A few quotes I love on authority and ministry

[whatisthis]

I have been going over quotes to try to get a wide view of what is comprised by authority, ministry, etc. I thought I'd share a few quotes, and please don't think I'm trying to be an authority on this topic! I'm just trying to study with all of you on what should be!

On the subject of authority:

There must be a Divine and infallible authority in the Church. That authority cannot be the Church herself, for the guide and those whom he guides cannot be the same. The Divine infallible authority which Wicliffe restored for the guidance of men was the Bible - God speaking in His Word. And by setting up this Divine authority he displaced that human and fallible authority which the corruption of the ages had imposed upon the Church. He turned the eyes of men from Popes and Councils to the inspired oracles of God. “The Bible is the foundation deed of the Church, its charter. History of Protestantism Vol 1 p 126 (This is not an EG White quote, it’s a reference commonly referred to by Protestants of her day. She quoted from this source, it was widely read and accepted by Protestants in general.)

Now on the type of ministries needed:

In ancient times, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses with his meekness and wisdom, and Joshua with his varied capabilities, were all enlisted in God’s service. The music of Miriam, the courage and piety of Deborah, the filial affection of Ruth, the obedience and faithfulness of Samuel, the stern fidelity of Elijah, the softening, subduing influence of Elisha—all were needed. So now all upon whom God’s blessing has been bestowed are to respond by actual service; every gift is to be employed for the advancement of His kingdom and the glory of His name. COL 301.1

About the role of the law of God:

The law of duty [to God] is supreme. It claims authority over reason and conscience, over talents and possessions. It will admit no rival, and will not for one moment abate its high demands. It enters into no compromise with any oppressive power of earth. In every act of duty we are hiding self in Jesus. We reach out beyond ourselves, beyond the narrow scope of selfish and present gratification. Obedience to God brings the soul into agreement with the highest laws in the universe. It imparts dignity and true greatness to the humblest occupation where Christ can preside. It crowns the lowliest position in life with the highest honors, bringing men into alliance with God and binding up His interests with plans and purposes that have existence in the infinite mind from eternity. Upward Look 25.3

About artisan-ministries:

Christ, the Lord of the whole earth, was a humble artisan. He was unrecognized, neglected, and despised. But He held His commission and authority from the highest power, the Sovereign of heaven. Angels were His attendants, for Christ was doing His Father’s business just as much when toiling at the bench as a carpenter, as when working miracles for the multitude. But He concealed the secret from the world. He attached no high titles to His name, to make His position understood, but He lived the royal law of God. His work must begin in consecrating the humble trade of the craftsmen who have toiled for their daily bread. Had Christ passed His life among the grand and the rich, the world of toilers would have been deprived of the inspiration which the Lord intended they should have. Upward Look 67.3

More about types of ministries and ministers needed:

The angels of God are ready and waiting to go with humble men who with their Bibles in their hands will go to those who have not had this light, and read to them a “Thus saith the Lord.”

Those who have the gift of song are needed. The melody of praise is the atmosphere of heaven. Often by the words of sacred songs, the springs of penitence and faith have been unsealed. Song is one of the most effective means of impressing spiritual truth upon the heart.

Let little companies of workers go out as the Lord’s missionaries, and do as Christ commissioned the first disciples to do. . . . . Will you heed His voice? Will you become His messengers? Will you seek the sheep that are lost? Will you teach the Word in all humility and earnestness to those who will hear?

Young men and women, take up the work to which God calls you. Tell the wondrous story of the cross. Christ will lead you, and teach you to use your abilities to good purpose. As you receive the quickening influence of the Holy Spirit, and you seek to teach others, your minds will be refreshed, and you will be enabled to present words that are new and strangely beautiful to your hearers. Pray, and sing, and speak the word.... Upward Look 91.2-

About manly dignity:

My brother, do not feel that it is below your dignity to make a decided change. You must place yourself at the feet of Christ as a learner, else you will surely fail of obtaining the overcomer’s reward. Lay off your commanding, kingly authority, and become one of God’s little children. Until you are willing to study and obey God’s will, you will be overcome by temptations and led to do strange things, which will disqualify you for filling a position of influence. Upward Look 119.4

