Are you one of those labeled "Once lost, always lost"?

[Guest]

Was it the Baptist that coined the saying “Once saved always saved”? Well the Adventist in many circles have a thought that is said under their breath and behind closed doors. It’s “Once lost, always lost”. I sent a letter to Global Missions asking them if I sent my tithe monies to then would they retain it all or would they be required to sent a portion of it to the GC. I mentioned to them that I had lost confidence in my money previously sent through the regular channels. This simple request was ignored and instead a scathing rebuke to go find a church that I could find confidence in. By this answer it tells me that yes tithe money is off limits to Global Missions coffers. You would think I had asked the question “Have you stopped beating your wife”. So one should be very thankful if their concern is becoming less & less on what man thinks is proper behaviour and more & more on what does heaven require.

[Nicodema]

The only one I have ever labeled "once lost, always lost" is myself.

I know it is not true -- not as long as there is a sin-forgiving, life-changing, resurrecting Saviour -- but I still struggle with it and at times think it is.

[LifeHiscost]

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Nicodema said:

The only one I have ever labeled "once lost, always lost" is myself.

I know it is not true -- not as long as there is a sin-forgiving, life-changing, resurrecting Saviour

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[:"red"] "Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven." [/] Matthew 18:22 NASB

That's a principle, Nico, unless a person is so pharisaical it would be considered a cut off point in their personal forgiveness of anyone.

[:"red"] "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God." [/] 1 John 4:7 KJV

Look at it this way, Nico. God has a billion galaxies He keeps all in order, not excluding this one, though by outward appearance it may not look that way. If He is willing to give of Himself for that one lost sheep (you or me), don't you think He's capable of working out a plan to bring us back home with Him. And remember, love is a gift, not a birthright. You need not be concerned that it is undeserved. That is a given. It's really all about whether we will believe what God says about Himself. One of His statements I like is,

[:"red"] "

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love" [/] 1 John 4:8 KJV

And since God gave of Himself through His Son, the only way we could be lost is to refuse the gift.

[:"red"] "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life" [/] John 3:36 KJV

That's present tense!

[:"red"] "So whoever has God's Son has life; whoever does not have his Son does not have life" [/]

1 John 5:12 NLT

Jesus is the Father's gift to us. It's only necessary for us to open the gift.

[:"red"] "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life." [/] John 3:16 NLT

Not to be adamant about it, but whoever accepts that statement has His life. In accepting Him we have eternal life, beginning NOW! The actions required for continuance in that eternity are continually being worked out in us as we yield to His creative power.

[:"red"] "You have been regenerated (born again), not from a mortal origin (seed, sperm), but from one that is immortal by the ever living and lasting Word of God." [/] 1 Pet 1:23 AMP

[:"red"] "[Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight." [/] Philippians 2:13 AMP

[:"red"] "If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. " [/] 2 Timothy 2:13 NKJV

Keep the faith!

[jasd]

I heard a preacherman in Los Angeles once say whilst chompin’ on his ceegar, “If you are concerned about your salvation, it is evidence that the HS is wrasslin’ with you, you lucky blither. Take the opportunity to ‘make a deal’, a la Jacob. It isn’t everyone whom Gd wrass-uls with.”

However, careful, careful…, when you make a deal with Gd, He expects you to KEEP that deal.

Then again,

bein’s it was ‘bout 4 in the mornin’, I coulda been in my cups.

[Nicodema]

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jasd said:

I heard a preacherman in Los Angeles once say whilst chompin’ on his ceegar, “If you are concerned about your salvation, it is evidence that the HS is wrasslin’ with you, you lucky blither. Take the opportunity to ‘make a deal’, a la Jacob. It isn’t everyone whom Gd wrass-uls with.”

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The problem is trying to figure out whether the Holy Spirit is truly "wrasslin' with" me or whether I am simply experiencing the Esau effect: seeking repentance with tears and finding it not.

That's where they get you, every time.

Sometimes the only thing I can do is deal with it through purely human reasoning. To wit: if I decide to think / believe it is the Esau effect, no good can come of that. I will only be miserable and depressed, suicidal and far from God forever. On the other hand, if I decide to think / believe it is the Holy Spirit "wrasslin' with" me, sure, that might be purely a delusion on my part, but it will be a happier one, one that will, at the very least, lead me to the happier delusion that I can be right with God, which will make me feel better and live better.

Does that make any sense? In other words, if one is going to be lost anyway (if that were the absolute truth of the matter) then better to live in a delusion that brings happiness than a reality that only brings misery -- if it all ends the same in the end.

