When does probation close for SDA?

[Restin]

An adventist friend told me that the very instant the Sunday Law is passed, probation closes for the SDA who make up the 144,000. Therefore, he claims, if you havn't become perfect and sinless by then, you'll be lost. I don't believe it works quite this way, but don't know where the SOP explains this. Please help!

[JoeMo]

Just my opinion, but the "close of probation" (at least before the 2nd coming) is a scare tactic to control people rather than an uplifting spiritual truth. I see nothing encouraging or uplifting about the concept - just a control tactic to instill fear in the Body. Fear is a tool of the devil; not God. God wants to woo us into loving Him; not scare us into loving Him. Fear and intimidation empower the devil to work in our lives in the same way that faith and love empower God to work in our lives.

If you read Rev. 20:7-14, satan gathers the nations to war against God PRIOR TO the judgement resurrection at the end of the millenium. I may be reading this wrong; but I infer from this that there is still sin on the earth during the millenium. How else could satan muster a huge army against God prior to the judgement resurrection?

I know I'm gonna hear about the SoP and EGW's writings cuz of the above statement. But when SoP disagrees with scripture, I'll go with scripture every time.

[phkrause]

I do believe you are reading that wrong JoeMo! First from what I've read and studied from Revelation, probation has closed before the millenium. Second when Jesus comes in the clouds at the second coming he brings is reward for those that are being saved, those that have died will rise first and than those that are alive will be taken up to heaven at the being of the Millenium not the end. And if you read some more all those that are alive when Jesus comes and are not going to heaven they will call the mountains and rocks to fall on them. Third all the earth will be desolate for those 1000 years that the saved will be in heaven wondering and asking why certain ones are not there and others are! Satan will be the only one alive and roaming to see what he has done. The second resurrection JoeMo, will be those that have not gone to heaven. And if you read EGWs writings of these events you will see she does agree with Scripture.

[Gail]

How can there be sin on the earth during the millenium when the wicked are slain by Jesus' coming? (I believe this to happen through the glory of Jesus' coming)

[phkrause]

How can there be sin on the earth during the millenium when the wicked are slain by Jesus' coming? (I believe this to happen through the glory of Jesus' coming)

[Gail]

An adventist friend told me that the very instant the Sunday Law is passed, probation closes for the SDA who make up the 144,000. Therefore, he claims, if you havn't become perfect and sinless by then, you'll be lost. I don't believe it works quite this way, but don't know where the SOP explains this. Please help!

Personally I don't feel it will be the instant the Sunday laws are passed, for people will need to be tested on it to see how they will choose and where their allegiance will lie- with God in obedience to ALL of His commandments, or with the system which is set up in substitute to it.

I do feel that the Holy Spirit will be with God's people so that they reflect Christ's character. The Holy Spirit will HAVE to help us- how else can we stand in such a day? This finishing of the work in us will likely be a by-product of the latter rain. It is the ripening of the believers' faith.

[JoeMo]

Gail and ph,

I'm just reading from the chronological order of events as written in Revelation chapter 20. I'm not claiming to be correct; I'm just saying what is written. I agree that the earth is desolate; and probably extremely depopulated; but nowhere does scripture say (that I can find, at least) that it is lifeless. I know there are places in scripture where one can infer the end of probation. I know that SoP says that the millenium is in heaven; but I don't find anything in scripture that confirms that. Are we inferring correctly, or reading into scripture the things that we have been taught rather than what the Word actually says?

Again, I ask the question - from where is satan gathering these hordes of people to attack the New Jerusalem PRIOR TO the second resurrection if there is not still sin and sinners on the earth? And if there is still sin and sinners; how could there have been an end of probation? I'm not saying I'm right and everyone else is wrong; just show me from scripture where I'm wrong.

[Gail]

Revelation is not as chronological as it can seem to be... Some of it goes over events and tell them another way, enlarging the details. Sometimes there seems to be interludes stuck in.