More about the positions of original reformers:

Like after-reformers, Wycliffe did not, at the opening of his work, foresee whither it would lead him. He did not set himself deliberately in opposition to Rome. But devotion to truth could not but bring him in conflict with falsehood. The more clearly he discerned the errors of the papacy, the more earnestly he presented the teaching of the Bible. He saw that Rome had forsaken the Word of God for human tradition; he fearlessly accused the priesthood of having banished the Scriptures, and demanded that the Bible be restored to the people, and that its authority be again established in the church. He was an able and earnest teacher, and an eloquent preacher, and his daily life was a demonstration of the truths he preached. His knowledge of the Scriptures, the force of his reasoning, the purity of his life, and his unbending courage and integrity, won for him general esteem and confidence. GC88 80

About the law of God in relation to respect to parents, both male and female:

In many heathen nations . . . the mother was treated with little respect, and, upon the death of her husband, was required to submit to the authority of her eldest son. Filial obedience was enjoined by Moses; but as the Israelites departed from the Lord, the fifth commandment, with others, came to be disregarded. EP 235.2

About authority in the home:

—It is no evidence of manliness in the husband for him to dwell constantly upon his position as head of the family. It does not increase respect for him to hear him quoting Scripture to sustain his claims to authority. It will not make him more manly to require his wife, the mother of his children, to act upon his plans as if they were infallible. The Lord has constituted the husband the head of the wife to be her protector; he is the house-band of the family, binding the members together, even as Christ is the head of the church and the Saviour of the mystical body. Let every husband who claims to love God carefully study the requirements of God in his position. Christ’s authority is exercised in wisdom, in all kindness and gentleness; so let the husband exercise his power and imitate the great Head of the church.13 AH 215.1

Another one about the way the reformers were freed from tradition:

Wycliffe accepted the Holy Scriptures with implicit faith as the inspired revelation of God’s will, a sufficient rule of faith and practice. He had been educated to regard the Church of Rome as the divine, infallible authority, and to accept with unquestioning reverence the established teachings and customs of a thousand years; but he turned away from all these to listen to God’s holy word. This was the authority which he urged the people to acknowledge. Instead of the church speaking through the pope, he declared the only true authority to be the voice of God speaking through His word. And he taught not only that the Bible is a perfect revelation of God’s will, but that the Holy Spirit is its only interpreter, and that every man is, by the study of its teachings, to learn his duty for himself. Thus he turned the minds of men from the pope and the Church of Rome to the word of God. GC 93.2

About lordly authority:

There is need of an education in regard to the rights and duties of men in authority who have lorded it over God’s heritage. When a man is placed in a position of trust, who knows not what kind of spirit he should exercise in dealing with human minds, he needs to learn the very first principles as to his authority over his fellow-men. Right principles must be brought into the heart, and wrought into the warp and woof of character.—Letter 83, 1896 (May 22, 1896 to O. A. Olsen). ChL 32.1

[debbym]

Quote:

There is need of an education in regard to the rights and duties of men in authority who have lorded it over God’s heritage. When a man is placed in a position of trust, who knows not what kind of spirit he should exercise in dealing with human minds, he needs to learn the very first principles as to his authority over his fellow-men. Right principles must be brought into the heart, and wrought into the warp and woof of character.—Letter 83, 1896 (May 22, 1896 to O. A. Olsen). ChL 32.1

Love this one!!

no less true for women.

[ClubV12]

Whats missing here, and in every article and SOP quote I've seen to date on the subject, is direct authorization, suggestion or even the implying of a woman being suitable to be the leader of a Church. Obviously women are highly thought of and capable of doing work in areas where men can't. Or where men would not be as successful. They can preach, evangelize and just about everything else.

But there is no SOP counsel that directly and clearly specifices they should or are qualified (by biblical standards) to lead a Church. And THAT is the real question that is under consideration by the G.C. CAN a women lead a Church,IS the question.

