Christian Feminism

[Tom Wetmore]

Read, then discuss:

http://www.fromtwotoone.com/2012/11/christian-feminism.html

[cricket]

Sure appreciate this woman's blog post on Christian Feminism. Though I haven't weighed in on the discussion of Women's Ordination (and don't really plan to do so), I appreciate that someone has taken the time to really spell out that Christian Feminism isn't about empowering women to take away powers from men. But rather it is (at the very least) about empowering women to be the WHOLE creatures that God intended them to be.

Thanks for sharing this link, Tom.

[joeb]

Sure appreciate this woman's blog post on Christian Feminism. Though I haven't weighed in on the discussion of Women's Ordination (and don't really plan to do so), I appreciate that someone has taken the time to really spell out that Christian Feminism isn't about empowering women to take away powers from men. But rather it is (at the very least) about empowering women to be the WHOLE creatures that God intended them to be.

Thanks for sharing this link, Tom.

I guess we need a Christian masculinism movement too....

All right, enough sarcasm.

I don't understand the need. To me, God created us as equal, and then due to sin God said one partner needed to be subordinate to the other. He made the choice as to who was to be subordinate, not me, nor any other man.

That said, I consider my wife to be fully my equal. She's bright, a hard worker, generous, principled, and loving. I find this to be nothing more than what we are told in Ephesians 5:23-33.

Why do we need an entire movement for this. All we need to do is teach, and practice, what the Bible tells us on the subject of men and women.... The message never changed from creation to the NT. The man and the woman in a marriage were to be one. Since that can't happen if one person tries to dominate the other I don't see the need for Christians to think we need a feminist movement any more than we need a masculinism movement. We need a Bible-based Christian movement of husbands and wives dedicated to loving God and obeying Him. When we have that, all other issues will be resolved.

I'm sorry if that's too simplistic for some people, but the only reason there are problems is because we haven't followed God as we should.

[OzarkWoman]

I guess we need a Christian masculinism movement too....

Actually, that might not be a bad idea, as I can name a couple pastors that are NOT the true head of their homes or churches. Their wives are the ones who control everything.

[cricket]

Originally Posted By: cricket

Sure appreciate this woman's blog post on Christian Feminism. Though I haven't weighed in on the discussion of Women's Ordination (and don't really plan to do so), I appreciate that someone has taken the time to really spell out that Christian Feminism isn't about empowering women to take away powers from men. But rather it is (at the very least) about empowering women to be the WHOLE creatures that God intended them to be.

Thanks for sharing this link, Tom.

I guess we need a Christian masculinism movement too....

All right, enough sarcasm.

I don't understand the need. To me, God created us as equal, and then due to sin God said one partner needed to be subordinate to the other. He made the choice as to who was to be subordinate, not me, nor any other man.

That said, I consider my wife to be fully my equal. She's bright, a hard worker, generous, principled, and loving. I find this to be nothing more than what we are told in Ephesians 5:23-33.

Why do we need an entire movement for this. All we need to do is teach, and practice, what the Bible tells us on the subject of men and women.... The message never changed from creation to the NT. The man and the woman in a marriage were to be one. Since that can't happen if one person tries to dominate the other I don't see the need for Christians to think we need a feminist movement any more than we need a masculinism movement. We need a Bible-based Christian movement of husbands and wives dedicated to loving God and obeying Him. When we have that, all other issues will be resolved.

I'm sorry if that's too simplistic for some people, but the only reason there are problems is because we haven't followed God as we should.

Did you read the blog post, joeb? Answer honestly. God is watching.

[debbym]

Quote:

I guess we need a Christian masculinism movement too....

All right, enough sarcasm.

I don't understand the need. To me, God created us as equal, and then due to sin God said one partner needed to be subordinate to the other. He made the choice as to who was to be subordinate, not me, nor any other man.

That said, I consider my wife to be fully my equal. She's bright, a hard worker, generous, principled, and loving. I find this to be nothing more than what we are told in Ephesians 5:23-33.

