Here We Stand

[Gus Foster]

This is a new book about Adventism that every Adventist must have. Its 800 plus pages deal with every situation in our church today. The cost is $15 and can be purchased from:

Adventist Affirm

P O Box 36

Berrien Springs, Michigan

49103

www.AdventistAffirm.org

[Guest]

Ok..let's go buy it and start a study group to go chapter by chapter through it....in the CA study group forum.

[Amelia]

Jimbob, its not a book that can be studied. Its seems to be some kind of newsletter or magazine.

My questions are, why should we sign up for this? Who are the "thought leaders" who are a part of this project?

Personally I would like to preview an article or two before I buy into this.

[Bravus]

Intially I wasn't too positive about the book: from reading the website, they seem to set it up as 'the New vs the True' - i.e. if it's one it's probably not the other. I think that's a mistake: a thing is not bad *because* it's new, it's good or bad in its own right, and that needs to be tested against Scripture.

But reading a bit more closely, it seems as though that's the aim of this book (Amelia, there's a group that puts out a newsletter, but they've now put out a book as well): to evaluate a bunch of new things in the church in the light of scripture. So I think it's an interesting approach: it would still worry me a bit if the outcome of their investigation of every one of the new things they look at was that the new is wrong and the old is right, but that remains to be seen.

After all, if new == wrong, where would our church have ever got started?

[Gus Foster]

Adventist Affirm puts out a quarterly magazine, written and published by teachers and pastors in Berrien Springs. This is an 810 page book written 34 such individuals, including some of our very best scholars.

When John penned Revelation after his visions with Jesus, he rememebered most of Scripture to illustrate his meanings. In chapter 21, when describing the New Jerusalem, the holy city, he remembered his friend Peter's comments about the condition of the saints character, and fashioned the sancturary as a compilation of God's people. 1 Peter 2:5ff describes these people as 'living stones' which make up the building; who 'abstain from sinful desires which war against the soul'! Although John describes the character and condition of God's 'glorified' people, both Peter and John in their epistles describe the same characteristics in God's sanctified people before translation.

I just returned from a long trip throughout the midwest, and was stunned at the condition of some of the SDA churches; many with fewer than 20 members (some less than 10); many with severe conflicts over music, worship practices, theatrics, puppets, dress, diets, Sabbath observance, and some issues that never entered my mind.

Here We Stand addresses all these and much more:

Richard O'Ffill on the retention of youths through entertainment and secular movements;

Brue Price on church growth and methodism---whole churches leaving for Sunday keeping;

Israel Ramos on challenging youth to be Josephs and Daniels;

C D Brooks--a classic--"I Want My Chruch Back";

There arc chapters on music and forms, on marriage, divorce, homosexuality, and polgamy.

There is so much more, but I simply sketched--Samuel Pipim concluds with --'where do we stand'----------again, we all should read this book--I love it.

[Amelia]

Thank you Gus. That was a better outline than what I was getting from their website. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Gus this old guard in Adventism has betrayed their trust, [ their 40 year track record proves this, you saw this firsthand in the church you recenty visited] it would be best if they at the present time just stop trying to teach other and try and save themselves. After they get a present truth message, then it would be proper for them to start teaching again. But this teaching from one mans mind has got to stop someday in God's professed church, doesn't it? What Adventism teach on Revelation messages is many/many bricks SHORT of a full load. Entire bible chapters there that truly apply to the FUTURE, this old guard has delagated to the PAST!!

[darlene]

We get their quarterly magazine at our office. It has some very well known scholars contributing to it. Some articles are very good and some not so interesting. The book probably has both the good and the not so good. It is probably worth the read.

[Amelia]

Can this book be purchased through the ABC?

[wicklunds]

If anyone needs a copy, I have an extra I am just dying to get rid of. This is the book that will set us straight on new theology issues if we are open to the truth. The new thrust of our church to push a certain agenda trickling down from our colleges needs a counter punch right in the nose so many individuals are not lead back into Babylon.

Dennis

[Bravus]

G'day Dennis

Welcome back, man, haven't seen you for a while. Hope all is well with you.

[Gus Foster]

This is a response to some 'worship qustions'--some are saying they can worship in their church according to Psalm 150---interesting.