[Johann]

Whats missing here, and in every article and SOP quote I've seen to date on the subject, is direct authorization, suggestion or even the implying of a woman being suitable to be the leader of a Church. Obviously women are highly thought of and capable of doing work in areas where men can't. Or where men would not be as successful. They can preach, evangelize and just about everything else.

But there is no SOP counsel that directly and clearly specifices they should or are qualified (by biblical standards) to lead a Church. And THAT is the real question that is under consideration by the G.C. CAN a women lead a Church,IS the question.

What you might forget is that the General Conference through the Church Manual has already approved of commissioned ministers who as local elders can be ordained and perform all of the duties of an ordained minister except serve as conference presidents and organize churches. We do have a number of these ordained ministers who have served the church for some years.

All that was done in some places was to issue these women with new papers since they were ordained already.

[Tom Wetmore]

...But there is no SOP counsel that directly and clearly specifices they should or are qualified (by biblical standards) to lead a Church. And THAT is the real question that is under consideration by the G.C. CAN a women lead a Church,IS the question.

How about the statement by EGW -

Quote:

It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. If faithful women have more deep piety and true devotion than men, they could indeed by their prayers and their labors do more than men who are unconsecrated in heart and in life.--19MR 56. {PaM 36.2}

Or perhaps this one -

Quote:

It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors unto the flock of God. {RH, November 7, 1899, par. 13}

[ClubV12]

"It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. If faithful women have more deep piety and true devotion than men, they could indeed by their prayers and their labors do more than men who are unconsecrated in heart and in life."--19MR 56

"Successful management of a Church..." may be the key phrase here. Like some other quotes I've seen, it could be interpreted to mean leadership of a Church, or not. Correct interpretation is the key. Like the bible the testimonies will interpret themself if we are careful in our study and search for truth. No doubt this will be one quote looked at closely by the G.C. study group.

"It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors unto the flock of God." {RH, November 7, 1899, par. 13}

As Johann mentioned, the Church has had this since Ellen Whites time, licensed women Pastors. But are they authorized to lead a Church? Ellen White did not, but I think her roll in that regard is irrelevant because she had such a distinct calling and work.

As for myself I'm leaning more toward the question of whether or not even women Church Elders are authorized by God in that capacity. BUT, the World Church has spoken on that issue, so it's done and I will honor that decision for the time being. Pending "new light" if you would.

It would be nice to have at least one thread where we could really discuss this most pertinent question on the issue and not get side tracked by the obvious. Women can, do and will play a significant roll within the Church. In some cases their abilities exceed that of men and they are needful for the cause.

But can they lead a Church or hold the highest office, according to scripture and the SOP?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

...But there is no SOP counsel that directly and clearly specifices they should or are qualified (by biblical standards) to lead a Church. And THAT is the real question that is under consideration by the G.C. CAN a women lead a Church,IS the question.

Quote:

It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors unto the flock of God. {RH, November 7, 1899, par. 13}

Regarding the above quote: if one reads the context, the whole article is on "The Canvassing Work." It has nothing to do with men OR women leading specific churches. Rather, Ellen White writes about canvassers who bring the Word of God to people who would otherwise not hear or read it. It is to *those* people that the canvassers are are metaphorically referred to as "pastors."

Quote:

It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. If faithful women have more deep piety and true devotion than men, they could indeed by their prayers and their labors do more than men who are unconsecrated in heart and in life.--19MR 56. {PaM 36.2}

"...by their prayers and their labors" is the pertinent phrase.. What "labors," exactly, did women in the church do when this was written?

[ClubV12]

Pam, I would think many of the same rolls today were carried out by women in Ellen Whites time as it concerns "management"

To a large degree the "management" of a Church is through committee. Church board, secretary, etc. I ASSUME that women were included in Church boards and such in Ellen Whites time? If not typically and wide spread, certainly in cases where there were few other options.