And if not, one might just wake on resurrection morning to find out the happy delusion was indeed the truth, and one had a real relationship with God all along. But not if one believes oneself lost for eternity here and now.

[Guest]

Nico you may have forgotten a few thing due to all the pliable Aaron's out there giving mixed signals to werrie pilgrims trying to find their way home.

#1. You feelings are NEVER a safe guide to follow, instead trust in all of heavens bidding as you will then be enabled to resist Satan’s suggestion that your case is hopeless. It is only Satan & his evil angels alone that are on schedule to die in the Lake Of Fire, but if any of us believes the whisperings of his to suggestion that our case is hopeless then we to will die. But as long as there is life, there is hope!!! But let me cut the CHASE and tell of Satan’s STRONGEST hold on us.

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August 10, 1915 Satan and Our Appetites

The Devil's Strongest Hold on Man--Irritating the Stomach and Weakening

the Brain--A Way of Escape Provided--All Heaven Looking On

By the late Mrs. E. G. White

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Rom. 12:1. {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 1}

In the ancient Jewish service, it was required that every sacrifice should be without blemish. We are God's workmanship; and we are "fearfully and wonderfully made." Ps. 139:14. There are many who are educated in the sciences, and are familiar with the theory of the truth, who do not understand the laws that govern their own being. God has given us facilities and talents; and it is our duty, as His sons and daughters, to make the best use of them. If we weaken these powers of mind or body by wrong habits, or indulgence of perverted appetite, it will be impossible for us to honor God as we should. {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 2}

Satan's Strongest Hold

We meet intemperance everywhere. We see it on the cars, the steamboats, and wherever we go; and we should ask ourselves what we are doing to rescue souls from the tempter's grasp. Satan is constantly on the alert to bring the race fully under his control. His strongest hold on man is through the appetite, and this he seeks to stimulate in every way possible. All unnatural excitants are harmful, and they cultivate the desire for liquor. {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 3}

I appeal to parents to begin with their children, and give them a right education. Seek to bring them up so that they shall have moral stamina to resist the evil that surrounds them. The lesson of self-control must begin with the child in its mother's arms. It must learn to restrain passionate temper, to bring its will into subjection, and to deny unhealthful cravings. {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 4}

Teach your children to abhor stimulants. Do not place luxurious dishes before the children,--spiced foods, rich gravies, cakes, and pastries. This highly seasoned food irritates the stomach, and causes a craving for still stronger stimulants. Furthermore, children are allowed to eat between meals; and by the time they are twelve or fourteen years of age, they are often confirmed dyspeptics. {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 5}

Under the irritating influence of fiery spices, as well as under that of strong drinks, the stomach becomes of a fiery red color. With the stomach in such a state, there is a craving for something more to meet the demands of the appetite, something stronger, and still stronger. Next you find your sons out on the street learning to smoke. It is a grievous lesson; it makes them deathly sick. Yet they press the matter through with a perseverance that would be praiseworthy in a better cause. {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 6}

Tobacco weakens the brain, and paralyzes its fine sensibilities. Its use excites a thirst for drink, and in very many cases, lays the foundation for the liquor habit. Its use is an inconvenient, expensive, unclean habit. The teachings of Christ, pointing to purity, self-denial, and temperance, all rebuke this defiling practice. When we think of the long fast that Jesus endured in the wilderness of temptation in order to break the power of appetite over man, we marvel that those who profess to be His followers can indulge in this habit. Is it for the glory of God for men to enfeeble the physical powers, confuse the brain, and yield the will to this narcotic poison? What right have they to mar the image of God? {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 7}

A great responsibility rests upon us. We cannot render to God true service unless we present our bodies a living sacrifice. No one can be justified in marring this wonderfully intricate human organism. If we do this, not only do we suffer ourselves, but the evil is transmitted to our children. Can we wonder that the children who have such a legacy do not fear God? {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 8}

Wrong Example of Some

Ministers

How often do we see boys not more than eight years old, or younger, using tobacco! If you speak to them about it, they say, "My father uses it; and if it does him good, it will me." They point to the minister or the Sunday school superintendent, and say, "If such good men as these use it, surely I can." How can we expect anything else of the children with their inherited tendencies, while the older ones set them such an example? God pity the poor slave to these indulgences! {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 9}

Some urge that a man is not responsible for what he does under strong drink. When he places the cup to his lips, he makes himself responsible for all the deeds he commits while under its influence. {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 10}

