Denying the power?

[joeb]

I brought this over from another thread because I didn't want to take that thread completely off topic, but thought that this idea was worth pursuing.

Quote:

We may not turn away from the "power" by denying the resurrection; but we turn away from the "power" in many other ways. For example:

- We deny the power of grace as the as the sole source of salvation and eternal life (i.e., we think we must keep the whole law (perfectly by the time Christ returns) or we are "toast(ed)".

I'd like to start with one of the most-used verses about salvation that speaks about grace and see what it really means.

Quote:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

According to Strong's the Greek word translated as grace is charis. Here is what Strong's says it means:

Quote:

5485 charis khar'-ece from 5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy). see GREEK for 5463

So, grace, as used here and in every place I've seen it used by Paul, can certainly be seen as "the divine influence upon the heart and its reflection in the life". So, is someone who says the grace that comes to us from knowing God, and surrendering our hearts to Him, is able to change our hearts into agreement with God's word, and thus keep us from sinning denying the power of grace?

[phkrause]

I like the way the CJB puts it

For you have been delivered by grace through trusting, and even this is not your accomplishment but God's gift.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

So, is someone who says the grace that comes to us from knowing God, and surrendering our hearts to Him, is able to change our hearts into agreement with God's word, and thus keep us from sinning denying the power of grace?

I don't know if I understand the question; but here is my attempt at an answer:

Grace (unmerited favor) is not only forgiveness of sin, reconciliation with God, and the gift of eternal life, it is the power to overcome sin. Yes, by grace God gives us the power to overcome sin; but it does not eliminate the power of temptation. We can still sin.

One thing that always concerns me is that, if grace is the power to overcome sin; and we are no longer slaves to sin, what does it say about us when we still fall to cherished sin? I ask this because this logic can lead to thinking that, if we are no longer slaves to sin, when we do sin, it is willful. That bothers me ...

[Live4Him]

Quote:

One thing that always concerns me is that, if grace is the power to overcome sin; and we are no longer slaves to sin, what does it say about us when we still fall to cherished sin? I ask this because this logic can lead to thinking that, if we are no longer slaves to sin, when we do sin, it is willful. That bothers me ...

Good question. I think if we still have cherished sin that we continue doing, we are still a slave to sin, we haven't truly submitted our selfish will to God's grace.

Quote:

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

It has been my experience that after a long initial struggle with certain sins, once I submitted my will to God, He worked very quickly to bring other areas of my life into line with His will. There seems to be a rapid cleaning house so to speak of your cherished sins or iniquity as the Bible calls it. Then as we grow in grace, God shows us something else that needs to be changed ect. As we grow closer and love God more, the more we want to "press toward the mark of the high calling of God" as Paul says. I personally think it is great that God has given us a way to escape satans grasp. It isn't always a pleasant battle, me and myself come away with black eyes quite often but when I listen to the Holy Spirit and submit to God there is such a feeling of happiness and exhilaration it's really hard to explain.

[Gibs]

Denying the power of Christ in you is the problem all have that fall back into cherished sin that is claimed they can't stop doing it.

The real problem here is the fact the person still has not made the the indwelling Christ the one and only Master. They have not killed self, pride and gratification.

Christ only must be made Master and self fully kept crucified and never to be resurrected again.

Born again! Dead of the old! Paul states it this way,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Denying the power of Christ in you is the problem all have that fall back into cherished sin that is claimed they can't stop doing it.

The real problem here is the fact the person still has not made the the indwelling Christ the one and only Master. They have not killed self, pride and gratification.

Christ only must be made Master and self fully kept crucified and never to be resurrected again.

Born again! Dead of the old! Paul states it this way,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

There is not a one of us who can do what I bolded above from your post. Not a single one of us. What we can do is choose to serve God, and choose to surrender each and every thing the Holy Spirit points out to us. That is our "work". The rest is God's work for there is no human being alive, ever been alive, or ever will be alive, who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean one.

It is God who sanctifies us. We do not do that. It is not our job, and if we try to make it our job we will not only utterly fail, but we will live miserable, joyless lives. That's the voice of experience talking.

[joeb]

Quote:

So, is someone who says the grace that comes to us from knowing God, and surrendering our hearts to Him, is able to change our hearts into agreement with God's word, and thus keep us from sinning denying the power of grace?

I don't know if I understand the question; but here is my attempt at an answer:

Grace (unmerited favor) is not only forgiveness of sin, reconciliation with God, and the gift of eternal life, it is the power to overcome sin. Yes, by grace God gives us the power to overcome sin; but it does not eliminate the power of temptation. We can still sin.

One thing that always concerns me is that, if grace is the power to overcome sin; and we are no longer slaves to sin, what does it say about us when we still fall to cherished sin? I ask this because this logic can lead to thinking that, if we are no longer slaves to sin, when we do sin, it is willful. That bothers me ...

