What are the implications?

[lazarus]

1000 points for anyone who can identify who said this....

I saw that the Apocrypha was the hidden book, and that the wise of these last days should understand it.

20,000 points for anyone who can set out the implications, if any.

[Woody]

Sounds like Ellen White prose Laz. And as far as the application - I have no doubt that it is good to study what others believe. For instance - it would be good for those in the last days - to study the Koran.

[M. T. Cross]

EGW - Manuscript 4, 1850

The implications are that Christians should be looking outside of the bible for hidden truths.

I will take my 21,000 points in small bills thank you Laz.

[Woody]

Sorry EC - I answered the question first. No points for you. Don't count your chickens before they are hatched.

[M. T. Cross]

Ah but you just said "sounds like"

I provided a author, paper and page. We can split that first 1000 though.

[Gail]

[phkrause]

Why don't we add what's missing to the taken out of context statement?

"I then saw the Word of God, pure and unadulterated, and that we must answer for the way we received the truth proclaimed from that Word. I saw that it had been a manner to break the flinty heart in pieces, and a fire to consume the dross and tin, that the heart might be pure and holy. I saw that the Apocrypha was the hidden book, and that the wise of these last days should understand it. I saw that the Bible was the standard Book, that will judge us at the last day. I saw that heaven would be cheap enough, and that nothing was too dear to sacrifice for Jesus, and that we must give all to enter the kingdom. I heard an angel say, "think ye God will place His seal where there is an idol? No, no.'"16 Manuscript Release Page 34

On top of that, do you know what "Apocrypha" means?

I've read the Apocrypha. Other than the First and Second Books of the Maccabees, which I enjoyed as very interesting history, I thought were so so.

[LifeHiscost]

1000 points for anyone who can identify who said this....

I saw that the Apocrypha was the hidden book, and that the wise of these last days should understand it.

20,000 points for anyone who can set out the implications, if any.

Manuscript releases, Volume 16 P 34 paragraph 3

" saw that God’s people must press together and not be too willing to see faults in each other, for where there is union there is strength. I saw that the people of God were generally too dull, too dormant and unbelieving. The angel said, “Watch, watch, watch.” I saw a crown of glory laid up for those who make a covenant with God by sacrifice. I saw that a sacrifice would not increase but decrease and consume. I was then pointed to him who had defied the armies of Israel; that truth would overcome error; and that light would shine out of darkness.

I was then pointed to the beauty and loveliness of Jesus. Upon His head were crowns, a crown within a crown. His robe was whiter than the whitest white. No language can describe His glory and His exalted loveliness. All, all who keep the commandments of God, will enter in through the gates into the city and have right to the tree of life and ever be in the presence of that lovely Jesus, whose countenance shines brighter than the sun at noonday.

I then saw the Word of God, pure and unadulterated, and that we must answer for the way we received the truth proclaimed from that Word. I saw that it had been a hammer to break the flinty heart in pieces, and a fire to consume the dross and tin, that the heart might be pure and holy. I saw that the Apocrypha [see Mr. No. 1148, “Ellen G. White and the apocrypha.”] was the hidden book, and that the wise of these last days should understand it. I saw that the Bible was the standard Book, that will judge us at the last day. I saw that heaven would be cheap enough, and that nothing was too dear to sacrifice for Jesus, and that we must give all to enter the kingdom. I heard an angel say, “Think ye God will place His seal where there is an idol? No, no.”"

I would say the implications are manifold but that among the most important is the implicit nature of each requirement asked of us by the Lord of glory, revealing the absolute necessity of depending upon the righteousness of Jesus, both imputed and imparted, as opposed to trusting in any righteousness of our own for our confidence in sharing the home He is preparing for us in the Kingdom of heaven.

God cares!

[phkrause]

It will be interesting to see what implications Lazarus had in mind.

[LifeHiscost]

[Kevin H]

This was an early Ellen White quote, we studied this in AUC. It was pointed out that most Christians did not see much difference between the Old Testament and the Approcrapha. The message that Mrs. White got was that we need to take the Bible as a whole. This is the inspired principle. The quote was how she, from her understanding at the time applied the principle. As she grew she came to a deeper understanding as to what the whole Bible actually consisted of.