[Tom Wetmore]

Regarding the above quote: if one reads the context, the whole article is on "The Canvassing Work." It has nothing to do with men OR women leading specific churches. Rather, Ellen White writes about canvassers who bring the Word of God to people who would otherwise not hear or read it. It is to *those* people that the canvassers are are metaphorically referred to as "pastors."

I understand the context. What she was saying is that working in the door-to-door literature ministry is good training for regular pastoral ministry. Elsewhere she makes that very clear. What is different in this quote is that she includes women as also being prepared for pastoral ministry. She is not metaphorically creating a division in the "flock" to be shepherded as a separate group from the rest of the church. The whole point of literature ministry then as now was to bring the lost sheep into the church. That is why it came to be known as literature evangelism.

Quote:

It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. If faithful women have more deep piety and true devotion than men, they could indeed by their prayers and their labors do more than men who are unconsecrated in heart and in life.--19MR 56. {PaM 36.2}

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

"...by their prayers and their labors" is the pertinent phrase.. What "labors," exactly, did women in the church do when this was written?

It is right there in the preceding sentence - "management of a church". That is not some mysterious concept. It was as it was in NT times and still is today. The management was the role of overseers - elders and bishops. They were the leadership that managed or oversaw the affairs of the Church. Adventists of course do not use the term bishop. But we do refer to our pastors by the title of "Elder". What has happened is the role of pastors has evolved in the Adventist Church to include the role of overseer. At the local level it is in conjunction with the local body of elders (now more commonly known as the board of elders, or simply the church board). And at the higher levels of the Church the leadership (Elders) is predominantly clergy, or pastors. Their role is to oversee or manage the work of the Church on a wider scale. That we work through committees is very much in keeping with the NT tradition of governance or management by a council or the body of elders. Each level of the Church is managed by such a group.

What EGW was simply saying was that women should not be excluded from this important responsibility, the prayerful labor of management of a church.

[ClubV12]

I agree with much of what you have said on this Tom. I see today that women are involved in the management of a Church, along with many others.

I don't see any evidence from NT times that that included a women Minister as the leader of any given Church. A concept some refer to today as "headship". I am aware of Johanns position on the "headship" concept, that it never existed until some certain time in modern history, was never taught in our schools before then, etc.

I don't agree. The concept of "headship" is just the word we currently use to describe what has always been since the time of Paul and before then. The leader of an individual Church was a man, he was the "head" of that Church. Thus, this concept of "headship" has always existed.

[Tom Wetmore]

Phoebe.

Headship - The church has but one head, Christ. Paul makes that very clear. No human head of the church, male or female.

And ministry is not about being the head of anything. The word literally means "to serve". The NT term most frequently translate as "minister" was diakonos, from which we get the word deacon. It literally meant "servant". The less commonly used term in the NT of "pastor" literally meant shepherd, which was effectively the same since a shepherd was a low order of servant. NT scholars see the two terms as being used interchangeably.

[debbym]

Quote:

The concept of "headship" is just the word we currently use to describe what has always been since the time of Paul and before then. The leader of an individual Church was a man, he was the "head" of that Church. Thus, this concept of "headship" has always existed.

club can you enumerate on what the tasks of a man that has headship of a church are? who does he exercise his authority over?

i can see if some cult leader came into a church or some male child molester, then it would be good to have a guy trained and ready to direct them as to what they should do, in a correct way and effectively. but a good elder could do these things,

so what does the headship person do in carrying out that headship in a full and strong and healthy manner.

preaching can be done by a variety of good lay leaders, committees can be headed by good administrators, the sick can be visited by many, and bible studies given by many, do we need a special collar to marry and baptize? is that it?

i am honestly curious as to your view.

pastors are just human, and important pastors in position of headship can fail and lead their members astray... having a male headship pastor does not in any way decide safety and success.

[ClubV12]

Jesus is certainly the "head" and He serves the Church! All of heaven is ordered and we know there are leadership positions there. Lucifer is one such example and there are many others in the bible. A "chain of command" and at the top is the Captain of the Lords host. ALL love and live to serve each other.

