Obama DHS Purchases 2,700 Light-Armored Tanks,This Is Getting Creepy

[lazarus]

You are still looking at the founding fathers in a modern framework.No one is claiming they did it perfectly and took care of all ills.You are the one demanding they be condemned because they didn't.

Are you saying the founding fathers DID not oppress others?

[Ted Oplinger]

Bonnie - I am not replying directly to you, but using your post to further develop points to other readers...

I was going to reach for those examples about Great Britain's colonies, Bonnie, but you beat me to it. South Africa is another sterling example - where not only the English but those paragons of nobility - the Dutch - were instrumental setting up the apartheid apparatus. But the English are hardly alone.

France had Algiers. The Dutch had parts of South Africa, the Caribbean, and Polynesia - with all those noble, warlike and/or cannibalistic tribes found in those lands. Germany was too late to get in on the colonial sweepstakes, seeing how they were a confederation of independent states during that period...but the Third Reich made up for that. Russia? The Soviet Era saw what they would do worldwide...Italy, Greece? Ancient history on those empires saw they were no different in the beginning about dealing with the locals than the "colonialist" counterparts millenia later.

But before Europe is left "stained forever with colonial stink"...I'd like a look all these poor "noble" peoples left in their wake. Do they really have a nobility accorded to them simply because they suffered under a European country's power?

The short answer to the reader is...NO.

Every nation, every people group on earth - whether in history or contemporary today - will do these very same things if they had the power to get away with it. All this nobility posturing today really stinks to me. Likewise all the revisionist history to highlight the pet grievances of those seeking power over others.

Take Yugoslavia, for example. A wonderful group of noble peoples united under Tito, right? Well, all Tito did was force division off the radar. After he passed, Yugoslavia disintegrated back into the fractions it was built on. The hatreds between Serb, Croat, Slovene, Montenegran, and Muslim go back centuries. The Serbs and Croats illustrate well what today's nattering class is trying to instill in America today - a blood feud between peoples, each having their pet list of grievances, and each no nobler than the other should they have power over the other.

The Hutu/Tutsi affair in Rwanda during Clinton's presidency? Just as bad as anything the British did during their colonial stay there. Even worse, a self-inflicted nightmare of African upon African. Yet, it was Africans selling other Africans into slavery that made the whole slave trade industry possible, regardless of who was doing the trading.

The Rwandan affair shows those who "suffered" are no better at "getting it" than the colonial powers that are so run down all the time by the "politically correct". In fact, they would be even worse masters than the colonies were the tables actually reversed - Europe/America under African rule.

America gets slammed for its handling of its Japanese during WWII? Little gets said of what the Japanese did to the local nationals under its care during the same time...because they didn't win. Yet that doesn't lessen the fact they were worse than the Germans. The Japanese had a Nipponese superiority complex far worse than Germany's Aryan superiority policies could ever be.

China? Ever look deep into the history there? They are not a homogeneous people there. More people groups and languages than the American Indians had here in the Americas. And yes, there were many wars in that history as each people group struggled for mastery over others...or allied themselves with those who could. Just like the rest of the world.

No nation on earth is stain free. We are, after all, still living on a planet where the "prince of the air" still rules the nations here with an iron fist, and make sure every people group is led by those who would do evil against other peoples had the the power to get away with it.

Are African-Americans more noble than those who promoted their enslavement centuries ago? In looking at all the racial hate-filled rhetoric coming from the so-called "Civil Rights" movement today, I'd have to say their "civil rights" leaders are no better, as they turn MLK's "I had a dream" speech on its head in their every effort to paint everyone by the color of their skin, rather than by the content of their character.

Does that make all peoples everywhere evil? No.

Does it mean both the Founding Fathers and MLK are oppressors of different stripes? NO. It means that MLK and the Founding Fathers shared the same thoughts on liberty and rights - but not everyone following them share those same thoughts in practice. These following would rather be cruel masters over others, until the issue is brought to a crisis point and people must decide: Will we be masters over other peoples?

The beauty of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and MLK's speech say this nation as a collection of people is founded on a set of principles which ultimately answers that question with a 'NO'.