[lazarus]

Ah but you just said "sounds like"

I provided a author, paper and page. We can split that first 1000 though.

I award 500 to EC

I award 500 to Woody (only cos EC said so)

I award the full 20000.

This quote by EGW is quite interesting. There is some question as to the veracity of the quote but it does reflect that her perceptions of truth evolved in conjunction with , not independent of, the rest of the Christian world. Most SDA's would I am sure be shocked to know that she said this and that many early SDA's like other Christians had KJV bibles that contained the Apocrypha.

Most SDA's would to embrace the two main points in the quote. Is this a case where EGW was not inspired. Was this just her opinion? Obviously, her subsequent writings indicate that she did not hold to her position in the quote.

A hiddden book?

That the wise of these last days should understand it!!!!

[Restin]

Same thought, Laz... is each point worth a dollar before I venture into my research project? Just kidding.

I agree we should be well informed, but in a careful way. Some people try to argue against the Big Bang, which actually doesn't teach that everything came from nothing, but that "everything" was compressed then "exploded", evolving from there. I feel I need to know what evolution teaches to argue against it, but also knowing I risk getting dragged in if my faith isn't secure.

Ditto for "spiritual Formation" which on the surface is attractive to my New Age roots, before I was converted.

[phkrause]

Same thought, Laz... is each point worth a dollar before I venture into my research project? Just kidding.

I agree we should be well informed, but in a careful way. Some people try to argue against the Big Bang, which actually doesn't teach that everything came from nothing, but that "everything" was compressed then "exploded", evolving from there. I feel I need to know what evolution teaches to argue against it, but also knowing I risk getting dragged in if my faith isn't secure.

Ditto for "spiritual Formation" which on the surface is attractive to my New Age roots, before I was converted.

Excellent post Restin. I believe Paul mentions somewhere in one of his books about being careful what we do, because members that are new or weak in the faith department, might be influenced to bad habits, etc.

[ClubV12]

Since she never quoted from it during the course of her work and rarely, if ever, even mentioned it again, I won't make to much of it one way or the other.

But I do find it interesting their seems to be two conflicting reports about the large, 18.5 pounds, bible that she held for forty minutes or so. With an outstretched hand.

ONE report says the bible contained the apocrypha, which was faily common of bibles in those days (not so today).

The second account says the bible did not contain the apocrypha! Which is consistent with what is "reported" by some of those present. I am reminded of how freguently people have been convicted of a crime on "eye witness testimony", only to have been found not guilty later. Sometimes YEARS later!!!

We do have several examples of the early work of Ellen White being erroneously reported. But, I will assume the reports are indeed accurate, I guess, mostly accurate, kind of sort of accurate? I don't know...

If said reports ARE accurate, which is it: DID the bible have the extra books, or not?

The bible still exists, but I have no idea if today it does or doesn't contain the extra books? If it does not, COULD they have been removed? I would think they would have been bound into the book, making removal impossible without rebinding or leaving some obvious clues of removal. If it does, were they added at some point after the vision?

Maybe it was separate binding and could easily be removed or replaced when needed? If so, this would explain the apparent conflict.

[Gregory Matthews]

The following is taken from a CD index of EGWs writings:

Quote:

MR No. 1148 - Ellen G. White and the Apocrypha

[A STATEMENT PREPARED BY ARTHUR L. WHITE IN 1969 AND NOW REQUESTED FOR CLASSROOM USE BY RON JOLLIFF, RELIGION TEACHER AT SOUTHWESTERN ADVENTIST COLLEGE. THE PARAGRAPH FROM MANUSCRIPT 4, 1850, HAS NOT HERETOFORE BEEN RELEASED.--R. W. OLSON.] {15MR 65.1}

WHILE ELLEN G. WHITE IS NOT KNOWN TO HAVE QUOTED FROM THE APOCRYPHA THERE IS SOME DOCUMENTATION OF THE EARLY YEARS WHICH MAY BE OF INTEREST IN CONNECTION WITH A STUDY OF HER RELATIONSHIP TO IT. JAMES WHITE, IN HIS PAMPHLET. A WORD TO THE LITTLE FLOCK, IN HIS FIRST ARTICLE ENTITLED "THE SEVEN LAST PLAGUES" INCLUDES TWO REFERENCES TO THE APOCRYPHA. {15MR 65.2}

