Is it 'evil' when Blacks + White worship together?

[Woody]

considering this quote:

Quote:

"If it should be recommended and generally practiced in all our Washington churches, that white and black believers assemble in the same house of worship, and be seated promiscuously in the building, many evils would be the result." {4MR 32.3}

What would those 'evils' be ?

[Ted Oplinger]

Would not that text center on the word, "promiscuously"? What did she mean by that word?

Did she mean it in the sexual sense? Considering the relations between the races at that time, I'd tend to think not.

Did she mean "without thought for the consequences, because it felt like the thing to do?" - like the attitude which attends the sexual meaning - then it places a huge difference in the meaning of what she wrote.

Like it or not, we are a diverse humanity. And, like it or not, we like to worship in the comfort of others just like "us" - and the word "us" can be defined in any number of different ways. Not all people groups, races or cultures worship in ways congruous to one another, or even acceptable to some. What boosts spirituality among some may well bring another group down. Even age groups within a peoples/culture bring an impact to this subject.

Being truly diverse in worship takes an enormous amount of forethought to continually pull it off.

Did EGW mean by this reference that we should take care in approaching the idea of combining races with forethought, rather than putting them all together, regardless of what either culture or the outside prevailing society thinks? Regardless of the consequences to the church body and reputation may come?

If that is indeed what she meant, then she is correct, in that many evils (like dissensions, splits, false accusations, misunderstandings, and the like) are avoided.

If I had to choose, I err on the side of edification of one for whom Christ also died - and choose to believe she was speaking to the bringing of two distinct cultures together without forethought, and doing so regardless of of outside society (on either side of the black/white question) thought.

I would not choose to believe she was advocating racism via labeling one side or the other as sexually promiscuous...as certain stereotypes continue to do today.

Food for thought, and

Blessings,

[JoeMo]

Quote:

If it should be recommended and generally practiced in all our Washington churches, that white and black believers assemble in the same house of worship, and be seated promiscuously in the building, many evils would be the result." {4MR 32.3}

And people wonder why I don't put too much credence on the "infallible" words of EGW ...See the above. If I were a conservative African-American and saw this quote, I would leave the church.

Didn't EGW imply somewhere that African-Americans were an "amalgamation"?

[phkrause]

Quote:

If it should be recommended and generally practiced in all our Washington churches, that white and black believers assemble in the same house of worship, and be seated promiscuously in the building, many evils would be the result." {4MR 32.3}

And people wonder why I don't put too much credence on the "infallible" words of EGW ...See the above. If I were a conservative African-American and saw this quote, I would leave the church.

Didn't EGW imply somewhere that African-Americans were an "amalgamation"?

All her statements need to be put in context, especially in the times she lived! Did Jesus speak out against a lot of the problems the Jews were having with the Romans? Was he inspired? There many African-American's that have seen these statements and place them into the context of the time that they were written.

[olger]

Ehm...no.

[Woody]

pk - I trust the Lord enough that if He made it clear that we were not to worship together - that when HE felt it was no longer necessary to segregate - that HE would send an 'all clear' message.

So far - I've not heard the all clear.

And I don't know that it should be our judgment to make after the Lord made it so clear to our prophet.

[JoeMo]

Hey pk,

Quote:

There many African-American's that have seen these statements and place them into the context of the time that they were written.

Ok; I can go along with that. But if EGW's statements were reflecting the prevailing culture of THEN, is it safe to say they no longer apply (Kinda like some of Paul's statements about women being quiet and covering their heads)? If they no longer apply, why do we need seperate conferences for Caucasians and African Americans?

We have probably 15 SDA congregations in Denver; and (to my knowledge) only one is a member of the black conference here. I would guess that there are far more people of color in the white conference than in the black conference.

Couldn't the church save a bunch of money by combining the duplicate conferences?

[Woody]

Good Points JoeMO

[phkrause]

Yes they probably could! What do you think will happen when and if the Black Conference's agree to disband and come together with the white conference's, and who do you think will lose there jobs?? Maybe you need to look into what started the division in the Church? and than see what the answers would be! Or do we really want to go in that direction? I think and believe if that's God's purpose in the last day's, as WO, it will happen.

[JoeMo]

Hey pk,

I'm a pretty old guy; and I understand that there are issues and politics going on in the stratosphere of Adventist leadership that I am completely unaware of, much less that I could comprehend. I also understand that there is a lot of inertia to overcome. IMO, there is a lot of arcane, out-of-date, and just plain erroneous and deceitful stuff that goes on in the church (although not enough to make me leave). But I have a limited and biased view of those issues; and I have an issue trusting any corporate man-made denomination. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong - I'm just being honest with you and sharing how I perceive things. In my idealistic mind, it should be fairly easy for the church to say "we were wrong", correct the situation and move on. I learned from the extreme drama over WO that I AM being overly idealistic.

[phkrause]

Well joeMo, if your an old guy, than what am I. LOL

[JoeMo]

Maybe we should start a private forum for just people over 60!

[cricket]

Would not that text center on the word, "promiscuously"? What did she mean by that word?

Did she mean it in the sexual sense? Considering the relations between the races at that time, I'd tend to think not.

[cricket]

There is a separate forum for the folks who identify with an "older generation". It's called the Silver Circle. Check it out.

[cricket]

Just to get the thread back on topic, bump.

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

Would not that text center on the word, "promiscuously"? What did she mean by that word?

Did she mean it in the sexual sense? Considering the relations between the races at that time, I'd tend to think not.

From an online word etymology source:

Quote:

Word Origin & History

promiscuous

c.1600, "consisting of a disorderly mixture of people or things," from L. promiscuus "mixed, indiscriminate," from pro- "forward" + miscere "to mix" (see mix). Meaning "indiscriminate in sexual relations" first recorded 1900, from promiscuity (1849, "indiscriminate mixture;"

I tend to agree with Ted on this one. I don't think EGW had any thoughts with regard to how the persons seated together would lead to sexual promiscuity. Rather, in that day and age, she was referring to an "indiscriminate mixture".

[joeb]

Ellen White's view on racial differences:

Quote:

Whoever of the human family give themselves to Christ, whoever hear the truth and obey it, become children of one family. The ignorant and the wise, the rich and the poor, the heathen and the slave, white or black,—Jesus paid the purchase money for their souls. If they believe on Him, His cleansing blood is applied to them. The black man’s name is written in the book of life beside the white man’s. All are one in Christ. Birth, station, nationality, or color cannot elevate or degrade men. The character makes the man. If a red man [American Indian], a Chinese, or an African gives his heart to God, in obedience and faith, Jesus loves him none the less for his color. He calls him His well-beloved brother.—Manuscript 6, 1891. {2SM 342.4}

Quote:

We are one brotherhood. No matter what the gain or the loss, we must act nobly and courageously in the sight of God and our Saviour. Let us as Christians who accept the principle that all men, white and black, are free and equal, adhere to this principle, and not be cowards in the face of the world, and in the face of the heavenly intelligences. We should treat the colored man just as respectfully as we would treat the white man. And we can now, by precept and example, win others to this course. {2SM 343.1}

[JoeMo]

Quote:

(off topic) I am pretty sure I AM older than both of you

I'm almost 63.

Are you older than Gibs? I think he was born the year they invented rope.