That is what sets the US apart from every other nation on earth. In the short time the US has been a nation, it got past the slavery issue the quickest (less than 100 years of existing). The closest any of the European powers got is England (~500 years from Magna Carta to 1833)...and many of the former European colonies among the Third world nations today still practice slavery "under the radar".

That the US got past these civil issues quicker than every other people group/nation is what rankles the new ruling class in our country, and that of every other country today. It rankles the so-called "politically correct" today: the concept that no person will be the master over another.

That concept also underlies the tensions between Management and Labor in the workplace. It is one thing to voluntarily serve...quite another to be forced into subservience do to circumstances beyond control.

The process to get there may at times be a bit messy, but it is better than anything the rest of the world has put together in over 4000 years. What our current government is doing now in what appears to many to be the start of government domination over all the people, is but the contemporaneous illustration of that point.

Yet, we know one day, this experiment in liberty will be thrown to the scrap heap of history. The elements making this possible are in place already in this nation. How much longer does this world have? Not much....

Blessings,

[bonnie]

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America gets slammed for its handling of its Japanese during WWII? Little gets said of what the Japanese did to the local nationals under its care during the same time...because they didn't win. Yet that doesn't lessen the fact they were worse than the Germans. The Japanese had a Nipponese superiority complex far worse than Germany's Aryan superiority policies could ever be.

Let's not forget the Canadians, they had their own Japanese internment camps,over 20,000 kept confined.

One nation on earth should be or so some seem to think

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That is what sets the US apart from every other nation on earth. In the short time the US has been a nation, it got past the slavery issue the quickest (less than 100 years of existing). The closest any of the European powers got is England (~500 years from Magna Carta to 1833)...and many of the former European colonies among the Third world nations today still practice slavery "under the radar".

That the US got past these civil issues quicker than every other people group/nation is what rankles the new ruling class in our country, and that of every other country today. It rankles the so-called "politically correct" today: the concept that no person will be the master over another.

Without the favorite "hammer' they cannot achieve their ends.

[bonnie]

Are you saying the founding fathers DID not oppress others?

I am saying the founding fathers were not perfect and did not react and behave in a 21st century mindset.

I am saying the US was light years ahead of it's time on issues that were firmly ingrained in European countries.

[OzarkWoman]

Why is nobody willing to just look at the era that they lived in, the founding fathers I mean? All of us would have been quite different also had we been alive back then. Laz just needs to get a grip and stop showing us all how he really feels about our country, which is not good I might add.

[bonnie]

Why is nobody willing to just look at the era that they lived in, the founding fathers I mean? All of us would have been quite different also had we been alive back then. Laz just needs to get a grip and stop showing us all how he really feels about our country, which is not good I might add.

Many people are willing to look at what you suggest.However that gets them labeled as racists and hatemongers.

[OzarkWoman]

Originally Posted By: OzarkWoman

Why is nobody willing to just look at the era that they lived in, the founding fathers I mean? All of us would have been quite different also had we been alive back then. Laz just needs to get a grip and stop showing us all how he really feels about our country, which is not good I might add.

Many people are willing to look at what you suggest.However that gets them labeled as racists and hatemongers.

True!!!

[lazarus]

That is what sets the US apart from every other nation on earth. In the short time the US has been a nation, it got past the slavery issue the quickest (less than 100 years of existing). The closest any of the European powers got is England (~500 years from Magna Carta to 1833)

That's a rather unique argument. I could therefore argue that the US got past the problem of how to kill bacteria quicker because it only took the US 200 years to begin to use penicillin as opposed to the UK which took hundreds. If one were ignorant of the work of Alexander Flemming that argument might fly. Lot of possibilities there for to support American exceptionalism I suppose.

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That the US got past these civil issues quicker than every other people group/nation is what rankles the new ruling class in our country, and that of every other country today.

Again a unique perspective. People are mad because the US dealt with its problem quicker than everyone else? Strange. That is a bizarre assertion. The US majority population was dragged kicking and screaming to the place where it had to accept the fact that African Americans has certain inalienable rights despite the fact that the founding fathers had written it down.