PAGE 2: "THE SEED IS ROTTED UNDER THEIR CLODS, THE GARNERS ARE

LAID DESOLATE, THE BARNS ARE BROKEN DOWN, FOR THE CORN IS

WITHERED."--SEE JOEL 1:15-18; JEREMIAH 30:23, 24; DANIEL 12:1; HABAKKUK 3:12, 13; ZEPHANIAH 1:17, 18; 2:10-13. {15MR 65.3}

PAGE 3: "I WILL BRING THEM (THE SAINTS) WITH A MIGHTY HAND AND A

STRETCHED-OUT ARM, AND SMITE EGYPT WITH PLAGUES AS BEFORE," ETC.

--2 ESDRAS 15:11. {15MR 65.4}

AS HE FURNISHED SCRIPTURE REFERENCES TO TWO ELLEN G. WHITE VISIONS, INCORPORATED IN A WORD TO THE LITTLE FLOCK, HE ALSO INCORPORATED SOME REFERENCES TO THE APOCRYPHA. HIS EXPLANATION WHICH PRECEDES THE PUBLICATION OF THE FIRST VISION STATES: {15MR 65.5}

"THE FOLLOWING VISION WAS PUBLISHED IN THE DAY STAR,

MORE THAN A YEAR AGO. BY THE REQUEST OF FRIENDS, IT IS RE-PUBLISHED

IN THIS LITTLE WORK, WITH SCRIPTURE REFERENCES, FOR THE BENEFIT

OF THE LITTLE FLOCK."--A WORD TO THE

LITTLE FLOCK, P. 13 {15MR 65.6}

AT THE BOTTOM OF PAGES 15 AND 17 THERE ARE REFERENCES KEYED TO THE E. G. WHITE TEXT, ONE REFERENCE TO 2 ESDRAS 2; 43, (P. 15) AND THE OTHER TO 2 ESDRAS 2:19, (P. 17).

-66- {15MR 65.7}

IT IS CLEAR THAT JAMES WHITE SAW SOME SIMILARITIES BETWEEN WHAT ELLEN WHITE WROTE AND SOME THINGS HE HAD READ IN ESDRAS, AND SO USED THESE REFERENCES AS HE DID SCRIPTURE REFERENCES WHICH HE SAYS HE SUPPLIED. {15MR 66.1}

THE HIDDEN BOOK

IN A REPORT SIGNED BY THREE EARLY BELIEVERS REFERENCE IS MADE TO THE HIDDEN BOOK AS ELLEN WHITE UTTERED CERTAIN WORDS IN VISION. HERE IS THE ACCOUNT: {15MR 66.2}

"AT ANOTHER TIME AT A MEETING HELD AT BROTHER CURTIS'

IN TOPSHAM, MAINE, SHE WAS TAKEN OFF IN VISION, AND AROSE TO

HER FEET, TOOK THE LARGE FAMILY BIBLE FROM THE TABLE, AND HELD

IT ON HER HAND SOME TIME AT AN ANGLE OF FORTY-FIVE DEGREES, AND

SAID THE HIDDEN BOOK WAS NOT THERE. WHEN SOME ONE ASKED IF THE

APOCRYPHA WAS NOT IN THE BIBLE, BROTHER CURTIS REMARKED IT WAS

NOT. SHE TALKED SOMETIME ABOUT THE HIDDEN BOOK. NO ONE KNEW

BUT BRO. CURTIS FAMILY THAT THE APOCRAPHA [APOCRYPHA] WAS NOT THERE.