His Church on earth is patterned in the same way, that is not a diffcult thing to grasp. There is order, there are leaders, all submit and serve one another, as they do in the heavenly courts. The early Church also had a General Conference, making decisions and rules and telling the rest of the Church about it. AND expecting them to follow those standards.

Debbym, I haven't researched enough to understand exactly where the duties of the leading Minister end. For instance, if the Church board votes to do something the Minister disagrees with, can he overide them? That may depend on specific Church law, I don't know what other instances in which that might apply.

You know, the BIGGER question for me is: What if I don't like what the Church board decided or don't like what the Pastor decided. What is the correct response to that is right on target for what we are dealing with concerning W.O.

[whatisthis]

Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

[whatisthis]

Jesus is certainly the "head" and He serves the Church! All of heaven is ordered and we know there are leadership positions there. Lucifer is one such example and there are many others in the bible. A "chain of command" and at the top is the Captain of the Lords host. ALL love and live to serve each other.

His Church on earth is patterned in the same way, that is not a diffcult thing to grasp. There is order, there are leaders, all submit and serve one another, as they do in the heavenly courts. The early Church also had a General Conference, making decisions and rules and telling the rest of the Church about it. AND expecting them to follow those standards.

Please show me those verses from the Bible about the General Conference. How long a period did the General Conference President hold office before re-election? How often did they hold sessions? Who was Vice President? How many conferences did they have and who were the Conference Presidents? When did they tell the rest of the church about it?

[ClubV12]

What? You never heard about the Peter, Paul and officials representing the rest of the early Churches through out the world holding a session to review doctrinal points? I'm surprised!

They dealt with a couple of issues, made a decision and then sent letters and/or spokes persons out to all the Churches to inform them of the decisions.

In addition to the instructions from the G.C. Paul also sent out his own personal letters of instruction. To various Churches, sometimes chastising them for promoting false doctrine. You gotta love Pauls sarcasm, in one case he asked the Church who made them the know it alls of doctrine! He told them, flat out, there is one doctrine. Paul didn't tolerate fools, fanatics or rebellion very well.

That early G.C. dealt with things like:

Circumcision and eating meat offered to idols. The early Church was quite well organized. They had Church law that was strictly enforced. They approved of disfellowshiping, censure and in two cases the death penalty for lying to the Holy Spirit was announced and immediately carried out on the spot!

This is all in the New Testament, I love Church history!

[debbym]

Quote:

In addition to the instructions from the G.C. Paul also sent out his own personal letters of instruction. To various Churches, sometimes chastising them for promoting false doctrine. You gotta love Paul's sarcasm, in one case he asked the Church who made them the know it alls of doctrine! He told them, flat out, there is one doctrine. Paul didn't tolerate fools, fanatics or rebellion very well.

Sad to say there was deep division in the church even after Pentecost on God's acceptance of the Gentiles in the Judeo-Christian Church, and not requiring of them Jewish conformity.

As a result on Paul's last trip to Jerusalem, he submitted to a Jewish rite with some Gentile Christians being imposed upon. He yielded to the "authority of the church leaders in Jerusalem". This resulted in his being prematurely taken and lead to his early death. Which was not God's will for Him and for the young Church to lose Paul at that time. This is according the inspiration in acts of the apostles.

There was no pure Godly holy male leaders that were so connected to heaven they could not make serious mistakes like this, including Paul.

we just cannot look to human beings like this.

[ClubV12]

Debbym says,

"There was no pure Godly holy male leaders..."

I won't that take to imply there might have been or could be women who reach such a lofty height either!

We should never compare ourselves among ourselves, but the one true standard only. It is worth noting that we do have few shining examples of excellent obediance and loyalty to God. Joseph, Daniel, Elijah. Not the murdering Moses, David (or even Paul), wait, they too were men God loved and used in His cause.

...carry on.

[whatisthis]

Here are some good ideas on how to be one with Christ:

My brethren and sisters, take your stand on an elevated platform, and work to the point to be one with Christ. The heart of the Saviour is set upon his followers’ fulfilling God’s purpose in all its height and depth. They are to be one with him, even though they are scattered the world over. But God can not make them one in Christ unless they are willing to give up their own way for his way.