[lazarus]

Laz just needs to get a grip and stop showing us all how he really feels about our country, which is not good I might add.

It's natural to take my perspective personally. If you have been told all your life that your country is the land of the free and someone comes along and says that it has not always been so of course you going to think i'm mad at America or that I hate America. People were killed when folks said the earth was not flat.

[lazarus]

I am saying the founding fathers were not perfect and did not react and behave in a 21st century mindset.

I agree.

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I am saying the US was light years ahead of it's time on issues that were firmly ingrained in European countries.

I have to disagree there. The documents that helped shaped the nation were revolutionary but the men who wrote them still behaved and governed the way their own oppressors did.

[OzarkWoman]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

I am saying the founding fathers were not perfect and did not react and behave in a 21st century mindset.

I agree.

Quote:

I am saying the US was light years ahead of it's time on issues that were firmly ingrained in European countries.

I have to disagree there. The documents that helped shaped the nation were revolutionary but the men who wrote them still behaved and governed the way their own oppressors did.

pffffft

[bonnie]

I have to disagree there. The documents that helped shaped the nation were revolutionary but the men who wrote them still behaved and governed the way their own oppressors did.

You keep repeating this as if the fact that the founding fathers did not get it perfectly and take care of centuries of abuse with one swoop of the pen has been recently discovered by you.

Seems that it was a idea and aim of many of them. But it seems it is quite rewarding for you and serves some kind of purpose to continually point out the imperfections of people of that era. Any that has read history came to the conclusion long ago that they were not perfect and did not do everything perfectly.

Which Founding Fathers owned slaves?

Bassett, Blair, Blount, Butler, Carroll, Jenifer, Jefferson, Mason, Charles Pinckney, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, Rutledge, Spaight, and Washington and Madison. Ben Franklin owned a few but freed them and then started the Philadelphia Anti Slavery Society. Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, John Adams, Sam Adams and Thomas Paine did not own slaves and several of them were abolitionists, a few creating a school for black freedmen in New York. Washington also freed his slaves upon his death, however, over half of Washington's slaves were dowry slaves from his wife's first marriage and could not be freed by his will. They were not freed upon his death and Martha never freed them. This was quite devastating to the over 300 slaves on the Washington plantation because it tore apart many families, as freed blacks and slaves were not allowed to live together and as more and more of them were split amongst Martha's children and grandchildren.

[lazarus]

You keep repeating this as if the fact that the founding fathers did not get it perfectly and take care of centuries of abuse with one swoop of the pen has been recently discovered by you.

Nope. No one is perfect. They knew enough to establish their own freedom but were suck in the 18 century mindset so much that they could not give freedom to others. Even those in their own household. That's was exactly what the British did.

Just pointing out the truth rather than revisionist history.

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Which Founding Fathers owned slaves?

Not so far ahead right?

[bonnie]

Nope. No one is perfect. They knew enough to establish their own freedom but were suck in the 18 century mindset so much that they could not give freedom to others. Even those in their own household. That's was exactly what the British did.

Just pointing out the truth rather than revisionist history.

[bonnie]

I am a little curious.Now that you have informed us repeatedly

of the imperfect founding fathers and many times have compared to the wonderfully progressive Great Britan.

Could or would the royal monarchy marry a black spouse.

Had Diana or Kate Middleton been black in this "free country" where race seems to be a non-issue to you would they have been accepted into the royal family.If not,why not.

In this non-racist environment how many notable blacks are there in positions of power in government? I haven't looked it up but would expect it to be quite a number.If not,why not?

But please do tell us what we should now do about the founding fathers

[OzarkWoman]

Just pointing out the truth rather than revisionist history.

You have posted your truth, and not the truth. There is a difference. BTW, I am personally tired of YOUR revisionist history.

[lazarus]

I am a little curious.Now that you have informed us repeatedly

of the imperfect founding fathers and many times have compared to the wonderfully progressive Great Britan.

That is what you created in your mind not what I posted. You have a clear understanding of shortcomings of the British government in the 18th century. My point is simply that the founding fathers were not the great men of liberty that they have been made out to be.