For some time many have told me that they thought our worship services were dull, unimaginative and boring. I would like to share some thoughts written by C. Raymond Holmes on Adventist Worship, chapter 34, pages 472-475, in the new book, "Here We Stand", in which I am in complete agreement:

'Holiness is God's essence, His basic nature. The holiness of god has both positive and negative implications. Because God is morally pure in Himself, He is intolerant of human sin. His whole nature burns with wrath toward sin, consuming it. (Hebrews 12:28, 29) Because holiness is His basic nature, He cannot act in any other way toward sin. There is a separation of being between Himself and fallen humanity. --- On the positive side, because He is morally pure in Himself, God's holiness is revealed as love. His holiness requires that He act in love toward His creatures, because holiness is His basic nature. He cannot act in any other way toward the sinner. Even His wrath and judgment are loving manifestations of His holiness. ---

(In regards to Isa 6) If the fire that comes in Adventist Christian worship does not come from God's altar, it is strange fire that does not cleanse. --- Those who have been cleansed by the burning coal from Calvary's altar are never the same. They have a new Master and a new cause. If we are to become fit for His kingdom and His service, we too must have such an encounter with the holy God. Like Cain (Gen 4), some people worship by giving only what they possess; but some, like Isaiah, give themselves. --- When His people, who have been redeemed from sin by His grace in Christ, recognize the truth of His holiness, they will respond by giving glory to Him (see John 17). ---

'Holy, holy, holy,' is a totally religious emphasis and awareness. There is no confusion here of the divine with the human, no attempt to find the sacred in the secular, for they are incompatible. In worship, sinful human beings come into the presence of the Almighty God, Who is seated on a throne, the symbol of His power to rule and judge. --- How does one become holy? By worshipping The Holy--not by ceremonies or forms, not by entertainment or excitement. ---there is a relationship that exists between human indifference to principals of righteousness, genuine revival and the holiness of God's character. --- Neglect of God's law results in declining piety, lack of the Holy Spirit, and fruitless revivals. (Mathew 7:16) Does ceremony and ritual make holy people? Does 'celebration'? Does clapping and swaying and shouting? Anything done in worship that does not lead to a consciousness of God's holiness and a conviction of human sin is sensual indulgence, a vehicle for meeting the humanistic ends of manipulation or entertainment. ---

the effect of the worship service should be to heighten our perception of Jesus' Day of Atonement ministry for us, and the importance of our accepting His commission to proclaim the three angels' messages to a world now under judgment. If not Seventh-day Adventists, whom will God send to tell the world to worship God as the Creator on the memorial day of His Creation? How will the world learn that the Sabbath is a sign of God's abundant provision for our redemption and sanctification (Eze 20:12)-the holiness we need to meet a holy God? Who will tell them that the hour of His judgment has come, and how they may prepare to meet Him with joy?---

It is the appropriate response (Rev 14:7)"

I find these to be incredible statements, and also I find an observation: those who believe in the old Adventist sancturary doctrine cling to the idea that worship is humbly kneeling in front of God in His throneroom, and those that have deferred accept other forms of worship. Interesting!

[Clio]

Quote:

---

Gus Foster said:

Does ceremony and ritual make holy people? Does 'celebration'? Does clapping and swaying and shouting? Anything done in worship that does not lead to a consciousness of God's holiness and a conviction of human sin is sensual indulgence, a vehicle for meeting the humanistic ends of manipulation or entertainment. --- the effect of the worship service should be to heighten our perception of Jesus' Day of Atonement ministry for us, and the importance of our accepting His commission to proclaim the three angels' messages to a world now under judgment.

If not Seventh-day Adventists, whom will God send to tell the world to worship God as the Creator on the memorial day of His Creation? How will the world learn that the Sabbath is a sign of God's abundant provision for our redemption and sanctification (Eze 20:12)-the holiness we need to meet a holy God? Who will tell them that the hour of His judgment has come, and how they may prepare to meet Him with joy?--- It is the appropriate response (Rev 14:7)"

I find these to be incredible statements, and also I find an observation: those who believe in the old Adventist sancturary doctrine cling to the idea that worship is humbly kneeling in front of God in His throneroom, and those that have deferred accept other forms of worship. Interesting!

---

Like you Gus, I find these to be incredible statements. I find that I begin to worship Him with Joy, and soon it is soooo overwhelming, that tears are running down my face, and I can sing no longer. Only weep in joy that He would choose to fill me with His presence.