Why do we need an entire movement for this. All we need to do is teach, and practice, what the Bible tells us on the subject of men and women

i believe there are a lot of men's support and reinforcement to address men's insecurities. Men's prayer groups, men's retreates, men's breakfasts, men's clubs, use to be most paid positions were all held by men, so men were being paid by men, and given wage increases, and promotions. all these things have for generations been reinforcing men.

women for the longest time were only the property of men, so we have had a long ways to go to become equal. and part of what reinforced men, was women being subservient. This was giving men a position which i think tempted them to take more power and authority then God himself had given. Then women were often and casually beaten by men, and yelled at, and mistreated in a variety of ways. Whatever it took for men to feel more powerful we did it.

Now it seems whenever women are given more power, and this is not to supersede men, but only being equal, men can still feel less powerful.

I hope none of my female friends husbands wish for my subservience. I think male headship is about the home and the family.

[joeb]

Quote:

I guess we need a Christian masculinism movement too....

All right, enough sarcasm.

I don't understand the need. To me, God created us as equal, and then due to sin God said one partner needed to be subordinate to the other. He made the choice as to who was to be subordinate, not me, nor any other man.

That said, I consider my wife to be fully my equal. She's bright, a hard worker, generous, principled, and loving. I find this to be nothing more than what we are told in Ephesians 5:23-33.

Why do we need an entire movement for this. All we need to do is teach, and practice, what the Bible tells us on the subject of men and women

i believe there are a lot of men's support and reinforcement to address men's insecurities. Men's prayer groups, men's retreates, men's breakfasts, men's clubs, use to be most paid positions were all held by men, so men were being paid by men, and given wage increases, and promotions. all these things have for generations been reinforcing men.

women for the longest time were only the property of men, so we have had a long ways to go to become equal. and part of what reinforced men, was women being subservient. This was giving men a position which i think tempted them to take more power and authority then God himself had given. Then women were often and casually beaten by men, and yelled at, and mistreated in a variety of ways. Whatever it took for men to feel more powerful we did it.

Now it seems whenever women are given more power, and this is not to supersede men, but only being equal, men can still feel less powerful.

I hope none of my female friends husbands wish for my subservience. I think male headship is about the home and the family.

Since that was addressed to me, just what gave you the idea that I'm intimidated/offended by a woman in a position of authority or would think that someone else's wife or some single woman should be subordinate to me?

Seems to me your entire post was a straw man as you're addressing something I never said I believed or even come close to thinking.

[Johann]

In my country there is a strong feminism. They have achieved a law that forbids women from appearing naked in places of entertainment because that degrades the dignity of a woman and appeals to the lower instincts in men. Therefore, the law concludes, such appearance of a naked women makes the man consider any women an easy pray for rape.

[debbym]

Quote:

Poster: joeb

Since that was addressed to me, just what gave you the idea that I'm intimidated/offended by a woman in a position of authority or would think that someone else's wife or some single woman should be subordinate to me?

Seems to me your entire post was a straw man as you're addressing something I never said I believed or even come close to thinking.

Joeb,

i don't think you are like that at all. you just mentioned you did not see why there was any need for any feminist movement.

I described how men have been reinforcing men, and we do indeed have a patriarchal society, and women still do not have equal rights in this country...

i briefly sketched how women have historically been considered property, much longer then they have been considered individuals with rights rather then objects which are to fulfill the will of males.

whether you wish to consider the reality or not, we remain in a male dominated world. Do you know of any battered men's shelters?

Do be informed, we have SDA males who feel females are to be in subordination to males every where, much like children are to be in subjection to adults. Women's ordination is the opposite of women's sub-ordination.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage

American women won the vote August 26, 1920 with the passage of the 19th Amendment. Less then 100 years of the last 6000 years women have obtained voting rights to be represented.

Christian women fought for social change for voting rights and it was an arduous and painful exhausting struggle, even for women to have a vote.

I am not sure merely saying that we just need to follow the bible, will be the answer to address the need for social change for the world. Slavery was not ended by people just deciding to teach what the bible says about slavery. it was a huge struggle, with bloodshed, and protests, an unbelievable endeavor, to bring about social change. Are you thankful we do not have slavery today? do you appreciate the struggles others endured for this social change?

Equality for men and women is also a social change that is being fought for. and i believe it may even be a greater struggle to obtain. The patriarchal attitudes have been so deeply reinforced and maintained, every effort so far has resulted in minimal change.

