"Guilty until____________

[LifeHiscost]

proven innocent."

This, above, is the opposite of what has been known in America for most, over the last 2 centuries. Is that principle, a miscarriage of justice, receiving greater acceptance in the generation now living?

Quote:

NEW YORK (AP) — A man who spent more than two decades behind bars for the cold-blooded slaying of a Brooklyn rabbi was released Thursday into the arms of his weeping relatives after a reinvestigation by prosecutors cast serious doubt on evidence used to convict him.

"Sir, you are free to go," a judge told a smiling, white-haired David Ranta moments after prosecutors announced they supported tossing out the 1991 conviction.

Ranta's pregnant daughter — a 2-year-old when he was jailed — sisters and other supporters burst into applause and swarmed him as he walked out of the courtroom. His parents had died while he was in prison.

"I'm overwhelmed," the 58-year-old Ranta told reporters. "I feel like I'm under water, swimming."

The dramatic turnabout came after the Brooklyn district attorney's office filed paperwork on Wednesday saying it supported a defense motion to vacate the murder conviction and dismiss the indictment. After a recent review, they said they "no longer have sufficient evidence to prove the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt."

Before releasing Ranta, Judge Miriam Cyrulnik offered an apology: "To say I'm sorry for what you've endured would be an understatement. ... But I say it anyway."

Ranta had claimed he had been rotting in a Buffalo prison for no reason.

"Like I said from the beginning, I had nothing to do with this case," he said outside court.

God cares!

[Ted Oplinger]

proven innocent."

This is the opposite of what has been known in America for most, over the last 2 centuries. Is that principle, a miscarriage of justice, receiving greater acceptance in the generation now living?

Quote:

NEW YORK (AP) — A man who spent more than two decades behind bars for the cold-blooded slaying of a Brooklyn rabbi was released Thursday into the arms of his weeping relatives after a reinvestigation by prosecutors cast serious doubt on evidence used to convict him.

"Sir, you are free to go," a judge told a smiling, white-haired David Ranta moments after prosecutors announced they supported tossing out the 1991 conviction.

Ranta's pregnant daughter — a 2-year-old when he was jailed — sisters and other supporters burst into applause and swarmed him as he walked out of the courtroom. His parents had died while he was in prison.

"I'm overwhelmed," the 58-year-old Ranta told reporters. "I feel like I'm under water, swimming."

The dramatic turnabout came after the Brooklyn district attorney's office filed paperwork on Wednesday saying it supported a defense motion to vacate the murder conviction and dismiss the indictment. After a recent review, they said they "no longer have sufficient evidence to prove the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt."

Before releasing Ranta, Judge Miriam Cyrulnik offered an apology: "To say I'm sorry for what you've endured would be an understatement. ... But I say it anyway."

Ranta had claimed he had been rotting in a Buffalo prison for no reason.

"Like I said from the beginning, I had nothing to do with this case," he said outside court.

God cares!

Which principle -- guilty until proven innocent, or innocent until proven guilty?

The former is exactly how Satan runs his kingdom. The latter is how God runs his.

With godly principle being shoved aside for the sake of "caring" and "sensitivity", is it any wonder that it is now more often than not "guilty until proven innocent" is prevailing in today's USA?

Really - think about it...

How many crimes are today effectively guilty verdicts the moment a person is deemed "a person of interest"? All it takes is a reckless charge to ruin another person's life and reputation. The 9th Commandment is no longer a principle to today's society...

Blessings,

[Gerr]

I wonder how many people in prison who have been convicted of crime they did not commit? That is why the Investigative/Preadvent Judgment make so much sense!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

How many crimes are today effectively guilty verdicts the moment a person is deemed "a person of interest"? All it takes is a reckless charge to ruin another person's life and reputation. The 9th Commandment is no longer a principle to today's society...

Here is an interesting excerpt from a sermon about one of the commandments preached by someone probably of the opinion, "All the commandments are right to keep that God spoke, except the one I've chosen to overlook".

Quote:

Our criminal justice system is predicated upon truth. But is there much truth in the system today? When lying and falsehood prevail, there will be little justice. Why is perjury a crime? Because it thwarts justice. Perjurers are liars. One who is in the habit of always speaking the truth will never have to worry about perjuring himself. One of the seven abominations God hates is a false witness that speaks lies (Prov. 6:16-19). Perjury is wrong in the sight of God because it adversely affects peoples lives, sometimes even the outcome of one’s life. “A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful witness speaketh lies” (Prov. 14:25). Here is the Bible instruction. “These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates: And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the Lord” (Zech. 8:16-17). “And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the Lord of hosts” (Mal. 3:5). Perjury is not only a violation of the law of the land, it is a sin-a violation of the Law of God.

http://www.bethelcog.org/church/the-ten-commandments/ninth-commandment

Lying doesn't seem to have started as the first overlooked commandment but it does reveal in society, present acceptable behavior.

I believe it's Leviticus that reveals what God asks of His children, and the world needs to know why we're spiraling down out of control.

God cares!