MRS. S. HOWLAND

REBECCA HOWLAND WINSLOW

FRANCES HOWLAND LUNT" {15MR 66.3}

IN THE REPORT OF A VISION GIVEN TO ELLEN WHITE AT OSWEGO, NEW YORK ON JANUARY 11, 1850, AND CARRYING A COPYING DATE OF JANUARY 28, 1850, ELLEN WHITE MAKES A REFERENCE TO THE HIDDEN BOOK. HER DESCRIPTION OF WHAT WAS SHOWN TO HER IN THE VISION CONTAINS MANY ITEMS AND AS ON FILE COMPRISES FOUR AND A QUARTER TYPE-WRITTEN PAGES. NEAR THE CLOSE OF HER STATEMENT WE FIND THESE WORDS: {15MR 66.4}

"All, all who keep the commandments of God, will enter in

through the gates into the city and have right to the tree of

life and ever be in the presence of that lovely Jesus whose

countenance shines brighter than the sun at noon day. I then

saw the word of God pure and unadulterated, and that we must

answer for the way we received the truth proclaimed from that

word. I saw that it had been a hammer to break the flinty

heart in pieces, and a fire to consume the dross and tin, that

the heart might be pure and holy. I saw that the Apocrypha was

the hidden book, and that the wise of these last days should

understand it. I saw that the Bible was the standard book, that

will judge us at the last day. I saw that heaven would be cheap

enough, and that nothing was too dear to sacrifice for Jesus,

and that we must give all to enter the kingdom."--Manuscript 4,

1850, (A copy of E. G. White's Vision which she had at Oswego, N.Y.)

-67-

ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS REFERENCE IS MADE TO THE APOCRYPHA IN ARTICLES IN THE REVIEW AND HERALD. THESE ARE OF INTEREST, AND COPY OF THE MATERIALS IS ATTACHED. {15MR 66.5}

THE FULL MEANING AND SIGNIFICANCE OF THE E. G. WHITE STATEMENT OF 1850 IS NOT CLEARLY SEEN. IT SHOULD BE OBSERVED THAT ELLEN WHITE MAKES NO REFERENCE TO THE APOCRYPHA AT ANY TIME IN HER WRITINGS IN THE SUBSEQUENT 65 YEARS. IF WHAT WE HAVE IS A CORRECT COPY OF WHAT SHE WROTE, AND AT TIMES THERE IS SOME UNCERTAINTY AS TO THE ACCURACY OF SOME OF THE STATEMENTS BEARING THESE EARLY DATES, AT NO TIME SUBSEQUENT TO THAT, DID SHE HAVE OCCASION TO CALL THE ATTENTION OF THE CHURCH TO THE APOCRYPHA TO URGE ITS READING OR TO EXPLAIN ITS SIGNIFICANCE. THIS BEING THE CASE, OUR COUNSEL WOULD BE TO GIVE THE MATTER A MINIMUM OF ATTENTION. SURELY THE SILENCES IN HER PUBLISHED WRITINGS ON THIS SUBJECT CARRY SIGNIFICANCE.

ARTHUR L. WHITE

[Gail]

I think I would like to read the Apocrypha just for curiosity's sake. :)

[OzarkWoman]

I think I would like to read the Apocrypha just for curiosity's sake.

I have read much of it. It is really different books, just like the Bible. There is the Book of Thomas, The Book of Mary and etc.

[phkrause]

I have read them, you can actually see or tell why they are not part of the Bible. The Maccabees 1&2 are interesting. But for me, if God wanted them in the Bible, they would've been in there. No doubt in my mind about that.

[Gregory Matthews]

There are many written works that have claimed to be inspired and/or written by people aquainted with Christ. These have generally been listed as belonging to the Apocrypha, the Pseudepigraphia, Gnostic writings and other writings.

The distinction between the groups is not always clear. E.g. The Gospel of Thomas is usually included in the Pseudepigrapha, but is sometimes included in the Apocrypha.

In my personal classification I consider the Apocrypha to be written during in the period between the Old and the New Testament and the Pseudepigrapha following Christ.

The list below is the listing of the books most commonly included in the Apocrypha. However, some lists include 3rd & 4th Maccabees.