Those who take part in the first resurrection are blessed and holy. They would correspond to those who are resurrected to eternal life (John 5:29). The rest of the dead lived not until the end of the 1000 years. So at the end of the 1000 years Satan will have all of his followers on hand to give it one last shot.

[Gail]

Restin, I don't mean to make it sound like the Sunday law ordeal isn't urgent, because I think it is present truth.

But we need to remember that God is FOR us. When He judges nations or the earth, He does it in favour of His children. We must trust in His safety, in the life and shed blood (merits) of Jesus, our Saviour. Everyday we must do this, trust in Him and believe that He can save to the uttermost.

We need to be at peace with God NOW. You may not have a tomorrow... A good reason why setting dates is not a good idea because it gives a sort of false security and may delay a commitment to Him.

But one shouldn't delay coming to Jesus now because it is needful and important that the former rain does its work before the latter rain of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit works in full glory. What that means is that we can be (and should be) walking in joy, patience and truth and holiness now.

It is a blessed thing to walk with Christ, even in trials and sorrow Why wait?

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Revelation is not as chronological as it can seem to be... Some of it goes over events and tell them another way, enlarging the details. Sometimes there seems to be interludes stuck in.

I agree to a certain extent in that Revelation repeats and enlarges the story at least three times from Chapter 5 through the end of the book. But, when reading just 7 verses in Chapter 20, it makes perfect sense to me that the events in these 7 verses are chronological.

I said before that we (at least I) don't always read what the word says. I carry my baggage into how I intperpret it. For example:

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:15)

It does not say everyone who was raised at the end of the millenium were cast into the lake of fire; it says "whosoever was not found written in the book of life.

Is it possible that there will be people who were not raised at the 2nd coming who will receive etrnal life at the second resurrection? Could these be the descendants of the few who survived the first coming?

I'm not saying I'm right. I just started seeing things the way I have presented them a few months ago. Until I read what it said rather than what others taught me that it said, I saw things the same way you and phk have presented them here. Now I'm not sure...

[Gail]

I can't see any survivors of the 2nd Coming other than those resurrected joining those who are alive and remaining at that time to be caught up in the air. You would need a whole bunch of Moseses (in character) to be able to withstand that glory.

What made you think there would be survivors?

If any survive they would have to remain in a world that had gone through a holocaust, after the plagues and when the "powers of heaven shall be shaken," whatever that stands for. Those who turn against the whore power shall also wreak havoc. Who knows if the earth will even be inhabitable after Jesus comes until after it is cleansed in that last hot fire?

[Gail]

What made you think there would be survivors?

When I ask that I am just intrigued, not trying to offend you or anything. I'm interested in where you are coming from.

[Woody]

Quote:

I do feel that the Holy Spirit will be with God's people so that they reflect Christ's character. The Holy Spirit will HAVE to help us- how else can we stand in such a day?

Yes. We can have total assurance that whatever is required of us - the Holy Spirit will work a miracle in our lives and we shall endure.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

What made you think there would be survivors?

The fact that Rev. 20:7-9 says:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

The Bible seems to say this happened before the 2nd resurrection (that doesn't seem to happen until Rev. 20:12-13.

The people who attack the New Jerusalem seem to be people who are alive and living outside of the great City BEFORE the second resurrection. They also seem to be sinners. Who else could they be but the descendants of survivors of the 1st coming? How could they be sinners if all sinners were destroyed at the 2nd coming?

BTW - You don't need to worry about offending me. You never EVER have - why would I think you would start now? You are one of the most awesome people on CA. I have nothing but respect for you!

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I don't believe it works quite this way, but don't know where the SOP explains this. Please help!

Is this thread helping you out?

I guess you gotta be careful what you ask for, huh?

[Gail]

I see! I don't see it as being before the second resurrection but after it. The wicked are raised to receive their reward but not until Satan rounds them up one more time. He is gathering them to battle, but the time of battle was over with the coming of Jesus.

We know they are the wicked, because they are surrounding the city and then fire comes down to destroy them. God is not going to send fire down on His children.