[ClubV12]

Cops lie, they are trained to lie, for them, it's not immoral or unethical, it's part of the job. To sell drugs as an undercover cop. To offer sexual services as an undercover escort. To gain information on the street. To get a person to confess to a crime. Lie, is what they do for a living, everyday.

Not only cops. Cop counselors, probation and parole officers, district attorneys, all of them. It's what they do, it's their culture, it's their training, it's completely acceptable, until they get caught, busted and theres no way out. To preserve the semblance of the legal system, those who get caught have to be punished in some way. In order to cover up the ugly truth...

Society is constantly trained to believe that cops tell the truth. Some groups, like many African Americans, have figured it out, cops lie, it's what they do. Most Americans don't believe cops lie however. Until they get in the justice system and realize how rigged it is!

Now that cop (counselor, parole officer, etc.) is in court, suddenly, he/she is sworn to tell the truth, which is inconsistent with his daily routine. Do you think it is possible for a person who does one thing as a routine to switch that off like a light switch? It's not possible! Hopefully they will try their best to tell the truth, our legal system is based on the reasoning that they do tell the truth. But that,,, is a lie.

Whats wrong with this picture? No wonder there are a large number of innocent of the crime they were charged with in jail. The reasoning is, by most cops, they are surely guilty of something equally daming, so they deserve what they got.

Like the Jews were convinced the Gentiles slain by the Romans in the outer court of the Jewish Temple, deserved what they got. Obviously, they were sinners... Nothings changed.

[Gerr]

Cops lie, they are trained to lie, for them, it's not immoral or unethical, it's part of the job. To sell drugs as an undercover cop. To offer sexual services as an undercover escort. To gain information on the street. To get a person to confess to a crime. Lie, is what they do for a living, everyday.

Not only cops. Cop counselors, probation and parole officers, district attorneys, all of them. It's what they do, it's their culture, it's their training, it's completely acceptable, until they get caught, busted and theres no way out. To preserve the semblance of the legal system, those who get caught have to be punished in some way. In order to cover up the ugly truth...

Society is constantly trained to believe that cops tell the truth. Some groups, like many African Americans, have figured it out, cops lie, it's what they do. Most Americans don't believe cops lie however. Until they get in the justice system and realize how rigged it is!

Now that cop (counselor, parole officer, etc.) is in court, suddenly, he/she is sworn to tell the truth, which is inconsistent with his daily routine. Do you think it is possible for a person who does one thing as a routine to switch that off like a light switch? It's not possible! Hopefully they will try their best to tell the truth, our legal system is based on the reasoning that they do tell the truth. But that,,, is a lie.

Whats wrong with this picture? No wonder there are a large number of innocent of the crime they were charged with in jail. The reasoning is, by most cops, they are surely guilty of something equally daming, so they deserve what they got.

Like the Jews were convinced the Gentiles slain by the Romans in the outer court of the Jewish Temple, deserved what they got. Obviously, they were sinners... Nothings changed.

Do you have references to back this up?

[phkrause]

Even though I'm in partial agreement with you, and I don't condone what they are doing, cops have a lot of pressure on them from the people. Wanting them to get these criminals off the streets, but yet at the same time those people don't lift a finger to help. As far as being trained to lie, this I can not buy. I can only say that it comes out of necessity to get the job done.

[ClubV12]

Lets say your an undercover cop, you think your going undercover without some training on how to lie? Lets say your FBI or CIA or any number of other "agents". Lieing is as much a science as an art. Some "cops" are just naturally better at it than others, these are often the ones who rise to the rank of Detective. Where the nature of the work is to discover things that are hidden by crooks that are also skilled in lieing!

As I said, it's not immoral (from a cop perspective), it's not unethical and it's a well known fact by any defense attorny worth his salt. That they lie and are trained to lie is not the question:

The question is: CAN they "turn off" the lie switch when it comes time to write a report? To testify in court? To suggest to a witness what they might want to say? To which person they might want to point out in a lineup? Do they ask questions that would be forbidden in a court of law, that is, "leading questions"? Questions designed to get the answer they want, or to confuse the witness?

I am not surprised at the response that it is difficult to wrap your head around these fundamental truths of how police agencies work. The Government has it covered, it's called "plausible deniability", a fancy word for "lie". Think about it, it is rampant within law enforcement, it goes all the way to the top, to the Presidents desk.

The question is: Is it wrong? Is there ever a time when lieing is OK? If so, when is that time? When you KNOW, for SURE, the "perp" is guilty but you don't have a case that will hold up in court. Is it OK then? Would you be willing to do to "seek justice" in such a case? Would you be willing to lie and excuse it as justice?

What IS a lie? Ellen White says it can even be TRUTH told in such a way as to mislead. A nod of the head, a wave of the hand when done in such a way as to deceive.

Count on it, "cops" are the most skillful liers in the world, and maybe, thats not a bad thing? Unless it is YOU being prosecuted and everyone is convinced your guilty when you are not!

Polygraphers (lie detector machine operators) base their findings as much on their own ability to detect a lie as they do on their machine. Facial expressions, eye contact, hands crossed or not, hesitancy to answer. Cops are trained in all aspects of detecting a lie, which is effectively training for HOW to lie at the very least!

