I'm having trouble with this SOP comment

[phkrause]

great post Kevin

[debbym]

Quote:

It just goes to show how we just can't trust the words in compilations.

_________________________

so very true, unfortunately e white books and letters are still misused after we have had many events to help us understand not do this. She warned about it while she was alive and still people misused her words.

[Woody]

Quote:

It just goes to show how we just can't trust the words in compilations.

_________________________

so very true, unfortunately e white books and letters are still misused after we have had many events to help us understand not do this. She warned about it while she was alive and still people misused her words.

This is truly a shame. What a good writer to have her work so abused.

[Restin]

No Offense taken, Woody, I find that an important point to consider!

[John317]

Quote: "It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost" 5T p.214

So, which is it: Salvation by obedience to Sister White, or salvation by faith in Jesus Christ?

Look at the context. It isn't talking about being justified by God. It is talking about preparing ourselves for receiving the Latter Rain.

Justification is by God's grace through faith in Christ alone. It happens in a moment and does not depend on any works of the law. On the other hand, sanctification, i.e., character-building, is the work of a lifetime and does require overcoming sin through the power of the Holy Spirit.

[BobRyan]

Also her statement is looking at the latter rain. Let's take a look at what lead to Penticost. You have a group of disciples, still over 10 years before they were willing to accept Gentiles, but who had been arguing over who would be in what important government positions in the kingdom of Christ all wanting to be Jesus' prime minister and squabbling over it, faced with the death of Jesus, resurection and trying to make sense of everything. There were different shades of faith which was later to be reflected among the different writers of the New Testament, showing that while they were of one accord they were not all uniform in belief and application of their understanding of the life of Christ. But instead of simply arguing, they studied, prayed, and agreeded to dissagree.

[BobRyan]

I must say it again - this does not look like "lowered expectations and agree to disagree" - it looks like radical transformation, repentance and reformation.

Quote:

As the disciples waited for the fulfillment of the promise, they humbled their hearts in true repentance and confessed their unbelief. As they called to remembrance the words that Christ had spoken to them before His death they understood more fully their meaning. Truths which had passed from their memory were again brought to their minds, and these they repeated to one another. They reproached themselves for their misapprehension of the Saviour. Like a procession, scene after scene of His wonderful life passed before them. As they meditated upon His pure, holy life they felt that no toil would be too hard, no sacrifice too great, if only they could bear witness in their lives to the loveliness of Christ’s character. Oh, if they could but have the past three years to live over, they thought, how differently they would act! If they could only see the Master again, how earnestly they would strive to show Him how deeply they loved Him, and how sincerely they sorrowed for having ever grieved Him by a word or an act of unbelief! But they were comforted by the thought that they were forgiven. And they determined that, so far as possible, they would atone for their unbelief by bravely confessing Him before the world. {AA 36.1}

I think we can all see that.

in Christ,

Bob

[Restin]

Thanks all of you, for your answers. It hasn't been easy to find the balance between God's strictness and His kindness. I'll be reading these replies again to get a better idea of it all.

[Woody]

Thanks all of you, for your answers. It hasn't been easy to find the balance between God's strictness and His kindness. I'll be reading these replies again to get a better idea of it all.

[John317]

[JoeMo]

Restin,

May God bless you and give you wisdom and discernment as you search this mysteries of faith!

[Live4Him]

Thanks all of you, for your answers. It hasn't been easy to find the balance between God's strictness and His kindness. I'll be reading these replies again to get a better idea of it all.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Justification is by God's grace through faith in Christ alone. It happens in a moment and does not depend on any works of the law. On the other hand, sanctification, i.e., character-building, is the work of a lifetime and does require overcoming sin through the power of the Holy Spirit.

" And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”"John 8:32 NKJV

" And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”"John 8:32 NLT

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

The strictness or the Law is an absolute necessity for beings to live in perfect harmony.

"But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does."

James 1:25 NKJV

When one makes effort to avoid the perfect Law of liberty there is only slavery left in which to abide.

God blesses!

[debbym]

Quote:

Thanks all of you, for your answers. It hasn't been easy to find the balance between God's strictness and His kindness. I'll be reading these replies again to get a better idea of it all.

when i think of Christs' righteousness as being a life with all the boundaries in place, i see it as something that worked. having habits of having good boundaries in place between myself and others, and within myself, and in my dealing with money and property, my work, my education, all my relationships, this is life more abundant.

then it is not about rigidity, it is about doing things so they work and work well and have God's blessings.

if you look at the ten commandments it is about having boundaries around all your relationships, and regarding everyone else's boundaries.

when i see things as they are in motion, it helps me see it is about things working correctly, not about control.

life style changes to a better lifestyle are changes that need to be made then integrated as you can maintain them. making new habits. if you get controlling and rigid about it, it is not so healthy.

deb

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Restin

Quote: "It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost" 5T p.214

So, which is it: Salvation by obedience to Sister White, or salvation by faith in Jesus Christ?