Quote:

Wisdom of Solomon 30 B.C. Didactic

Ecclesiasticus 32 B.C. Didactic

Tobit c. 200 B.C. Religious Novel

I Esdras c. 150 B.C. Historic & Legendary

I Maccabees c. 110 B.C. Historic

II Maccabees c. 100 B.C. Historic & Legendary

Judith c. 150 A.D. Romantic Novel

Baruch c. 100 A.D. Prophetic

Letter of Jeremiah c. 200 B.C. Prophetic

II Esdras c. 100 A.D. Prophetic

Additions to Esther c. 130 B.C. Legendary

Prayer of Azariah* c. 100. B.C. Legendary

Suzanna (Daniel 13) c. 100 B.C. Legendary

Bel & the Dragon (Daniel 14) c. 100 B.C. Legendary

Prayer of Manasseh c. 150 B.C. Legendary

1st Maccabees is some of the best history that we have for that period of time. 2nd Maccabees is almost as good, but not quite. 3rd and 4th Maccabees are not considered to be good history.

Judith is a wonderful devotional book, but not inspired.

Suzanna is a good story of righteousness triumphing over evil

due to God using Daniel to confound evil men.

Bel and the Dragon again features Daniel in the role of God's defender. Pure poppycock.

Tobit clearly conflicts with Scripture.

The gnostic writings are interesting in telling us about Jewish religious life.

Some of the most interesting writings tell us about Christ and his life as an early child. In one story, as I recall in the Gospel of Thomas, Christ is playing in the mud with other children. They are all making mud figures of birds and other life. The children laugh at the mud birds that Christ had made. So, in fit of anger, Christ turns the mud figure birds into life and they fly away.

In other stories of Christ as a child, Christ uses his godly powers to harm children who made fun of him.

Stories from the Garden of Eden, s in and the role that eVe played in all of this are of some interest.

[Naomi]

I must agree with Pkrause. And, yes, I have also read them ... interesting but nothing of which I would consider critical to my spiritual journey.

[ClubV12]

I think I'll pass on reading any of it. Maybe I'll find time after I finish reading AND STUDYING the Spirit of Prophecy writings. I find enough error just hanging around here...

[Gregory Matthews]

As I said: 1st Macc. is the best history that we have for that period of time.

So, you are not interested in Jewish history during the period of time?

O.K.

[whatisthis]

It looks like the Apocrypha, and the Pseudepigraphia are different books, right? The Gospel of Thomas is usually included in the Pseudepigrapha and that book is where the magical clay birds and the angry Christ-child are, right?

Why should we have to even discuss the Pseudepigrapha, with all it's magic nonsense, if we are discussing what was said about the Apocrypha? Oxford University Press and Cambridge University Press united in 1970 resolved to make a completely new translation, rather than a revision, yet to use contemporary language. To me, the result is beautiful! And it does contain an Apocrypha.

Apocrypha:

I Esdras

II Esdras

Tobit

Judith

The rest of the book of Esther

Wisdom of Solomon

Ecclesiasticus

Baruch

Letter of Jeremiah

The Song of the Three

Suzanna (Daniel 13)

Bel & the Dragon (Daniel 14)

Prayer of Manasseh

I Maccabees

II Maccabees

Here's that passage James said Ellen was quoting from, out of The New English Bible, with the Apocrypha:

"I will strike the Egyptians with plagues, as I did before, and destroy their whole land. How Egypt will mourn, shaken to its very foundations, when it is scourged and chastised by the Lord! How the tillers of the soil will mourn, when the seed fails to grow, and when their trees are devastated by blight and hail and terrible storm!" That's from 2 Esdras 15.

Just a little down from there in the same chapter Ezra adds, "Nation will draw sword against nation and go to war. Stable government will be at an end; one faction will prevail over another, caring nothing in their day of power for king or leading man of rank. A man may want to visit a city but he will not be able to do so; for ambition and rivalry will have reduced cities to chaos, destroyed houses, and filled men with panic."

I don't know. Sounds like times that could be drawing close, doesn't it?

[OzarkWoman]

I have read them, you can actually see or tell why they are not part of the Bible. The Maccabees 1&2 are interesting. But for me, if God wanted them in the Bible, they would've been in there. No doubt in my mind about that.

I understand where you are coming from but you do realize that it was human man who put the Bible together and not God. Those books are interesting because much is left out of the Bible about Jesus and the disciples. They are interesting though and I think well worth the read.