It is important that those who make and execute the laws of our great nation should have their faculties unclouded. What about the judges and jurors, in whose hands rests the disposing of human life, and whose decisions may condemn the innocent, or turn the criminal loose upon society? Do they not need to have full control of their mental powers? Are they temperate in their habits? If not, they are not fit for such responsible positions. When the appetites are perverted, the mental powers are weakened, and there is danger that men will not rule justly. {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 11}

We can understand the value of the human soul only as we realize the greatness of the sacrifice made for its redemption. The word of God declares that we are not our own, that we are bought with a price. It is at an immense cost that we have been placed upon vantage ground, where we can find liberty from the bondage of sin wrought by the fall in Eden. Adam's sin plunged the race into hopeless misery; but by the sacrifice of the Son of God, a second probation was granted to man. {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 12}

A Way of Escape Provided

In the plan of redemption, a way of escape is provided for all who will avail themselves of it. God knew that it was impossible for man to overcome in his own strength, and He has provided help for him. How thankful we should be that a way is open for us, by which we can have access to the Father; that the gates are left ajar, so that beams of light from the glory within may shine upon those who will receive them! {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 13}

Christ began the work of redemption just where the ruin began. His first test was on the same point where Adam failed. It was through temptations addressed to the appetite that Satan had overcome a large proportion of the human race, and his success had made him feel that the control of this fallen planet was in his hands. But in Christ he found one who was able to resist him, and he left the field of battle a conquered foe. {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 14}

Jesus says, He "hath nothing in Me." John 14:30. His victory is an assurance that we too may come off victors in our conflicts with the enemy. But it is not our heavenly Father's purpose to save us without an effort on our part to cooperate with Christ. We must act our part; and divine power, uniting with our effort, will bring victory. {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 15}

Who will enter in through the gates into the city? -- Not those who declare that they cannot break the force of appetite. Christ has resisted the power of him who would hold us in bondage; though weakened by His long fast of forty days, He withstood temptation, and proved, by this act, that our cases are not hopeless. I know that we cannot obtain the victory alone; and how thankful we should be that we have a living Saviour, who is ready and willing to aid us! {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 16}

Reclaimed From His Hopeless Condition

I recall the case of a man in a congregation that I was once addressing. He was almost wrecked in body and mind by the use of liquor and tobacco. He was bowed down from the effects of dissipation, and his dress was in keeping with his shattered condition. To all appearance, he had gone too far to be reclaimed. But as I appealed to him to resist temptation in the strength of a risen Saviour, he rose tremblingly, and said, "You have an interest for me, and I will have an interest for myself." {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 17}

Six months afterward, he came to my house. I did not recognize him. With a countenance beaming with joy, and eyes overflowing with tears, he grasped my hand, and said, "You do not know my name, but you remember the man in an old blue coat, who rose in your congregation, and said that he would try to reform." I was astonished. He stood erect, and looked ten years younger. He had gone home from the meeting, and passed the long hours in prayer till the sun arose. It was a night of conflict; but, thank God, he came off the victor. This man could tell, by sad experience, of the bondage of those evil habits. He knew how to warn the youth of the dangers of contamination; and those who, like himself, had been overcome, he could point to Christ as the only source of help. {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 18}

The Mighty, Unfailing Helper

Intemperance is on the increase, in spite of the efforts to control it. We cannot be too earnest in seeking to hinder its progress, to raise the fallen, and shield the weak from temptation. With our feeble hands, we can do but little; but we have an unfailing Helper. We must not forget that the arm of Christ can reach to the depths of human woe and degradation. He can give us help to conquer even this terrible demon of intemperance. {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 19}

But it is in the home that the real work must begin. The greatest burden rests upon those who have the responsibility of educating the youth, of forming their character. Here is a work for mothers, in helping their children to form correct habits and pure tastes, to develop moral stamina, true moral worth. Teach them that they are not to be swayed by others, that they are not to yield to wrong influences, but to influence others for good, to ennoble and elevate those with whom they associate. Teach them that if they connect themselves with God, they will have strength from Him to resist the fiercest temptations. {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 20}

Not Registered as a Man

With every facility which has been placed within reach, he who does not resist temptation, is not registered in the books of heaven as a man. The Lord never places men in positions so trying that it is beyond their power to withstand evil. Divine power is ever ready to protect and strengthen him who has been made a partaker of the divine nature. {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 21}

Temptations to the indulgence of appetite possess a power which can be overcome only by the help that God can impart. But with every temptation, we have the promise of God that there shall be a way of escape. Why, then, are so many overcome? -- It is because they do not put their trust in God. They do not avail themselves of the means provided for their safety. The excuses offered for the gratification of perverted appetite are therefore of no weight with God. {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 22}

All Heaven is Watching

We want a share in the eternal inheritance. We want a place in the city of God, free from every impurity. All heaven is watching to see how we are fighting the battle against temptation. Let all who profess the name of Christ so walk before the world that they may teach, by example as well as by precept, the principle of true living. {ST, August 10, 1915 par. 23}

[Nicodema]

OK, well, I don't use liquor or tobacco ... I could do with a little dietary reform I suppose.