I'm grateful He doesn't rain His presence down on me more often than He does... these frail bodies are not capable of such intensities of emotion without undue stress. How I look forward to being able to Worship in the Courts of Praise, throw my crown at His feet, and learn to sing and dance in a way pleasing to Him.

I don't think it really matters whether we bow humbly before the throne, or stand and sing, clap, or sway in His presence. I think it is MORE important that we come INTO His presence and rejoice in the joy of the Lord which is our strength.

True Jesus and Abba Father created us each to be unique. They created us to grow into being Their friends, not just Their created beings. We are created in Their image. We are LIKE them. Not just physically, but emotionally, with the capacity to know and express all the positives of emotion and voluntarily to give and receive love. We are created with a capacity to appreciate diversity and revel in the glory of a cacophany of color, race, ideas, and creation. We were given the capacity to share in the joy of creation with our Creator.

And even when sin entered the equation, the capacity to experience the joy of creation was not taken from us. Instead, it was through this wonderful, shared experience Abba Father chose to send His only Begotten Son, to redeem us.

What a reason to worship in spirit and in Truth! The how of it is not important. The heart of it truly is. And worship from a heart after Abba Father's own heart can't ever go wrong.

Clio

[Bravus]

In response to Gus and what he quoted, not Clio:

*cough*culture-bound*cough*

That is to say, defining 'reverence' purely and solely as 'what connotes reverence in certain Western cultures in certain time periods' is saying that God erred in creating a panoply of human cultures and of responses to Him. Will our celebration in Heaven be limited to kneeling in silence? In other words, will God force everyone into a Western mold in heaven? God forbid!

[Clio]

Erhm.... Yes well... I was wondering how "culture-bound" tied in to my thought...

Heaven... How in Heaven will I find the time to participate in all the ways to Worship Him? I want to sing in the choir, learn to dance so I can be part of the Throne Room Dancers , play the harp , the pipes, and the drums, and the flute... oh I want to play a wooden flute ...not the kind you hold horizontally, more of a First Nation style or Celtic style flute...I want to have a spot near the door of the Courts of Praise so I can cast my crown at His feet whenever He comes in.

I hope our mansion is near the Courts of Praise, but on the same street as my covenant sister's whom He has sealed to me three ways, Blood covenant, salt covenant, and water covenant. But if I have to choose, put me near the Courts of Praise... I'm going to be spending a lot of time there. And my husband likes to sing too. So we will be very happy near the Courts of Praise.

Clio

[Ron Lambert]

The name of the organization is Adventists Affirm.

I guess they knew a lot of people were going to leave out the "s" so they set up both these website addresses; spelled either way, they take you to the same web page:

http://www.adventistAffirm.org

http://www.adventistsAffirm.org

But when you go to the website, the name at the top is "Adventists Affirm."

[Bravus]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

How in Heaven will I find the time to participate in all the ways to Worship Him?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Heh, agreed! But the cool bit with Heaven - indeed, besides God's presence, the thing that largely *makes* it Heaven - is that time is no longer a problem! "When we've been there 10,000 years... We've no less days to sing His praise, than when we first begun"! Hallelujah!

[Clio]

Oh I so agree with you Bravus. When time starts up again, and we're no longer caught in this aberration, to have sufficient time to do all these things... what an awesome concept.

But you see... my favorite part is there will be no day or night... the world will be lit by the light of Abba Father.

But there are so many OTHER things I want to do. But I want to praise True Jesus and Abba more than anything else. Here are some of the things on my to-do list:

1. plant my garden around my townhouse in the Holy City. My husband and I plan to do this together. We are going to plant all shades of purples, blues, and white flowers, and we're going to have some sort of living water feature in a deeply shaded glade....

2. Visit with Mart'a and Scottie O'Kilarnie. They adopted me into their clan with Abba Father, True Jesus and the Holy Spirit as Witness. And True Jesus sealed it with His Blood. I can't wait to find out why it was so important that this happened.

3. Go with my angel on the one and only true Alien Tour. I want to see all the other worlds Abba Father and True Jesus created.

4. I have a standing date with the Keeper of the Books to browse the Library. It's just down from the Courts of Praise. I can definitely see myself buried off in the stacks at a table with 100 scrolls on it, even spilling down, with rays of light shining in.

5. Oh.. to stand before the Great White Throne... and worship Abba. Gotta do that too. I do believe that is different from the Courts of Praise.