Look at the context. It isn't talking about being justified by God. It is talking about preparing ourselves for receiving the Latter Rain.

Justification is by God's grace through faith in Christ alone. It happens in a moment and does not depend on any works of the law. On the other hand, sanctification, i.e., character-building, is the work of a lifetime and does require overcoming sin through the power of the Holy Spirit.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: Restin

Quote: "It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost" 5T p.214

So, which is it: Salvation by obedience to Sister White, or salvation by faith in Jesus Christ?

Look at the context. It isn't talking about being justified by God. It is talking about preparing ourselves for receiving the Latter Rain.

Justification is by God's grace through faith in Christ alone. It happens in a moment and does not depend on any works of the law. On the other hand, sanctification, i.e., character-building, is the work of a lifetime and does require overcoming sin through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Like!

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

Also her statement is looking at the latter rain. Let's take a look at what lead to Penticost. You have a group of disciples, still over 10 years before they were willing to accept Gentiles, but who had been arguing over who would be in what important government positions in the kingdom of Christ all wanting to be Jesus' prime minister and squabbling over it, faced with the death of Jesus, resurection and trying to make sense of everything. There were different shades of faith which was later to be reflected among the different writers of the New Testament, showing that while they were of one accord they were not all uniform in belief and application of their understanding of the life of Christ. But instead of simply arguing, they studied, prayed, and agreeded to dissagree.

A great example of not quoting Ellen White on anything at all -- and yet as if we are supposed to sign ellen white's name to it.

Were they simply "agreeing to disagree" according to the Word of God in Acts 1? -- Clearly not.

They were in agreement.

Quote:

In obedience to Christ’s command, they waited in Jerusalem for the promise of the Father—the outpouring of the Spirit. They did not wait in idleness. The record says that they were “continually in the temple, praising and blessing God.” Luke 24:53. They also met together to present their requests to the Father in the name of Jesus. They knew that they had a Representative in heaven, an Advocate at the throne of God. In solemn awe they bowed in prayer, repeating the assurance, “Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in My name, He will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in My name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.” John 16:23, 24. Higher and still higher they extended the hand of faith, with the mighty argument, “It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.” Romans 8:34. {AA 35.2}

As the disciples waited for the fulfillment of the promise, they humbled their hearts in true repentance and confessed their unbelief. As they called to remembrance the words that Christ had spoken to them before His death they understood more fully their meaning. Truths which had passed from their memory were again brought to their minds, and these they repeated to one another. They reproached themselves for their misapprehension of the Saviour. Like a procession, scene after scene of His wonderful life passed before them. As they meditated upon His pure, holy life they felt that no toil would be too hard, no sacrifice too great, if only they could bear witness in their lives to the loveliness of Christ’s character. Oh, if they could but have the past three years to live over, they thought, how differently they would act! If they could only see the Master again, how earnestly they would strive to show Him how deeply they loved Him, and how sincerely they sorrowed for having ever grieved Him by a word or an act of unbelief! But they were comforted by the thought that they were forgiven. And they determined that, so far as possible, they would atone for their unbelief by bravely confessing Him before the world. {AA 36.1}

The disciples prayed with intense earnestness for a fitness to meet men and in their daily intercourse to speak words that would lead sinners to Christ. Putting away all differences, all desire for the supremacy, they came close together in Christian fellowship. They drew nearer and nearer to God, and as they did this they realized what a privilege had been theirs in being permitted to associate so closely with Christ. Sadness filled their hearts as they thought of how many times they had grieved Him by their slowness of comprehension, their failure to understand the lessons that, for their good, He was trying to teach them. {AA 37.1}

These days of preparation were days of deep heart searching. The disciples felt their spiritual need and cried to the Lord for the holy unction that was to fit them for the work of soul saving. They did not ask for a blessing for themselves merely. They were weighted with the burden of the salvation of souls. They realized that the gospel was to be carried to the world, and they claimed the power that Christ had promised. {AA 37.2}

During the patriarchal age the influence of the Holy Spirit had often been revealed in a marked manner, but never in its fullness. Now, in obedience to the word of the Saviour, the disciples offered their supplications for this gift, and in heaven Christ added His intercession. He claimed the gift of the Spirit, that He might pour it upon His people. {AA 37.3}

“And when the Day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.” {AA 37.4}

The Spirit came upon the waiting, praying disciples with a fullness that reached every heart. The Infinite One revealed Himself in power to His church. It was as if for ages this influence had been held in restraint, and now Heaven rejoiced in being able to pour out upon the church the riches of the Spirit’s grace. And under the influence of the Spirit, words of penitence and confession mingled with songs of praise for sins forgiven. Words of thanksgiving and of prophecy were heard. All heaven bent low to behold and to adore the wisdom of matchless, incomprehensible love. Lost in wonder, the apostles exclaimed, “Herein is love.” They grasped the imparted gift. And what followed? The sword of the Spirit, newly edged with power and bathed in the lightnings of heaven, cut its way through unbelief. Thousands were converted in a day. {AA 38.1}

I was afraid someone was going to misunderstand. Need to go to work soon, but in the Bible there is unity in diversity, and in human nature there is part of us that wants to be abolutely right and uniform. It is a part of the split between Hebrew thought and Greek thought (see Bowman's classic book on Hebrew thought complaired to Greek Thought).