In view of all that Christ has suffered for us, should we complain when we are called to endure self-denial and suffering? Would not this make God ashamed of us? Let us rejoice that it is our privilege to be partakers of Christ’s suffering; for thus only can we be fitted to be partakers of his glory.

. . .

Brethren and sisters, let us have characters so pure and holy that Christ can with joy present us to the Father. Let us be filled with the living principles of the truth for this time. Let us live lives that will lead sinners to the Saviour. Christ carried his humanity with him into the heavenly courts, and all humanity can claim him as their representative. We may be made complete in him. How?—By becoming partakers of the divine nature. To be partakers of this nature means more than many of us realize. It means giving up one’s own way, and following the path that Christ has marked out. As we become partakers of the divine nature, we escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Review and Herald June1, 1905

About obedience:

The question, “What is truth?” should be asked with decided interest. We must respond to the command of God, and go forward from light to a greater light. There is no such thing as the soldiers of Christ standing still, careless and inactive. There are constant improvements to be made. The providence of God is leading us on step by step in the path of obedience. Let parents and teachers impress upon the minds of the children that the Lord is proving them in this life, to see if they will render obedience to Him with love and reverence. Those who would not be obedient to Christ here would not obey Him in the eternal world. The Lord is seeking to fit them for the heavenly mansion that Jesus has gone to prepare for those who love Him.—Testimonies on Sabbath-School Work, 31, 32. CSW 79.2

About human authority:

Sometimes a man who has been placed in responsibility as a leader, gains the idea that he is in a position of supreme authority, and that all of his brethren, before making advance moves, must first come to him for permission to do that which they feel should be done. Such a man is in a dangerous position. He has lost sight of the work of a true leader among God’s people. Instead of acting as a wise counselor, he assumes the prerogatives of an exacting ruler. God is dishonored by every such display of authority and self-exaltation. No man standing in his own strength is ever to be mind and judgment for another man whom the Lord is using in His work. No one is to lay down man-made rules and regulations to govern arbitrarily his fellow laborers who have a living experience in the truth.—Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, 491. ChL 33.1

About the time and purpose of the first ordination after Christ’s resurrection:

The Christian church was at this time [the time of the first ordination] entering upon an important era. The work of proclaiming the gospel message among the Gentiles was now to be prosecuted with vigor; and as a result, the church was to be strengthened by a great ingathering of souls. The apostles who had been appointed to lead out in this work, would be exposed to suspicion, prejudice, and jealousy. Their teachings concerning the breaking down of “the middle wall of partition” [Ephesians 2:14.] that had so long separated the Jewish and the Gentile world, would naturally subject them to the charge of heresy; and their authority as ministers of the gospel would be questioned by many zealous, believing Jews. GW 441.2

About Paul and Barnabas and why they were the first ordained as ministers after Christ’s resurrection:

Both Paul and Barnabas had already received their commission from God Himself, and the ceremony of the laying on of hands added no new grace or virtual qualification. It was an acknowledged form of designation to an appointed office, and a recognition of one’s authority in that office. By it the seal of the church was set upon the work of God. . . .

God foresaw the difficulties that His servants would be called to meet; and in order that their work should be above challenge, He instructed the church by revelation to set them apart publicly to the work of the ministry. Their ordination was a public recognition of their divine appointment to bear to the Gentiles the glad tidings of the gospel. GW 442.1,3

About what ordination means:

To the Jew, this form [ordination] was a significant one. When a Jewish father blessed his children, he laid his hands reverently upon their heads. When an animal was devoted to sacrifice, the hand of the one invested with priestly authority was laid upon the head of the victim. And when the ministers of the church of believers in Antioch laid their hands upon Paul and Barnabas, they by that action asked God to bestow His blessing upon the chosen apostles, in their devotion to the specific work to which they had been appointed.