[ClubV12]

There have been studies by pyschologists and the like about whether or not cops can "flip the switch" at will from lieing to truthing.

Consider the environment cops work in, people lie to them constantly, everyday. It is well known many cops get to the place that they question EVERYONE. Their neighbors, children, spouse. Their life is so wrapped up in people lieing to them a form of paranoia sets it, quite common among law enforcement. No question, cops are the most skilled liars on the planet, they practice it everyday!

Can they "flip the switch", asks science? VERY difficult is the answer, this a major problem with law enforcement, there is no solution that I'm aware of. A certain percentage of people in jail WILL BE innocent as a result, there is no way around it.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

there is no solution that I'm aware of.

If you're speaking from the standpoint of a world without a Savior, you're correct. As a disciple of Christ I find your assessment short on spiritual vision.

"“ But is it impossible for me? says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies."Zechariah 8:6 NLT

This is a rhetorical question re: a totally different subject but I'm satisfied to believe in reference to God, the principle is almost 100% true. The small part that isn't true about it might be better left to another topic.

God cares!

[ClubV12]

Certainly my observations apply to a secular world. BUT, lets assume the "agent" or "cop" in question is a Christian, as it certainly the case for some.

Imagine the temptation and the delima of letting someone walk who is truly dangerous while you are 100% SURE they are guilty, but can't prove it. It is your duty to protect society, your own family even. Is stretching the truth to some degree OK?

We do have several examples from the bible where the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth were witheld, modified or spoken in such a way as to mislead. And I believe there are such examples that can be and have been sanctioned by the Lord! Obviously we also have examples of the same, lies, NOT sanctioned by God. Abraham is such an example. But is not always prudent, moral or ethical to reveal all that you know. It is acceptable, even for Christians, in some circumstances to make a statement that would normally be considered a "lie". Very tricky subject matter here...

This does not justify the above example of an agent who is SURE the dangerous person is about to walk, necessarily.

[phkrause]

If you're speaking from the standpoint of a world without a Savior, you're correct. As a disciple of Christ I find your assessment short on spiritual vision.

"“ But is it impossible for me? says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies."Zechariah 8:6 NLT

This is a rhetorical question re: a totally different subject but I'm satisfied to believe in reference to God, the principle is almost 100% true. The small part that isn't true about it might be better left to another topic.

God cares!

LHC, even though I'm in agreement with your post, we are talking about "Guilty until ___" on this earth not in the heavenly courts. There's no reason though that we can't pray for that to happen here on earth.

[ClubV12]

Did Moses lie to Pharoah and if so, was it sanctioned by God to do so?

Moses says, "A three day journey, make a few offerings, what could possibly go wrong?"

Inferring of course that he would return, in three days. According to Ellen Whites definition of lieing, thats what Moses did! Maybe he was under different rules that we are today and back then it was OK to lie?

What about the Jewish family hiding in a Nazi home? To reveal them would certainly mean their death! MOST Christians would say they would tell the truth and leave that up to God. But God doesn't want us to be totally naive, we are to be wise as serpants, harmless as doves.

Did you know, 90% of Americans admit routinely lieing about something? I suppose a large percentage of them are Christians, even Christian police officers!

What if, you were smuggling bibles into Iran? Hidden somewhere in your luggage? What would you say when the crossing gaurd asked you about such a thing?

Lieing is like murder. It is justifiable in some cases to KILL, but it is never justifiable to murder.

[LifeHiscost]

This is the reason why I emphasize the original command of God did not say "Thou shalt not lie.", but "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor" Later on He did say thou shalt not lie unto each other, and I am assuming the difference is perhaps the nuance that protection of the Israelites against another brother in their weaknesses as opposed to telling stories against anyone to convey possible harm on purpose.

Also I ran across this comment re: the wildlife of the seas being harmed by men. I was beginning to see myself as the only one who shared these sentiments. Not many have publicly voiced what appears to be so obvious.

Pilot whales beach in South Africa

By CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA | Associated Press

Peter Goesinya • 46 mins ago

this world sucks.

God cares!

[ClubV12]

LifeHiscost, well done, I think you see the subtle differences and problems this concept of "Is it OK to lie" present.

That cop is that 100% SURE the "perp" is guilty but can't prove it? He is duty bound to follow the law. The prosecuting attorney, the grand jury, the Judge must make that call as to guilt or innocence, not the cop, who can only submit the evidence he has to work with. What WILL the cop do? I submit in far to many cases, he will lie, even falsify evidence. That cannot be justified in any way by our legal system or by Christian ethics.

I would tell the Nazi's, without hesitation, "No, I haven't seen any Jews." I believe Ellen White would have done the same when helping or hiding slaves during the Civil War.

[Liz]

Corrie Ten Boom hid Jews, they had a small area under the floor boards of the dining room, on top of the floor boards they put the family dining room table. She swore she would not lie. So when the soldiers came and they out right asked her where the Jews were hidden she told them, "under the table", of course they didn't see anything under the table and they smacked her around thinking she was either crazy or making fun of them.