In studying the Bible there are differences in say the writings of Southern kingdom's Aaronite Priesthood and the Northern kingdom's Prophetic movement. Part of the problem with the Pharicees is they were basically eastern, yet after Alexander the Great influenced by Greece and tried to make a uniformity of the Old Testament instead of the traditional Hebrew unity in diversity.

As for the New Testament. The disciples all had their shades of understanding. Probably one of the most blatent is contrasting Mark and Luke. In Mark no one knows who Jesus is until you come to the end and a Roman centuriam, a man so pagan that he expresses the truth in words that would be appaling to a good monothiestic Jew, was the only one who finally realized who Jesus was. However, in Luke, everyone knows who Jesus was before he was even born and when you get to this Roman Centerumium, instead of him realizing that Jesus was divine, he only says "He must have been a good man."

This is a weaker argument, but on one of Paul's missionary journey the Holy Spirit prevented him from going a certain direction. The Bible does not tell why. But ONE scholarly POSSIBILITY is that there is evidence that John might have been on a missionary trip to that area at that time, and that Paul and John may have had enought differences to be confusing to a new believer, and that Paul did not want to confuse them at a place where a valid apostle was doing a good work.

A bit stronger on the same track is how Paul talked about the divisions in the church in Corinth. His solution was for the parties to realize that there is a deeper unity beyond their external differences and to go to that unity. Now if we were Paul we would not want to encourage a unity in diversity, we would simply throw out the parties of Appolos, Peter, and Jesus and keep who we see as orthodox.

And let us not forget the Adventist Pioneers. They were kicked out of different churches and had different beliefs. Some did not believe in the trinity, while others did. They were hurt that their churches kicked them out for their hope in the Advent and they joined as a group where they would be free to worship together and not be kicked out because they did not agree on every jott and tittle. Part of the crisis of 1888 was the wanting to make the church uniform. There is a difference between uniformity and unity in diversity.

[Ted Oplinger]

all the above

Blessings,

[BobRyan]

Probably one of the most blatent is contrasting Mark and Luke. In Mark no one knows who Jesus is until you come to the end and a Roman centuriam, a man so pagan that he expresses the truth in words that would be appaling to a good monothiestic Jew, was the only one who finally realized who Jesus was. However, in Luke, everyone knows who Jesus was before he was even born and when you get to this Roman Centerumium, instead of him realizing that Jesus was divine, he only says "He must have been a good man."

Almost every Bible commentator admits that Mark knew Peter.

And in Matt 16 Peter is boldly declaring that Christ is the Messiah - even though the non-Believing Jews reject that truth.

In Mark 1 Jesus starts off his ministry declaring that the prophetic timeline of Dan 9 'has been fulfilled" and that the "Kingdom of God is at hand" as described in Dan 7.

In fact that frequent references to "The Son of Man" are direct appeals to Daniel 7.

So while Christ is not trying to broadcast His role as Messiah until close to the time of the cross - it is hard to argue that the disciples were not aware of Matt 16 that happened right in front of all of them.

in Christ,

Bob

[Restin]

Another concept I'm beginning to understand from these posts is that a majority of people are complacent, thick-hided, Laodicean types. So, that's probably why the Fire & Brimstone, Lake-of-Fire preaching. I myself am rather sentitive and tend to push back under bullying. I need to understand that different groups of people need different approaches to stir them. Perhaps I need to realize that God will tend to me if I get too threatened, discouraged, overwhelmed. I shouldn't make a crusade out of protesting Fist-pounding sermons to congregations that probably need that method to wake them up. Kevin H seemed to bring that up in his post about the publishers of "Messages to Young People," and some other posts.

Does that sound right? I hope I'm not being presumptious as sometimes I need a bop on the head, too...just not all the time!

[Gail]

My experience has been that God has dealt with me gently, far more gently than I probably deserve.

[Kevin H]

I remember in Academy reading and hearing referred to in different sermons Johnathan Edward's sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" and the focus was on the false views of hell it presented. A couple of years ago I picked up a CD of someone reading the sermon, and re-visiting it, especially from a clearer view of the nature of Hell, it is actually a pretty good sermon dealing with the spiritual situation that Edwards was seeing. There are times that we need to be waken up. But some people want all their sermons to be these wake up ones.

[LifeHiscost]

It seems to me if we cannot go to the Word and find the principle spoken, as given by EGW, we ought to let it rest until we can.

God blesses!

[Live4Him]

Great thoughts about different people needing different styles. Personally I would prefer to concentrate on the positive loving aspects of the gospel but I do realize that the strong stuff definitely has it's place. EW states that the Law and the Gospel should be presented with equal force. I found a little verse in Jude also that shows different people need different methods to get their attention.

Quote:

Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

God bless and Happy Sabbath!