Politics and the Holy Spirit

[CGMedley]

Church leaders are finding out that with growth comes change. How does the church address change? What are the political realities? How does the Holy Spirit lead the church? Robert McIver addresses these issues in this week's Adventist Review.

http://www.adventistreview.org/2005-1523/story5.html

[Dr. Shane]

Why is it that the church is growing by leaps and bounds in Latin America and Africa but is shrinking in the western nations? I have some observations:

• Westerns are afraid to offend others with their faith
• Wseterns do not invite friends to church with them
• Western church members attend church less often (often only on Sabbath morning.)
• Due to their fear of offending others, westerns tend not to do Bible studies with their friends
• Western churches tend to be less active (Pathfinders, prayer meeting, women's ministries, AY, etc.)
• Western church socials tend to be worldly (music, activities, conversations)

[Bravus]

I think those observations are correct as far as they go, and in particular the idea of more active churches that meet more often and offer more, Shane, but there are at least 3 other issues that I think are needed to fully understand the situation:

1. Not going to say a lot about this, but those in the West have also been turned off by arrogant, judgemental, oppressive religion, and in most cases the largest struggle we face in sharing our faith is undoing some of that damage.

2. We're clearly doing something wrong in the West in terms of evangelism, based on success rates (and although I'm generally averse to measuring things only with numbers, salvation numbers are pretty crucial!) But there are characteristics of Westerners (individualism, scientism, the feeling of being rich and increased with goods and needing nothing, etc) that make the challenge different and more difficult.

3. I think it's wishful thinking to assume that simply transplanting the methods used in developing countries to the developed world (and, ironically, those methods were originally transplanted from the West last century) is going to lead to a revival of primitive godliness in the West. What we're doing isn't working, but for excellent reasons of cultural difference, just switching to what workes in other times and places is unlikely to work either.

I do believe that we have taken away too much of th emystery and majesty of God from our churches, and made Him too familiar, and also that our churches have tried to accommodate people by demanding less of them, when it's clear that the churches that are growing are demanding *more* of people.

[Dr. Shane]

If you listen to yourself you seem to be saying that what has worked in the past and what continues to work in other areas, will not work here and now. If we look at successful evangelical churches in our own culture, we find they are doing exactly what has been succussful for us in the past and continues to be successful for us in other places.

Charasmictic churches, like Assembly of God and Pentecostals, have been very successful in evangelism in the West. The United Methodist Church of America and the Southern Baptisit church are also successful with individual evangelism. These denominations continue to grow and build more buildings because of their outreach and activity. The Mormons and Jehova Witnesses also successfully use these methods.

Those are the two basic ingredients to evangelism. Outreach and Activity . Outreach gets our message out. This is done by prison ministry, TV, radio, one-on-one Bible studies, inviting friends to church/prayer meeting and evangelistic seminars. Western Adventists tend to want the church leadership and clergy to do this. In developing countries the lay people do most of this. Once the church attracts new members, there needs to be activities. A list of activities can be almost endless. Prayer meetings, church socials, youth meetings, beginner classes, after-school programs, marriage retreats, VBS, summer camps, Pathfinders, women's ministries, cooking classes, aerobic classes, choirs, drama teams, nature hiking, can-food collecting, campmeetings, weekend revials, hay rides, etc. etc. etc.

The western Adventist church is weak on lay evangelsim (we leave it to the "professionals") and we are weak in many church activities. Our counterparts in other denominations and in developing countries show us just how wrong we are.

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those in the West have also been turned off by arrogant, judgemental, oppressive religion, and in most cases the largest struggle we face in sharing our faith is undoing some of that damage.

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People are dying in a sinful world. The are headed to hell! How much damage can we do? While we wait until we can do it "right" hundreds of people we could have witnessed to are lost. I don't think we really need to worry about doing damage. The devil is doing a lot of damage to them already and no matter how we witness the devil will try to twist it and use it against us. We just have to pray, trust God and let His Holy Spirit work with our efforts.

[Bravus]

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If you listen to yourself you seem to be saying that what has worked in the past and what continues to work in other areas, will not work here and now.

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Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. The culture of North America in particular has undergone dramatic changes in the past 30 years that make it significantly different from both what it was before and what the culture is in other coountries now.

I agree with you that the principles are outreach and activity, I just think the outreach and activity have to be fitted to the culture or they will be ineffective. That doesn't mean being 'conformed to the world', it means speaking a language people can understand.

One example: in the past, it was possible to argue people into the church through interpretations of Bible prophecy. This worked because most people believed in the Bible. Now, you can't start that discussion until you've first answered the question "where does the Bible come from and why should I believe it?" It's a dramatic cultural difference that requires a difference of approach, and if we stick with the same old approach we will be unable to reach a huge number of people.

[Nicodema]

Bravus, I totally agree with your insights.

Shane, I also agree with your initial post that had the bullet points. Those are all valid points.