That makes sense to me...

There is a lot of grey area in Revelation but this wasn't one of them for me... The Spirit gives light and it is still unfolding. I have seen some changes in the last few years in people's understanding of the book. So- let's all keep reading!

[JoeMo]

No big deal. I don't think it's a salvational issue. I'm kinda passionate about it simply becuase my opinion on the subject is a new thought for me. There are other things I have been taught that I don't see in scripture, either; but those are topics for other threads!

[Gail]

At least someone's thinking!!

I have a feeling that we won't know how Revelation will entirely play out until it does. I don't see it as salvational, either, unless one accepts the mark of the beast. Then it does become salvational :)

[Woody]

Quote:

At least someone's thinking!

I appreciate that JoeMo does that.

[debbym]

i think your probation ends when you die.

eventually before Christ comes everyone will have made their decision, probation closes for you when your decision is settled.

if you are decided for Christ there is no more reason for probation.

if you have firmly decided against Christ there is no more reason for probation.

i don't k ow if there is another more contemporary word, or expression to talk about this.

isn't probation a time for making up your mind?

[BobRyan]

An adventist friend told me that the very instant the Sunday Law is passed, probation closes for the SDA who make up the 144,000. Therefore, he claims, if you havn't become perfect and sinless by then, you'll be lost. I don't believe it works quite this way, but don't know where the SOP explains this. Please help!

[JoeMo]

Hi debbym; welcome!

a couple comments on your post:

Quote:

if you are decided for Christ there is no more reason for probation.

Great thought! As long as we believe that Jesus is who He claims to be and are relying on God's grace for salvation, probation is not needed - our salvation is assured.

Quote:

if you have firmly decided against Christ there is no more reason for probation.

I respectfully disagree with this statement. Christianity is the the only religion in the world where our God pursues us. He never gives up on us! Who knows what awesome manifestations He will use to convince the ungodly to put their love and trust in Him!

Hope to see you around more!

Blessings, JoeMo

[Kevin H]

i think your probation ends when you die.

eventually before Christ comes everyone will have made their decision, probation closes for you when your decision is settled.

if you are decided for Christ there is no more reason for probation.

if you have firmly decided against Christ there is no more reason for probation.

i don't k ow if there is another more contemporary word, or expression to talk about this.

isn't probation a time for making up your mind?

Excellent, thank you!

The purpose of the Sunday Law(which may not play out exactly the way it has developed in Adventist tradition) is the application of the test for the Christian world. The bigger issue is our attitude towards conversion/justification and Santification. A willingness to trust and grow in Jesus in one group and the other group is split between those wanting to be saved by their own works and those wanting to be saved in their sins.

The increased work by demons and increased work by the Holy Spirit, natural disasters, the developing world state, giving up our freedoms to allow for more security in the world state, however Sunday laws will be in this system, will be putting more pressure on us to either turn to Jesus to help us through or to do what ever we can on our own. These acts speed up our choices but we close our own probabition. The anouncement in Revelation is "Let" or "Allow" thosw who are...continue to be... God is recognizing that we made the choice and have become settled into our ways.

I don't have the quote in front of me, but I remember reading where we do not know exactly when probation closes, that it will be a day just like any other day with us doing our routine tasks. But as people are set to either offer others self sacrificing love, or living with complete selfishness it will cause more problems here.

At the Second coming as that small black cloud about half the size of a man's hand gets closer and more glorious and we see Jesus in person, the whole world expirences the worst moment in history as we see the contrast between ourselves and the purity of the one on the throne. We, all of us, are going to ask "Who shall be able to stand?" there is a moment of aweful silence as the angels stop their singing, then Jesus says (or sings) "My grace is sufficient for you!" Now he does not say "My grace is sufficient for some of you... let me see if you are one who my grace is sufficient for or not" he tells each and every one of us "My grace is sufficient for you"