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Denying the power of Christ in you is the problem all have that fall back into cherished sin that is claimed they can't stop doing it.

The real problem here is the fact the person still has not made the the indwelling Christ the one and only Master. They have not killed self, pride and gratification.

Christ only must be made Master and self fully kept crucified and never to be resurrected again.

Born again! Dead of the old! Paul states it this way,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

There is not a one of us who can do what I bolded above from your post. Not a single one of us. What we can do is choose to serve God, and choose to surrender each and every thing the Holy Spirit points out to us. That is our "work". The rest is God's work for there is no human being alive, ever been alive, or ever will be alive, who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean one.

It is God who sanctifies us. We do not do that. It is not our job, and if we try to make it our job we will not only utterly fail, but we will live miserable, joyless lives. That's the voice of experience talking.

Uh oh there Joeb, I must answer you thus,

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Christ in you and you are telling me and others you can't!

I will state this, Christ don't come and dwell within until you do make Him the only master. Self is still your master if you have no power to walk a new life above sin.

Born again and to be born again, there must be a death, and that is self, if he isn't killed of ruling in you, you of yourself can do nothing.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

You are I see an all out liberal.

You see I posted what Paul gave to get us to understand and it run off you like off a ducks back too.

Sure it is Jesus that cleanses us from all sin, only if we cooperate! There is no remedy for our past sins, so when we have repented He imputs to us His Merits and His White Robe to cover us and we are seen clean.

You are forgiven, pardoned,,He says go sin no more, I will abide in you and be your strength over all sin.

Will you let Him? Will you cooperate?

The question comes and is, who is our taskmaster?

"There is hope for every one of us, but only in one way—by fastening ourselves to Christ and exerting every energy to attain to the perfection of His character. This goody-goody religion that makes light of sin, and that is forever dwelling upon the love of God to the sinner, encourages sinners to believe that God will save them while they continue in sin and know it to be sin. This is the way that many are doing who profess to believe present truth. The truth is kept apart from their life, and that is the reason it has no more power to convict and convert the soul. There must be a straining of every nerve and spirit and muscle to leave the world, its customs, its practices, and its fashions. . . . {CTr 81.2}

The lives of many show that they have no living connection with God. They are drifting into the channel of the world. In reality they have no part or lot with Christ. They love amusement and are filled with selfish plans, hopes, and ambitions. They serve the enemy under the pretense of serving God. They are in bondage to a taskmaster, and this bondage they choose, making themselves willing slaves of Satan. . . . {CTr 81.3}

Let us make Jesus Christ our taskmaster and we will come off more than victors.

"He unites his infinite power with the effort of finite beings, that they may be more than victors in the battle with the enemy of their souls." {RH, October 30, 1888 par. 15}

Jesus in us is the Greater than All in us.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Uh oh there Joeb, I must answer you thus,

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Christ in you and you are telling me and others you can't!

I will state this, Christ don't come and dwell within until you do make Him the only master. Self is still your master if you have no power to walk a new life above sin.

Born again and to be born again, there must be a death, and that is self, if he isn't killed of ruling in you, you of yourself can do nothing.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

You are I see an all out liberal.

You see I posted what Paul gave to get us to understand and it run off you like off a ducks back too.

Sure it is Jesus that cleanses us from all sin, only if we cooperate! There is no remedy for our past sins, so when we have repented He imputs to us His Merits and His White Robe to cover us and we are seen clean.

You are forgiven, pardoned,,He says go sin no more, I will abide in you and be your strength over all sin.

Will you let Him? Will you cooperate?

The question comes and is, who is our taskmaster?

"There is hope for every one of us, but only in one way—by fastening ourselves to Christ and exerting every energy to attain to the perfection of His character. This goody-goody religion that makes light of sin, and that is forever dwelling upon the love of God to the sinner, encourages sinners to believe that God will save them while they continue in sin and know it to be sin. This is the way that many are doing who profess to believe present truth. The truth is kept apart from their life, and that is the reason it has no more power to convict and convert the soul. There must be a straining of every nerve and spirit and muscle to leave the world, its customs, its practices, and its fashions. . . . {CTr 81.2}

The lives of many show that they have no living connection with God. They are drifting into the channel of the world. In reality they have no part or lot with Christ. They love amusement and are filled with selfish plans, hopes, and ambitions. They serve the enemy under the pretense of serving God. They are in bondage to a taskmaster, and this bondage they choose, making themselves willing slaves of Satan. . . . {CTr 81.3}

Let us make Jesus Christ our taskmaster and we will come off more than victors.

"He unites his infinite power with the effort of finite beings, that they may be more than victors in the battle with the enemy of their souls." {RH, October 30, 1888 par. 15}

Jesus in us is the Greater than All in us.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

You are I see an all out liberal.

This is the reason I hate labels, because in some of his posts that I've read from joeb, he says he's conservative! All I can tell here is that he just doesn't agree with you so therefore he gets labeled? Unreal!