One could conclude then that because of this it is God's will, but i differ. Slavery was not God's will and it was so hard to bring about the change. This was because of the love of power, and wealth. And because of the difficulty human beings have to experience a change in thinking and understanding.

Look how hard it was for the disciples to understand that Jesus did not come to deliver them as Jewish men from the power of the galling Roman male authority. How many women suffered in Jewish homes, from their men who were hating the domination of the Roman soldiers? This is about human nature, and social change.

In Christian homes then, the power of the Roman Yoke no longer caused such pain in the men, they submitted to indignities in peace. They accepted, and turned the other cheek, and came home in peace to their wives, even though the politics and domination had not changed. How many husbands do this when they are bucked around and dis-empowered at work, and come home in peace to their wives, free in Christ?

If we could just end the court system and prison system by teaching the Bible, i think we would, but human nature says, we need to have in place a system for restraining evil, and protecting people. Social needs still have to be addressed, and this includes the rights and safety of women.

just looking at the reality of the need for women's rights.

In peace,

deb

[olger]

The 60's is where all this started.. Within a remarkably brief period of time the 60's caused a cataclysmic change of our society. Rejection of authority, adoption of feminism, and the coming age of androgyny are only a few of the battlefronts against Creational distinctions (see June K. Singer's Androgyny: The Opposites Within, 1976.

As to feminism, it fails to see God's will for woman. It believes the lie for instance that a five-foot deputy sheriffette with a gun is equal to a man in strength. That's messed up.

Let's consider the extreme anti-masculine strand of feminism that has been pervasive in Scandinavia for decades. The male protection instinct doesn’t take action because Scandinavian women have worked tirelessly to eradicate it, together with everything else that smacks of traditional masculinity. Because of this, feminism has greatly weakened Scandinavia, and perhaps Western civilization as whole.

Judging from the rhetoric of many feminists, all the oppression in the world comes from Western men, who are "oppressing" both women and non-Western men. To the liberal mind, Muslim immigrants are “fellow victims” of this bias. Many Western Universities have courses filled with hate against men that would be unthinkable the other way around. It is a war on Genesis initially, and a serious affront to God the Creator, ultimately.

The pervasive cultural pandering to the collective pride of ideological feminism should not be allowed to undermine the fundamental tenants of our religion, no matter how politically correct and popular it has become. The real attack is on male/female distinctions, which is particularly ironic since

feminism has as an ultimate goal to destroy patriarchy and put in its place goddess worship. Even the UN is helping to bring this about through the Earth Charter, and Agenda 21.

I like this testimony by a woman that I barely know "We have to remember that our world and just about everything we hear as women is so coated with the feminist movement that we are blinded by what God intended for us to be. It is viewed as shameful and beneath us to be keepers of the home anymore. I didn't realize just how much I was corrupted by feminism until I went to "True Woman" 2 years ago.... I had always viewed myself as one of the most conservative women, and my eyes were opened SO widely in those 2 days. I know that years ago I would have looked at something like this and thought, Uggghhh what are they trying to do. But now I see it for what it is, staying home to learn how to best be a wife and mother. This has all the blessing of heaven.." (Tamara).

Today there is a huge "spiritual" awakening happening in the world. Some of it's guiding tenets are Transformative (Social) justice, environmentalism, feminism etc. These people become Cultural creators - so they describe themselves. It is interesting to note that this is a post-secular movement. They claim to number 50 million in America. Big enough to jump start a global movement. They have a goal take over US culture by year 2020. This is one-ism on steroids.

In closing, Motherhood is holy. It is a noble calling. Feminism is at war with motherhood. When men are the leaders of their homes in the way that God intends, the women are blessed by that, and feel protected. A relationship of harmony results, and our lives become a sacrament of the Church. Feminism and androgyny are a sacrament of one-ism.

be blessed,

G

[cricket]

I'm really glad some women may become mothers.

