Is the Bible the Word of God?? Yes or No?

[joeb]

Yes. That being said, would he/she still be a Christian if they did commit the unpardonable sin? What makes that sin unpardonable? For that matter, what is the unpardonable sin (maybe a subject for a new thread?) If you, as a Christian, are worried that you might have committed the unpardonable sin, did you really commit it?

The reason I asked the question was because of your interpretation of the text in Hebrews where Paul uses the phrase "done despite" to the Holy Spirit. In the Greek that phrase comes from a word meaning "to insult".

The unpardonable sin? The "grieving of the Spirit". In other words, not listening to the Holy Spirit to the point where a person repeatedly rejects the message or attributes the message the Holy Spirit is telling them to the devil. When that happens what more can be done? Nothing, because the person is opposed to listening to anything the Holy Spirit says, and as it is the Holy Spirit that convicts us of sin, the person has closed the door of repentance to himself. His choices, and it's not a single choice, it's a series, and often a long series, of choices that closes the door to repentance.

For examples of those who made this choice take a look at the scribes, Pharisees, Saducees, Judas, etc... during Christ's time on earth. The Desire of Ages brings this lesson out very clearly. I'd recommend chapters 64-80 as a very good resource on how this works.

Is a person who commits the unpardonable sin still a Christian? How can someone who refuses to listen to God be a Christian?

As to your last question, probably not, but then read the chapter on Judas in the DofA. He still thought of himself as a disciple of Christ after he left the upper room to set up the betrayal of Christ. He just thought he was forcing Christ to respect his business acumen.

The point to which we can decieve ourselves is pretty scary.

[BobRyan]

Another example, this time from the NT - Hebrews 6:4-7 says:

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It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

and hebrews 10:26-29 says"

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If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

I have heard many sermons on these two passages teach that these verses refer to the danger of being lost for any sins we commit after baptism. The purpose of these sermons is to scare people into abject submission to the Law as interpreted by the denomination or else.

Given the subject matter of the Book of Hebrews (Christ died once and for all for the forgiveness of every sin ever committed - past, present, and future), could it be that Paul is actually warning people about discounting the value of Christ's blood and sacrifice; and going back to "earning" salvation through the sacrificial system and Mosaic law that puts people in jeoprody? IMO, Paul's real message seems to be just the opposite of how we were "taught" to interpret these verses.

As if Paul only knew of one kind of sin.

1Cor 6 tells us that Paul was aware of a great many kinds of sins and he adds "do not be deceived - those who practice such things do not inherit eternal life.. and such WERE some of you".

Paul was very aware of the wide range of sins that draw Christians back into the world.

Heb 12 "you have not yet resisted unto blood in your striving against sin"

in Christ,

Bob

(Details matter)

[JoeMo]

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Not something to 'worry' about or to spend great amounts of time dissecting. Just keep listening to the voice of the Holy Spirit!!!

I quite agree CoAspen. When we focus on dark spiritual things, we give an opening to the enemy to attack. When we start obcessing about whether we have committed any dark sin (especially the unpardonable sin), we are agreeing with the accusations of satan that we indeed are NOT good enough. This caving in to the accusations of satan has caused more than one Christian to "give up", thus fulfilling his self-prophecy.

When we worry about the insurmountable depths of our sins, if we confess our sins to Jesus, He is faithful to forgive them and cleanse us from our unrighteousness - no matter what sin we are confessing.

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The reason I asked the question was because of your interpretation of the text in Hebrews where Paul uses the phrase "done despite" to the Holy Spirit. In the Greek that phrase comes from a word meaning "to insult".

joeb,

Are we not insulting the Holy Spirit when we become vain enough to think that the sacrifice and grace of Jesus are not enough to save us, that we have to kick in our 2 bits of righteousness the assure our salvation? (By the way, do you know that ALL of our righteousness is as filthy rags?) Aren't we making the blood of Christ to no avail when we say "that's nice Jesus; but here's a little something I did just to seal the deal a little tighter." Aren't we calling the works of the devil the works of the Spirit when we give up on the grace and soothing peace given by the Comforter and focus on satan's accusations? When we agree with satan on our evilness and unworthiness, we are tempted to give up on God altogether and abandon our life to our pet sins. I would rather focus on how good Jesus is rather than how evil I am. I can get so caught up in grace that I forget about my own sinfulness and meditate on His sinlessness - credited to me out of His love for me.

[skyblue888]

But the robe of Christ's righteousness with which the child of God is clothed does not have in it one thread of human devisings.

And we are told that this robe of righteousness accomplishes everything for it is God who works in us both to will and to do.

And even these good works that are wrought in and through us by the Holy Spirit do not play a part in the salvation of the soul or in merit and God accepts them only through the merits of Christ.

sky

[joeb]

joeb,

Are we not insulting the Holy Spirit when we become vain enough to think that the sacrifice and grace of Jesus are not enough to save us, that we have to kick in our 2 bits of righteousness the assure our salvation? (By the way, do you know that ALL of our righteousness is as filthy rags?) Aren't we making the blood of Christ to no avail when we say "that's nice Jesus; but here's a little something I did just to seal the deal a little tighter." Aren't we calling the works of the devil the works of the Spirit when we give up on the grace and soothing peace given by the Comforter and focus on satan's accusations? When we agree with satan on our evilness and unworthiness, we are tempted to give up on God altogether and abandon our life to our pet sins. I would rather focus on how good Jesus is rather than how evil I am. I can get so caught up in grace that I forget about my own sinfulness and meditate on His sinlessness - credited to me out of His love for me.