However despite these words from Jesus himself, we see people responding two ways. One group has their fear melt into ever lasting joy as we say "Yes, this is our friend Jesus, his grace is sufficient for me! This is my God and he will save me!" But the other group does not believe Jesus, they convinced themselves that Jesus is lieing and they run to the rocks and caves and say "Fall on us and hide us from the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb"

I have gone into more detail about hell fire on other threads here, but at the end of the thousand years (and the term thousand years is an educational term meaning that the teacher sees it as as important topic so he is giving all the time in the world for his students to understand. This is the time we are in heaven asking Jesus and our angels, yes about why some people are not there, but I think even more so, why our lifes went one way instead of another. On earth is is where Satan and the Demons have a chance to see what their choices did. If all is understood and it only took 795 years, Jesus is not going to say "let's twiddle our thumb for the next 105 years" and if 999 years 359 days have past and we are still asking questions Jesus won't say "Hurry up we only have a few days left")

This is my speculation, but I would not be surprised if at the end of the 1000 years as Satan and the demons see the results of their actions and how ugly evil is (they have been too busy playing with evil that they have not taken the time to realize what they are playing with) that they wish that they could have a second chance. So they get the second chance as the lost are raised. But instead of changing Satan and the demons discover that they developed their personalities and they just continue to lie and deceive. They try to take the holy city by force and fire comes down from God out of heaven....

Now I do not believe this fire is the same stuff as what you get when you light a match or see a volcanno. I believe that the Bible and Mrs. White teach this to be the fire of the visible pressence, glory, beauty and love of God. Everyone sees what Moses was not allowed to see, the front of God. A moment similar to that moment when we see Jesus and asked "Who shall be able to stand?" We have been burning in that fire from that moment and through out the 1000 years and it continues to be heaven for us.

For the lost this glory is a consuming fire as they are in a stale mate of being overwhelmingly attracted to Jesus and wanting to be with Jesus, their deepest desire is to be like and with Jesus, yet they formed a character of constantly rejecting the Holy Spirit's pleading. They want to come but won't. They deveoped characters of being unforgiving, thus they cannot conseve how God can forgive them. They know how they used others and know that God can see the deepest darkest secrets in their minds and want to pull back from the only source of life. Yet Jesus is overwhelmingly attractive, their deepest desire the one they long to be with. This hell of wanting to come but refusing to quite litterally tears them appart and kills them.

I hope this helps

[Kevin H]

Hi debbym; welcome!

a couple comments on your post:

Quote:

if you are decided for Christ there is no more reason for probation.

Great thought! As long as we believe that Jesus is who He claims to be and are relying on God's grace for salvation, probation is not needed - our salvation is assured.

Quote:

if you have firmly decided against Christ there is no more reason for probation.

I respectfully disagree with this statement. Christianity is the the only religion in the world where our God pursues us. He never gives up on us! Who knows what awesome manifestations He will use to convince the ungodly to put their love and trust in Him!

Hope to see you around more!

Blessings, JoeMo

Actually I see it both ways JoeMo: Those at the close of probation closed probation on themselves, but that does not stop God from persueing them. A big reason why hell is hell is because it is not in God's nature to give up on them. The Holy Spirit is still drawing them, but they are firm in their resistance. As I so often describe hell, Jesus is their deepest desire, overwhemingly attracting them, there is nothing they want more than to be with and like Jesus. However they have developed a habit of refusing to yield to the Holy Spirit's pleading, a habit of refusing to come to Jesus. This stalmate between their overwhelming desire to come to Jesus and their set character of abolutely refusing to is what makes hell hell and what becomes so overwhelming that it destroys them

[JoeMo]

Good points, Kevin. It appears from a previous post that you at least consider the possibility that Jesus and the Father are misrepresented to some people as mean, arbitrary, inconsistent, and/or weak overseers rather than loving supportive Family. This may give people an incorrect view of the Deity that is never clarified during their natural lives. I would like to believe that everyone who ever lived would get a chance to see Jesus and the Father accurately so that they can make an informed decision of whether or not to accept them before being saved or burned. It seems unfair for people to be judged and executed based on misinformation.