But I'm also really glad that...

women may legally vote.

women may legally drive.

girls may legally play sports in high school.

women may legally work for wages outside the home.

women may serve on a jury.

girls may be loved and not thrown out because only boys are revered as worthwhile offspring.

women may retain their land and real-estate properties once married.

women have rights over their own reproductive systems.

women may enter into contracts and engage in business matters.

girls may legally receive a formal education.

women may choose whom they wish to marry.

women may execute wills.

women may become teachers and doctors.

women must no longer suffer silently under an abusive husband (especially marital rape).

women may have control over their own earnings.

women may be present at political meetings.

[Tom Wetmore]

... Yes, thanks to that reviled Feminist Movement.

If one wants a view of the absence of the benefit of Feminism just look at an Islamic dominated country.

[debbym]

Quote:

In closing, Motherhood is holy. It is a noble calling. Feminism is at war with motherhood.

motherhood is not holy.

It is a call to be holy.

not all mothers respond to that call, or have learned about the sacredness of their task, so they are just doing motherhood without being holy. There is an inheritance of human nature from generation to generation, and it is not getting any holier.

Out their in the world motherhood is biological, social, and potentially higher to the level of spiritual. Mothers bring to it whatever learning, family culture, religious faith they have or do not have. The abuse of Authority is at war with motherhood. Women who have been abused, and it is an extremely high percentage, have new challenges in nurturing their children. It causes me to weep. I love babies.

Jezebel was a mother too, and she was an unholy mother. Even natural affection and natural love and bonding is used to serve evil without the principles of God working to serve God's will. Thank-God the work of the Holy Spirit is able to redefine in a women her high calling and empower her to respond to that call.

The call to mothers is to be Holy, we have a Holy God, but motherhood in itself is not holy. we need to be born again, and to have have to have a relationship to God to bring any holiness into the experience of being a mother.

just as manhood has no sacredness apart from God, sorry none.

It is something we want tend to be in denial of. But the human condition is at best Laodicean.

the social movement of the 60's was no more righteous then the social standards of the 50's and 40's and 30's and 20's. the ball of violence against women and children, and disregarding God's disenfranchised, the coldness of the human heart, has just kept rolling, and and is not corrected by social change. The sixties did not stop it, they just starting making the suffering something that was allowed to be known, and offering protection. Imperfect people tried to use human methods to achieve help for problems only the power of the Holy Spirit can do, but i do not blame them for trying.

like the underground railroad was put in place to protect slaves and set them free from abuse. I don't blame the brave souls who did this.

unfortunately the rate at which violence against women and children occurs in the SDA Church is the same as it is out in the general population of society. The efforts of people in bringing social change does not bring about a new birth and Christlike behaviors. It can bring about public punishment for bad behavior.

Abuses of authority have spawned a huge social movement to protect people. Starting with children, handicapped, and then mentally ill, women, and the elderly. If you believe this was not needed, then i suggest you look into the world of abuse and personal trauma. Check out the abuse that happens in your SDA Church.

Oh i forgot for a moment that it is something people do not talk about in polite company. We are to live as though these things do not exist. Excuse me for stepping out of line," she said.

gentle and in peace,

nods

deb

[Tom Wetmore]

Ger, the entirety of what you posted is really messed up. It paints a picture so utterly devoid of the full and complete truth of the matter that it is just shameful.

That POV is very much like the view of America held by our enemies. Fragments of reality of the worst possible extreme fringe elements being claimed to reflect the whole.

It strongly suggests you did not read or understand the OP.

[Johann]

Let's consider the extreme anti-masculine strand of feminism that has been pervasive in Scandinavia for decades. The male protection instinct doesn’t take action because Scandinavian women have worked tirelessly to eradicate it, together with everything else that smacks of traditional masculinity. Because of this, feminism has greatly weakened Scandinavia, and perhaps Western civilization as whole.

----

To the liberal mind, Muslim immigrants are “fellow victims” of this bias.

---

G

states our "expert"

Let me point out that Scandinavia consists of several different countries which are widely different although they have several cultural similarities. Denmark looks at Sweden as very feministic in comparison with themselves.

It was in Denmark where a group of women boarded a bus refusing to pay more than 80% of the regular fare because women then got paid only 80% of the the salary of men for the same kind of work. I believe the Seventh-day Adventist Church including in the Unites States now is paying women the same for the same kind of work.

It is true that Muslim immigrants ignited feminism when people saw how Muslim men were treating their women.