[LifeHiscost]

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Nicodema said:

OK, well, I don't use liquor or tobacco ... I could do with a little dietary reform I suppose.

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[:"red"] "Then Jesus called to the crowds and said, "Listen to what I say and try to understand. You are not defiled by what you eat; you are defiled by what you say and do."

Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you realize you offended the Pharisees by what you just said?"

Jesus replied, "Every plant not planted by my heavenly Father will be rooted up, so ignore them. They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch." [/]

Matt 15:10-14 NLT

[jasd]

>>…if I decide to think / believe it is the Holy Spirit "wrasslin' with" me, sure,

that might be purely a delusion on my part,…<<

Well, I’ve not yet seen a Pushme–Pullme beastie (and don’t think there is such a one). Writ seems to have applied a figurative to that fantastical -- a ‘house divided’; ipso…, if one’s desire is to the good and the right, I can hardly imagine it being other than HS doing the will of Gd the Father and Jesus the Advocate Redeemer. Were I you I would deal, --as Jacob did, (and be generous to yourself!).

That being said, and lacking wisdom, it is not within my ken to understand such as Esau’s sorrow. Gd forgive me for having exhausted life’s value upon ‘come bets’, rather than upon fruits of the Spirit. I am unable to qualitatively share upon a thing as this; further, I am also come, regrettably, too late to this game; per these remembered words,

“…on the October side of the hill.” --Eugene McCarthy

however, amended, October’s passed and hoarfrost rimed this morning rise

And…, even vesper shadows rising in the heath hasten me

so, let night descend and let passion consume the moonlight

leave only to the darkening midnight sky its argent sparkle

should’st evermore, Gd be true, and should’st I hope

mine, be more’s part than breath in that good night

Nicodema, does Gd wish that His children were all alike? not likely; …how does one conceive of a Gd desiring the worship of a sea of like automatons? Nahh, He’s bigger than you or I have capacity to imagine Him, and if Gd says His hand is not short that it cannot save, who are we to argue the point? Not to be that plebian but why not --we go with the flow? And why not, additionally,

recognize [observation] your individualism as your unique and personal gift, unlike others, --for your Gd? make glorious your gift to Him… after all, it is He who forms you as the potter does his workmanship. And if there are flaws, they too can have their own intrinsic, saving beauty. (I forge-weld patterned steel billets. Sometimes, when shaping one into a knife, I’ll take great pains to leave the naturally forming flaws --and will attempt to enhance them further. They bear the hallmarks of hand workmanship rather than machine stampings… that’s not a metaphoric attempt to validate sin against Gd ;-) but to acknowledge that He, likely, appreciates the scars our experiences leave upon us as Hallmarks, which glorify His name and witness to His saving grace…)

“Gd, if you’ll do such and such, I’ll do such and such.” okay? Deal? Copacetic! shazzam! (I suspect Gd wishes, hugely, to covenant with us, individually)

Me, I’m hoping to hear a clink, ka-chunk, ta-tat, tat-tat of a gear engaging, a hiss of a pneumatic hose, the gurp of a hydraulic connector, whirring giggies, or anything that will tell me the mechanics of Gestalt is kicking-in. Otherwise,

…my mother had better be a cup bearer up there!

>>And if not, one might just wake on resurrection morning to find out the happy delusion was indeed the truth, and one had a real relationship with God all along.<<

I don’t know from relationships, but it’s probable that a Being --multiple orders above our own feeble limitations, is pretty understanding (allowing us a very large grace-handicap) and forgiving when all is said and done. (comparatively, we’re at least two orders lower than Gd. That said, --two orders below that of Homo sapiens, dwell the order of insects. Mebbe, a Sky Chief several orders above us possesses a better appreciation of compassion --than that which we carbon units can wrap our "hearts in mind", {Nanci Griffith}, --around) Sounds to me like

an argument for absolute trust, and hope.