Putting the two together, a picture emerges that we would do well to look at carefully. Shane has outlined the What; Bravus the Why.

Now, how do we address the Solution?

[Dr. Shane]

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you can't start that discussion until you've first answered the question "where does the Bible come from and why should I believe it?"

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And we see other Prostestant denominations doing an excellent job of that. Campus Crusade for Christ starts out with the historical evidence for the reliability of the Bible. Its founder, Josh McDowel, has an excellent book named Evidence That Demands A Verdict. Other Protestant groups are focusing on evidence which supports creation and the flood.

Our outreach also needs to meet people's needs. This is another area that other churches like Baptists and Lutherans are doing well. The Adventist church is saddly ( saddly ) lacking in Christian counselors. Yet Baptist, Catholic and Lutheran counselors provide their services to the public and send thousands to their churches annually. People need practical Christianity. The Adventist church has touched this area via 3ABN but nothing like what we see other denominations doing.

[Guest]

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People need practical Christianity.

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Practical Christianity is definitely number one on my list. And it needs to begin with the flock, the existing church body. I for one would not bring anyone into my church as I do not see it as being able to meet the needs of the folk who already attend. It is the same, week in week out. Go to church, come home, go to church next week and come home again. There has to be more to Christianity than this. It has gotten to the stage where I get a greater blessing by staying at home and reading my bible. At church there is no fellowship, no one to share your burdens with and no one to support and uplift you. How can outreach be successful when all of these things are missing?

I have not attended church for 4 weeks now and no one gives a damn. “Out of sight out of mind.”

[Dr. Shane]

I belong to an awesome church right now. I have never belonged to a better one. In fact, I didn't even know that there existed Adventist churches this good. It is extreamely active and loving. One cannot just slip in and out. The members do not permit it. Everyone is greeted and asked how they are doing. When we miss a couple of Sabbaths (for whatever reason) the paster will be calling us to ask how we are doing. There is potluck every sabbath for visitors and there are members with eagle eyes to make sure no visitor slips in and out without notice. Our church is extreamely active with activities.

Now if your church isn't like this maybe you can take a little advice from the high-pitched, voiced singer with Jesus-juice. Micheal Jackson sang a song that said, "If you want to make the world a better place, take a look at yourself and make that change." Our nominating committee is now meeting and I voluntered to be on the social committee and teach the junior or earliteen class.

[Guest]

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If you want to make the world a better place, take a look at yourself and make that change

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Shane, statements like this just make me want to puke (sorry, but that is how I feel). It is the typical blame the victim attitude that is rife within all denominations. It says “there is nothing wrong with the church; it is you who has the problem.”

I am glad, however, that you made the statement as it enabled me to have a good look at myself. I did, at first, think perhaps the problem was me. However, after a good long look at how I participate in the church and community, I decided that I was not the problem.

I have been a member of my church for just over one year. I have been bulletin secretary for 3 ½ years. I have been running a weekly art group through the church for 2 ½ years. As well, when the need arises, I visit and support the ladies in my art group (none are Adventists). I also make house calls to help older folk with their computer problems. I have befriended folk in the church who no one else wants anything to do with. One of these folk was epileptic, drug dependent and had gender issues. The other was recently separated from her deacon husband. Unfortunately, these folk are no longer in the church. I do not charge money for any of my services, it is all voluntary. As well, I spend time helping my mother who is blind. Furthermore, my husband tried, for one year, to get a men’s support group going in the church. Only two other men were interested and it eventually fell through.

Having looked at myself and seen that the problem is not me. What now?

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I belong to an awesome church right now. I have never belonged to a better one. In fact, I didn't even know that there existed Adventist churches this good.

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Yes, good churches are far and few between. Why is your church different and how did it become that way?

[Dr. Shane]

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It is the typical blame the victim attitude that is rife within all denominations.

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I am sorry you took my comment that way. I can sympathize with you. I have been in some very bad churches. I have been in churches so cold the ushers could have used ice skates. My point is that when life gives you lemons, make lemonade. Do what you can. We can only change the man in the mirror.

[Neil D]

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There has to be more to Christianity than this. It has gotten to the stage where I get a greater blessing by staying at home and reading my bible. At church there is no fellowship, no one to share your burdens with and no one to support and uplift you. How can outreach be successful when all of these things are missing?

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I am sure that there are others out there more qualified than me to answer this, but I will attempt to bring a solution to your problem.

In your following post, you mention meetting with others once a week. And this is part of the solution...that is, meeting with other Adventist/church members outside of your church on a weekly basis. This is where true fellowship/worship is experienced, not the church. Church is just icing on the cake, so to speak, where the real meat and potatoes is in fellowship in the home. This type of fellowship is also called "cell evangelism" and it's use is growing in our churches. It is also causing slow, but steady growth, as members control the group and what is brought into the conversation. But also true caring and concern and compassion is also shown in the group.

This maybe the answer to your question.