I don't quite understand where you're coming from. Are saying that I don't understand that all my righteousness is worth nothing? Are you saying that I think I can add to what Christ has done, and is doing, for me? Are you saying that God doesn't tell us that there is nothing good in us? Are you saying that we are not agreeing with God when we acknowledge our unworthiness and the sinfulness of our nature?

It's good to hear that you get caught up in looking at Jesus and His love for us, when you acknowledge God's righteousness that is imputed to us. Isn't sanctification by faith, the righteousness given to us by God that becomes a part of us just as valuable as His imputed righteousness? Isn't it just as possible to get caught up in looking to Jesus that we forget ourselves when He's working within us to change us? Can't we be as thankful for sanctification as we are for justification?

Isn't this a case of, Which is more important, getting married, or staying married?

Like I said, I don't really understand where you're coming from?

[JoeMo]

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Are saying that I don't understand that all my righteousness is worth nothing?

No; you may understand that; I'm just saying that your own righteousness is nothing. If you agree, (I know my righteousness is worth nothing) we have no issue.

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Are you saying that I think I can add to what Christ has done, and is doing, for me?

Yeah; at least that what is sounds like. I might be wrong...

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Are you saying that God doesn't tell us that there is nothing good in us? Are you saying that we are not agreeing with God when we acknowledge our unworthiness and the sinfulness of our nature?

God does NOT tell us there is nothing good in us; but He tells us that all of our goodness comes from the blood and grace of Jesus. When we claim (or acknowledge) our own unworthiness, we are DISAGREEING with God. He imparts the righteousness of His Son to us; and when we disagree, we are claiming that Jesus' righteousness is not enough. It is when we AGREE to our righteousness through faith, we are claiming Jesus' righteousness for ourselves, and God looks at us and sees the righteousness of His Son.

I'm NOT saying that we have absolutely no responsibility for our salvation. We do have to trust Jesus for our salvation. No matter how good we are; we will NEVER be good enough. Jesus is not only our example, He is our substitute.

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Isn't it just as possible to get caught up in looking to Jesus that we forget ourselves when He's working within us to change us? Can't we be as thankful for sanctification as we are for justification?

I hope to forget myself (looking to my own works for salvation) and look at only Jesus. I am SO thankful that both our justification and sanctification is from Jesus.

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Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe!

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But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor. 6:11)

[BobRyan]

1John 2:3-7 talks about the one who 'says' that he knows and loves God - and how such claims are validated or shown to be false.

1John 5:3-6 also talks about the one who says he loves the people of God - and how that claim is validated according to the Word of God.

The lost person comes to Christ - through surrender and "giving up".

The saved person remains with Christ - in the new birth, the new creation by "persevering in doing good" Romans 2:6-7 and by "Taking up his cross and following " Christ - according to Christ Himself in Matt 10.

It is right at these points that many a saved person stumbles and falls - returning to the lost state and yet supposing as they do in Rev 3 - Laodicea that "all is well".

Part of accepting the Bible as the Word of God - includes accepting the Bible AND the words IN the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

[joeb]

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Are saying that I don't understand that all my righteousness is worth nothing?

No; you may understand that; I'm just saying that your own righteousness is nothing. If you agree, (I know my righteousness is worth nothing) we have no issue.

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Are you saying that I think I can add to what Christ has done, and is doing, for me?

Yeah; at least that what is sounds like. I might be wrong...

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Are you saying that God doesn't tell us that there is nothing good in us? Are you saying that we are not agreeing with God when we acknowledge our unworthiness and the sinfulness of our nature?

God does NOT tell us there is nothing good in us; but He tells us that all of our goodness comes from the blood and grace of Jesus. When we claim (or acknowledge) our own unworthiness, we are DISAGREEING with God. He imparts the righteousness of His Son to us; and when we disagree, we are claiming that Jesus' righteousness is not enough. It is when we AGREE to our righteousness through faith, we are claiming Jesus' righteousness for ourselves, and God looks at us and sees the righteousness of His Son.

I'm NOT saying that we have absolutely no responsibility for our salvation. We do have to trust Jesus for our salvation. No matter how good we are; we will NEVER be good enough. Jesus is not only our example, He is our substitute.

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Isn't it just as possible to get caught up in looking to Jesus that we forget ourselves when He's working within us to change us? Can't we be as thankful for sanctification as we are for justification?

I hope to forget myself (looking to my own works for salvation) and look at only Jesus. I am SO thankful that both our justification and sanctification is from Jesus.

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Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe!

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But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor. 6:11)

[JoeMo]

Sounds to me like I just misunderstood your post and/or was having a bad day. We are cool.

I appreciate how you engage me and answer my questions rather than just throw quotes at me.

[joeb]

Sounds to me like I just misunderstood your post and/or was having a bad day. We are cool.

I appreciate how you engage me and answer my questions rather than just throw quotes at me.

Glad to hear we are in agreement. Hey, the give and take of this forum would be a pretty sad thing if all we could do is play "dueling quotes"....