At a later date, the rite of ordination by the laying on of hands was greatly abused; unwarrantable importance was attached to the act, as if a power came at once upon those who received such ordination, which immediately qualified them for any and all ministerial work. But in the setting apart of these two apostles, there is no record indicating that any virtue was imparted by the mere act of laying on of hands. There is only the simple record of their ordination, and of the bearing that it had on their future work. GW 442.2,3

About investing men with authority to judge and rule:

It is dangerous work to invest men with authority to judge and rule their fellow men. Not to you nor to any other man has been given power to control the actions of God’s people, and the effort to do this must be no longer continued.... God has been dishonored by the education that has been given to the churches in Southern California in looking to one man as conscience and judgment for them. God has never authorized any man to exercise a ruling power over his fellow-workers; and those who have allowed a dictatorial spirit to come into their official work need to experience the converting power of God upon their hearts. They have placed man where God should be.—Letter 290, 1907, pp. 2, 3 (August 29, 1907). ChL 33.4

[whatisthis]

Here are some good quotes on meekness and wisdom in God's ministry:

The one who is in trust of sacred responsibilities should ever show forth the meekness and wisdom of Christ; for it is thus that he becomes a representative of Christ’s character and methods. Never should he usurp authority or command or threaten, saying, “Unless you do as I say, you will receive no pay from the conference.” A man who would speak such words is out of his place as president of a conference. He would make men slaves to his judgment.—Letter 416, 1907, pp. 5, 6 (December 30, 1907 to A. G. Daniells and W. C. White).

How my heart aches to see presidents of conferences taking the burden of selecting those whom they think they can mold to work with them in the field. They take those who will not differ with them, but will act like mere machines. No president has any right to do this. Leave others to plan; and if they fail in some things, do not take it as an evidence that they are unfitted to be thinkers. Our most responsible men had to learn by a long discipline how to use their judgment.—Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, 304.

I have been shown that there is one practice which those in responsible places should avoid; for it is detrimental to the work of God. Men in position should not lord it over God’s heritage and command everything around them. Too many have marked out a prescribed one which they wish others to follow in the work. Workers have tried to do this with blind faith, without exercising their own judgment upon the matter which they had in hand. If those who were placed as directors were not present, they have followed their implicit directions just the same. But in the name of Christ, I would entreat you to stop this work. Give men a chance to exercise their individual judgment.

Men who follow the leading of another, and are willing that another should think for them, are unfit to be entrusted with responsibility. Our leading men are remiss in this matter. God has not given to special ones all the brain power there is in the world. Men in responsible positions should credit others with some sense, with some ability of judgment and foresight and look upon them as capable of doing the work committed to their hands. ChL p 35-37

Here are some specific kinds of ministerial needs:

There is a blessing in the association of the old and the young. The young may bring sunshine into the hearts and lives of the aged. Those whose hold on life is weakening need the benefit of contact with the hopefulness and buoyancy of youth. And the young may be helped by the wisdom and experience of the old. Above all, they need to learn the lesson of unselfish ministry. The presence of one in need of sympathy and forbearance and self-sacrificing love would be to many a household a priceless blessing. It would sweeten and refine the home life and call forth in old and young those Christlike graces that would make them beautiful with a divine beauty and rich in heaven’s imperishable treasure.WM 238.1

A definition of ministry:

The gospel ministry is an organization for the proclamation of the truth to the sick and to the well. It combines the medical missionary work and the ministry of the Word. By these combined agencies opportunities are given to communicate light and to present the gospel to all classes and all grades of society. God wants the ministers and the church members to take a decided, active interest in the medical missionary work.