>>But not if one believes oneself lost for eternity here and now.<<

sshhh, on the qt… for fear I’ll resurrect memory of them, I cannot ever breathe my misdeeds; moreover, cannot even bring them to the ear of Gd --for fear of blasphemy… yet I got my hopes up.

I see where Gd has worked bunches forming your vessel and I, for one, am blessed the more because of it. That said,

if He’s the sort that quits upon half-measures, oops! We’re all in for a world of hurt!

[benherndon]

Quote:

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“…on the October side of the hill.” --Eugene McCarthy

however, amended, October’s passed and hoarfrost rimed this morning rise

And…, even vesper shadows rising in the heath hasten me

so, let night descend and let passion consume the moonlight

leave only to the darkening midnight sky its argent sparkle

should’st evermore, Gd be true, and should’st I hope

mine, be more’s part than breath in that good night

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>>>Neat! but most here are too young to appreciate it. Good on you, jasd!

[jasd]

In that the gesture is yours, it is prized.

Thank-you, Doctor.

jas.

[Guest]

A PUC graduate friend of mine that I studied Revelations messages with for 8 years was once asked to hold evening meetings in the St. Helena church after the pastor fell from the roof of the speculation house he was building and was waiting for bones to mend. My friend was already teaching in the adult SS class some of the truths you can read from my posts scatter all over this forum. These meeting were so well attended during the mid week with people driving 60 miles one way to attend a near full church. But the pastors wife put a stop to that true revival, after all she was in the same graduating class as the conference president and that should take care of this young “up-start” fishing in her husbands pond. This pliable Aaron did exactly that, now this was a long time before EMAILS that now seek to destroy ones reputation.. So he fired up the mimograph machine, sending a letter to every church in the state to call my friend a “off-shoot” [ even from the pulpit] as soon as he walked in their doors. Yes the black list they had back then was where this chorus was rehearsed. “Once lost, always lost”.

There are a few more verses added to this thought, but the bottom line is, you are not even worth saving! [Are you not thankful this is only according to them & not heaven?]

[wicklunds]

This is a sad but common theme is it not?

[Guest]

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wicklunds said:

This is a sad but common theme is it not?

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Do you mean the "common theme" of pastors moonlighting on licensed contractors building speculation houses on the side making them a three income family of only two people since his wife is now with preaching credentials from the conference? Or do you mean "the black list" floating around in cyber space? I am comfortable with both as I go by heaven list, not theirs. Also I can live with the double dipping of money from the conference, but it needs to be converted to real gold or silver because chucking paper money at "moles & bats" will not inflict much dammage when the time get ripe for their idols being flung with both hands.

[Gregory Matthews]

In regard to pastors taking second jobs: We have a real problem. The problem is that in some areas pastors are NOT paid enough to live near thier church, on a one income family. The cost of housing is just to high.

Some pastoral families deal with this by haveing the non-pastor spouse go to work.

Some deal with it by haveing the non-pastoral spouse go on the local church payroll. This often leads to problems. I am personally aware of a local church that was told in the interview by the incoming pastor, that he would not accept the position unless his wife was palced on the local payroll at a stated amount.

Some families, strongly feel that the woman should remain at home raising the small children. In some cases the husband than takes a second job. In others, the family lives as much as 100, or more, miles from the church that he pastors.

In some cases the Conference simply leaves the present pastor in position for 10, 15, 20 years.

Folks, there is a significant problem. There are no easy answers.

It is easy for people to shoot arrows, but much harder for them to actually walk in the mud and come resolve issues.

[Guest]

Gregory there is ALWAYS a solution when things are done according to heavens rules. The pastors quote correctly from the pulpit [the Lord will provide] for others to believe, he [i say "he" because there are no female pastors] is not exempt from being tested by this same yardstick. His duty is to follow divine counsel come hell or high water, there is a ram caught in the thicket near by. Leadership is always trying to improve on the truth by committeee meetings, when in 9 time out of 10 all they need to do is just follow orders. BUT... Then John 10 becomes their solution, which is fatal.

[Gregory Matthews]

I will just point out that typically people bellieve thathey are following God's instruction.

1) The women who stay home to care for children bellieve that they are doing so.

2) The pastors who live 100+ miles away, and do not take a second job, believe that they are doing so.

3) Conferences that openly allow their pastors to have second jobs to they can live near thier congregations believe that they are doing so.

Yes, Ed, I also happen to believe that God has a solution for all of this. I do not believe that we humans have such. So, this all means that I believe that it will not be resolved untill God resolves it.