[lazarus]

But please do tell us what we should now do about the founding fathers

Do with them what you will.

[lazarus]

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BTW, I am personally tired of YOUR revisionist history.

May you find rest.

[bonnie]

I am more interested in a clear understanding of British government past the 18th century.

I think racism is alive and well in Great Britan.Obviously a law or document there didn't transform all hearts and minds either.Whatever should be done about that?

You are entitled to your point.The founding fathers made possible liberty in their documents,many were already against slavery,and the rest followed.

I don't fault them for their shortcomings,culture in the era they lived. You of course keep hammering on their shortcomings and their failure of imperfect founding of this country.

[lazarus]

I don't fault them for their shortcomings,culture in the era they lived.

I know because you have been taught not to do that. I goes against everything you have been taught to believe.

I'm not sure why you are wanting to know about racism in the uk . There is still racism in the UK as in the rest of Europe. This is not about racism. It about liberty and the fact that the land of the free was not truly free until the last 50 years or so.

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

That is what sets the US apart from every other nation on earth. In the short time the US has been a nation, it got past the slavery issue the quickest (less than 100 years of existing). The closest any of the European powers got is England (~500 years from Magna Carta to 1833)

That's a rather unique argument. I could therefore argue that the US got past the problem of how to kill bacteria quicker because it only took the US 200 years to begin to use penicillin as opposed to the UK which took hundreds. If one were ignorant of the work of Alexander Flemming that argument might fly. Lot of possibilities there for to support American exceptionalism I suppose.

[bonnie]

I know because you have been taught not to do that. I goes against everything you have been taught to believe.

[lazarus]

Of course its a historical fact that the US took less time to abolish slavery. It had been a nation for less time! Providing the details of those historical events does not make the premise of your argument more sustainable or convincing. You give credit to the USA for not being in existence. That is a new approach.

The US did not just appear out of the ether of history. It's development and birth was not independent of other nations. The actions and culture of other nations were major catalysts but you talk as if at the declaration of independence the USA suddenly emerged unconnected, influenced by what came before. The US was a product of its time.

The founding fathers clearly benefited from the influences of the abolitionist movement born in Europe as early as the 16th century. No doubt you are aware of Ben Franklin's time in France. No wonder when he came back he freed his slaves.

BTW, I would love to see some evidence that people are upset because of the "swiftness" of American progress . Please cite some quotes, or books etc. You make that assertion but offer not evidence.

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no other nation has gone to war with itself over the concept that all peoples everywhere are created equal by God, that all peoples everywhere are endowed by their Creator with unalienable rights - and these principles prevailed in that war. No other nation on earth operated under such a concept up until the United States became a nation.

That's nice but the harsh reality is that the US has not operated under those principles until recently (the last 50 years). Those lofty concepts became practical realities when liberty was wrestled from the tightly clenched fist of the American majority. As MLK said that the oppressor never voluntarily gives freedom to the oppressed. MLK was clear that the US was the oppressor of blacks.

As he said.....Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check, a check that has come back marked 'insufficient funds.'

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But we are making progress - you at least acknowledge the Founding Fathers collectively did indeed include the African-American as men with certain unalienable rights...

Of course progress has been made. that is self-evident. We celebrate the progress every year but lets not deny the realities of America's birth.

I don't remember posting that the FF felt that African Americans had inalienable rights. They had to consider them to be "men" to believe that.

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The next step would be to acknowledge that the slave-holding members of the Founding Fathers took these principles to heart and released those slaves they could legally do so,

George Washington? Thomas Jefferson? James Madison? It's quite interesting that these most celebrated founding fathers didn't take it to heart. I don't think the Revolution was legal but somehow they got around to freeing themselves.

[lazarus]

You don't even make sense. What would be the point? You are not the first to read the history of the US and know and understand that there was a far different culture and mindset. You seem to think you are.

It's pointless trying to make the discussion about me. Deal with the arguments at hand.

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There shouldn't be. After signing a few papers the UK should have gone smoothly into all people treating all other people fairly.

Saying that "nobody is perfect" is not a good argument when dealing with matters of liberty.