To take people right where they are, whatever their position or condition, and help them in every way possible—this is gospel ministry. Those who are diseased in body are nearly always diseased in mind, and when the soul is sick the body also is affected.—Testimonies for the Church 6:300, 301. WM 121.1,2

A thought on the scripture injunction to go out into the highways and hedges:

Why has it not been understood from the Word of God that the work being done in medical missionary lines is a fulfillment of the scripture, “Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. And the Lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be full.” WM 122.4

About working for the salvation of souls:

Unless there are those who will devise means of turning to account the time, strength, and brains of the church members, there will be a great work left undone that ought to be done. Haphazard work will not answer. We want men in the church who have ability to develop in the line of organizing and giving practical work to young men and women in the line of relieving the wants of humanity, and working for the salvation of the souls of men, women, youth, and children.—Letter 12, 1892. WM 105.3

About training:

Every church should be a training school for Christian workers. Its members should be taught how to give Bible readings, how to conduct and teach Sabbath school classes, how best to help the poor and to care for the sick, how to work for the unconverted. There should be schools of health, cooking schools, and classes in various lines of Christian help work. There should not only be teaching, but actual work under experienced instructors. Let the teachers lead the way in working among the people, and others, uniting with them, will learn from their example. One example is worth more than many precepts.—The Ministry of Healing, 149. WM 106.4

[whatisthis]

Another thing to remember, is that God doesn't have to have humans ordain a work to call us to do it.

Human hands may never have been laid on you in ordination, but God can give you fitness for His service. He can work through you to the saving of souls. If, having learned in the school of Christ, you are meek and lowly in heart, He will give you words to speak for Him.... MYP 226.2

That makes whether ordination is accepted or not a much less pressing issue! Unless it is needed in order to further God's work, seems like it isn't needed, is what I guess I'm saying.

(Meant to send this to a friend and somehow posted publicly. The friend would have understood that I am not saying ordination isn't needed for anyone.)

[debbym]

my brother who is an sda minister said something about it had to do with your title on your tax return,.

[Tom Wetmore]

Some very good guidance in those quotes, whatisthis. The ones specifically about ordination are consistent with what many have been saying that too much importance is put on the designation. Where EGW is speaking of the NT Church, it is clear that it was simply a way to recognize one designated or appointed to a task or responsibility. But one thing really stuck me about the act of laying hands on the one being ordained. That was that it was simply invoking God's blessing on that person and what they were to do.

Sadly, I see in the resistance to ordain women as pastors simply an unwillingness to ask for God's blessing on them and what they are doing as pastors. The refusal to ordain them is saying that we will not acknowledge or recognize that they are or can be blessed by God to do pastoral ministry. As the last point you posted suggests, the act of ordaining them is not essential to them to do what God called them to do or to gain God's blessing on them and their work. That will, and does happen regardless of what we do or don't do. And after all these years of having women as pastors here and as has been witnessed in places like China, God does in fact bless the work of women pastors. But our continued refusal to recognize them and ask God to bless them and what they do puts us in opposition to what God has called and blessed and potentially places us in the posture of working against God.

[debbym]

Quote:

Sadly, I see in the resistance to ordain women as pastors simply an unwillingness to ask for God's blessing on them and what they are doing as pastors. The refusal to ordain them is saying that we will not acknowledge or recognize that they are or can be blessed by God to do pastoral ministry.

I believe it is far more difficult then merely an issue of refusing to agree and support where God is blessing.

If you have, in your family and community, culturally trained and reinforced in the view that women have a position and need to stay in that position, then you may be unable to accept women in positions of spiritual leadership.

If you have never experienced other cultures and learned that there are differences in gender roles in different parts of the world that are accepted by God, it is a challenging matter.

If you have never challenged some of your assumptions about people and life and found things different then you had thought, it can become very unsettling to be asked to do this.

if your biases and belief system are reinforced whenever you read the bible, and you fear this change is sin, apostasy, or even worse perversion it really compounds the difficulty accepting a change.

if you believe this is a sign of the end of the world, and you must keep yourself unspotted from the world, you really have to stand your ground.

It is not a simple matter. I hope it is not something like this that hinders us from really fully co-operating with the Holy Spirit so Jesus can return. Now that would be really sad.

i remember reading that the leaders would not accept the righteousness by faith message and it left us in this world for a long time.

i would be happy to have a fresh thread on that topic.

[Tom Wetmore]

Agreeing with what you have said for the most part, but would change one word in the sentence "It is not a simple matter." It is simple. The answer, the cure, the solution, is simple. But change of hearts and minds is difficult. All much easier said than done...