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

You are I see an all out liberal.

This is the reason I hate labels, because in some of his posts that I've read from joeb, he says he's conservative! All I can tell here is that he just doesn't agree with you so therefore he gets labeled? Unreal!

pkrause,

Do I just say I'm conservative, or do I promote conservative values and ideas?

[phkrause]

pkrause,

Do I just say I'm conservative, or do I promote conservative values and ideas?

I do recall somewhere you saying that you were a conservative. The problem I have with people either getting labeled or labeling themselves, is you can be conservative in one area but very liberal in another. No person is conservative or liberal in all areas. Your values and ideas as far as I can see don't promote either side.

[Gibs]

Most are very liberal in all churchs, you can tell that by the lack of Reverance in the Sanctuary.

Makes a must for a powerful sound system, but then what's the use if God isn't in it.

His Presence in it constitutes Church! Hadn't Reverance better be had then?

But He must be worshipped in Spirit and Truth or He will not be Present in it. Why? Because He is Spirit and if the truth isn't being taught He will not be there as nothing else is acceptable to Him.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

pkrause,

Do I just say I'm conservative, or do I promote conservative values and ideas?

I do recall somewhere you saying that you were a conservative. The problem I have with people either getting labeled or labeling themselves, is you can be conservative in one area but very liberal in another. No person is conservative or liberal in all areas. Your values and ideas as far as I can see don't promote either side.

Hmmm.... I don't know about this. You mean I'm balanced? Oh, no. Couldn't be. A conservative who has a balanced point of view?

I don't think I've ever been given a greater compliment. Thank you, pkrause....

[joeb]

Gibs,

Did I miss it somewhere, or didn't you answer my question as to what the quote I gave means?

[Gibs]

What was the question joeb, refresh me on it, I don't know that I didn't aswer any question.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

Hmmm.... I don't know about this. You mean I'm balanced? Oh, no. Couldn't be. A conservative who has a balanced point of view?

I don't think I've ever been given a greater compliment. Thank you, pkrause....

LOL, now lets not get carried away.

[Woody]

Quote:

You mean I'm balanced?

It's best not to label people. Not even yourself. lol

[BobRyan]

Grace (unmerited favor) is not only forgiveness of sin, reconciliation with God, and the gift of eternal life, it is the power to overcome sin. Yes, by grace God gives us the power to overcome sin; but it does not eliminate the power of temptation. We can still sin.

One thing that always concerns me is that, if grace is the power to overcome sin; and we are no longer slaves to sin, what does it say about us when we still fall to cherished sin? I ask this because this logic can lead to thinking that, if we are no longer slaves to sin, when we do sin, it is willful. That bothers me ...

What is the alternative?

Calvinism?

in Christ,

Bob

[Tom Wetmore]

The silliness of this sort of labeling is that it is all relative. In Russia, the conservatives are the communists who believe in and promote the traditional socialist agenda. The liberals are the capitalists. Here in America the conservatives are the staunch capitalists and accuse any liberal idea of being socialism.

To my secular friends, I would be considered quite conservative. To many of my fellow Adventists I am labeled as a liberal.

And it all means nothing useful since for those who see themselves as conservative, liberal = bad and conservative = good. To those who see themselves as liberal, conservative = bad and liberal = good.

I personally take great comfort in Ellen White's words where she states that the Pharisees thought Christ was too liberal because he would not conform to their ways.

Also well worth considering is her many warnings about being conservative...

[Woody]

Quote:

Do I just say I'm conservative, or do I promote conservative values and ideas?

I have no doubt that if we checked - I would be more conservative in some areas than you. But does this mean you are not conservative? No. Like pk says ... in some areas we are conservative and some areas we are liberal. So - to label someone as totally one way or the other is difficult.

[Gail]

I like the talk about God's power! By beholding Christ we become changed! That doesn't sound hard at all, although the evil one will do his best to keep us from beholding.

Joe mentioned in another place (and I have said it, too) that if we look on sins, ours or others', we are not looking upward.

And once we start looking across instead of up, then there is a danger of "vaunting" oneself, as 1 Cor. 13 says that love doesn't do... That means to put oneself above another by mentioning another's sin (guilty... ) to someone else.

There is so much joy in being with Christ, and in His word! Bring on the power and Lord- change me!! :)

[OzarkWoman]

Also well worth considering is her many warnings about being conservative...

OK...think about this. Conservatism back then was quite different than it is now. Back then, it was the Democrats who were the racists and wanted noone to have any real freedom if they were of a different color.

I don't believe EGW would say the same thing if she was alinve in this day and age. BTW, do you follow everything she said, ot can't you think for yourself?

Oops...mistake...I forgot that the Democrats are still the racists and wants to keep everyone in their own cubby holes.

[Gerr]

Half of me is a liberal conservative, and the other half is a conservative liberal.

[olger]

Double-mindedness can lead to split personality disORDER.