6. There are some people from the Bible and from History I do very much want to meet, and get to know. I should like very much to invite Peter's wife to visit with Mart'a and I. I have a feeling, from the descriptions of Peter and his characteristics in the Bible, that the three of us would find much to laugh about... I do think our men-folk would have much in common... so would we three.

7. My family. Both my parents await True Jesus' return in their graves. As do all my grandparents. Oh time... to bask in their presence... I can't wait for time to start up again.

8. We haven't even touched on the building and landscaping of my country home when Jesus remakes the world.... Oh my... I can see it already. I do know there will be a huge tree, shading a wonderful vale, where my covenant sisters and I can gather, to worship, study, and fellowship.

9. Angels! I need to talk to Helper, Watcher, and some others. But they tell me the angelic focus is going to be much different than the focus of the redeemed and not to be disappointed if our long discussions have to wait until the 3rd, 4th or even 5th thousand years. After all, we are going to be the Bride at the wedding feast... and then we will be busy looking at records, and affirming Abba's judgements.

10. Animals.... I can't function without my animals now. I will have to find time to visit them too.

This is my top 10 list of things to do when time starts again.

Sorry... favorite subject....

---->climbing down off my soapbox now.

Clio

[Gus Foster]

A letter I sent some time ago in answer a request:

Hi Bonnie--It is amazing what has happening to our church in the last 50 years. I believe it all started when other denominations started investigating and questioning Adventist doctrine, and when we started to dress some of the up (change them) to win their approval. Although the sanctuary doctrine had been tested and rejected by some prior to that time, it still remained the foundation for Adventism. Then the events of 1979/80 shook the very foundations, and today there is only a small percentage of Adventists, preachers and layman alike, that cling to the historical doctrines and beliefs.

The basic principals of judgment, accountability, righteousness, and self-control, (the key is total separation from the world thinking and total separation unto Christ, thinking induced by the influence of the Holy Spirit) have been replaced by a sense of 'spirituality' which is a head-knowledge of religion, and one that really unites all religion into one 'good thing'.

As a result, you can see authors other than Adventist come to the forefront of our consciousness. Phillip Yancey, Max Lacado, John MacArthur and others are in the forefront of our book stores, our churches, and in the homes. One seldom hears quotes from Ellen White read in any of our churches.

Thus, our life-styles are the same as the world's, those who do not even profess Christ. Divorce rates are the same, sexually immorality are the same, if not more, TV habits, eating habits, dressing habits, language, leisure time, are all the same as the world. It is difficult to find any difference. The church has gone 'into' the world. There are a few exceptions, and they are the 'remnant'. And the 'remnant' are struggling to hang on--Christ said---will there be any faith when I return?--good question; where are they?

I'm not pointing fingers, for I am no better than any of these. The 'remnant' have a tendency to become harsh, unloving, and failing to project the love and character of our Lord and Savior. It is a very difficult time. And it is obvious that increase crisis and individual battles are going to get worse until the 'cloud forms'. We have failed to allow the Spirit to cleanse us, to purify us, to purge us because we are so entrenched in worldly desires and things. We have denied the power of the Spirit to make us righteous. Our vision of heaven has dimmed, has even been removed, thus we have lost heavenly peace. We have forgotten that we live for the next life, and share Christ with every breathe.

Peace comes with dependence on divine power. When we resolve to act in accordance with present light, our vision increases and we are given more light and strength. And many with light have lost their boldness, the incentive to tread where 'angels fear'. As we watch the closing and final stages on the earth, let us renew our resolve to be humble, prayerful and upright citizens of heaven.

[lazarus]

I'm interested to know if this book talks much about evangelism or reaching the lost in our communities.

I used to read alot of stuff about what we should believe, what we used to believe, what we shouldn't believe. I used to spend alot of time mourning the sad state of Adventism.

My attention is has turned from defending orthodoxy to promoting Jesus. That sounds rather trite. What I mean is promoting the things he spoke about and the way he lived his life.

The church is not 28 fundamental doctrines, a lifestyle, a culture it is a dynamic ever changing reflection of Jesus. Jesus manifests himself in many different ways, styles and venues.

Many of the things the traditionalists prescribe are not widely commented on in scripute!

Yes I talk about the Sabbath, 2nd coming, judgement. I also talk about the poor, the homeless, the family, reaching lost people. I have not read the book but I weary of Adventist publications that simply seek to DEFEND or even affirm. It all seems very reactive, rather than proactive.