Moderators Gerr Posted July 18, 2005 Moderators Posted July 18, 2005 Quote: ROBERT said: Quote: What you are trying to make Jesus say is the very opposite of what He teaches!!! You are saying that inorder to become His disciple, He teaches that we have to give up all our possessions, when in fact He is saying that when we put Him first in our lives, ahead of everything else, all the things that the Gentiles worry about, i.e. food, shelter, clothing, will be supplied by God!!! Context: Matt 6:25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? [nothing about your nice house, Gerry] 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? 28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things [food & clothing] will be given to you as well. And Paul says, "but if we have food and clothing, with these we shall be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and hurtful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction." Gerry, apparently (being a Doctor) you are not very content....You covet your goodies....Techinically that is sin when compared with Christ life of selflessness....So maybe "grace" doesn't look to bad right this moment, huh? [:"blue"]First you were twisting what Jesus said and claim He wants you to give up ALL your possessions in order to become His disciple. Now you are saying you can have food & clothing only! When you give Jesus first place in your life, and that is what He is talking about in Mt 6 & Lk 14, when He said "and all these things will be yours as well", it goes beyond just food & clothing, my friend. The God who has emptied the treasure house of heaven in giving us His Son, how will He then withhold the lesser gifts from His children? It is written: [:"red"]"He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also FREELY GIVE US ALL THINGS?" Rom 8:32 NKJ. "Let them shout for joy and be glad, Who favor my righteous cause; And Let them say continually, 'Let the LORD be magnified, WHO HAS PLEASURE IN THE PROSPERITY OF hIS SERVANT.' Ps 35:27 NKJ. "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has loeft house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's, who shall not receive a hundrefold NOW IN THIS TIME - houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions - AND in the age to come, eternal life." Mk 10:29,30 NKJ. [/] Again, what Jesus is telling us is that it is a matter of priority. Put Him FIRST, seek the Pearl of Great Price FIRST, seek His kingdom FIRST, and His righteousness FIRST, accept God's greatest Gift FIRST, and the lesser gifts will follow as well according to your ability to handle. And how can I covet the goodies I already own? [/] Gerry Quote
Robert Posted July 19, 2005 Author Posted July 19, 2005 Gerry...you keep the rules you like and disregard the rest. Bottom line the law requires you to be perfect, just as God is perfect! [see Matt 5:48] You remind me of one of those prosperity preachers...the more I give the more I receive! That makes my motivation for giving, selfish....Really it makes the "preacher" rich. Quote: how can I covet the goodies I already own? Would you be willing to let them go? If not, well, you "covet" them. Here, let's test you: Luke 6:27 “But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you! How? verse 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. By the way, calling the police would be demanding your goodies back! I bet you'd call the cops....Jesus didn't covet anything...hence He had no place to lay His head. He gave to the point of homelessness. My Bible says that He fulfilled the law! Apparently you covet YOUR goodies....Again; grace sounds good, huh? verse 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, [how?] do good to them, [how?] [:"red"]and lend to them without expecting to get anything back.[/] Gerry...if I did the above it wouldn't be long until I was in the poor house....You just can't get around this fact. In heaven their will be no "self" - hence it want be a problem to live for others, but here in Lucifer's territory if you don't live partially for yourself you will be without. The reason you have is because you worked hard for your goodies....You were thinking of yourself. According to the spirit of the law that is "self-seeking". Sorry to bust your bubble, Rob Quote
Robert Posted July 19, 2005 Author Posted July 19, 2005 Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman [the church established by Christ], and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring [the remnant], on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. Keeping the commandments is not keeping the letter, it is much, much more....It is reflecting its spirit! The "established" church at the time of Christ illustrated what law-keeping is really about...although the believers weren't thinking of keeping rules rather it was the natural outcome of preaching the genuine gospel. The message was backed by the power of the Spirit as proof that the real gospel was being presented. When "the church" fully restores the gospel then you will see the power of God reflected in the Adventist's church, but as of now the church is Laodicea. It is still preaching a perverted gospel and the product of this gospel is in many ways self-righteous. In other words God can't really work in someone who is depending on that work to save them....They have perverted the gospel! The call to come out of Babylon must first go to the church of Laodicea - "The SDA Church." Those who refuse the message of the truth as it is "in Christ" will be shaken out....They will be joined with their idolatrous gospel of works. Those who accept the real gospel will mature to the point that the early church did as found in Acts 2:44,45/ 4:32-34. This is unselfish agape love...the genuine fruit of "the church" restoring the gospel. Get busy, Rob Quote
bevin Posted July 20, 2005 Posted July 20, 2005 Hmmm - obviously my analysis of OT tithing texts shocked people into silence about them... /Bevin Quote
LifeHiscost Posted July 20, 2005 Posted July 20, 2005 Quote: bevin said: Hmmm - obviously my analysis of OT tithing texts shocked people into silence about them... /Bevin Two points, not to persuade but as personal testimony to the grace of Jesus. First: God's commands only are demands to those who respond best to demands. For those who love to do what pleases Him, His commands are instructions to be followed with high expectations, knowing the King never requests anything from His children without blessings beyond compare. Second: I was a Christian without official recognition as such, long before joining any organized body of believers, and without higher educational critics telling me how stupid it was to take God literally for what He asked of His children. The principle of tithing was accepted without any earthly formal education of a religious nature, other than personal reading of the Holy Bible. During the approximately four decades of receiving gifts at His hand, the peace of mind that has come from knowing He would take personal charge of my finances if I wanted Him to, has produced peace far beyond monetary plans exercised by individuals with far greater financial expertise than myself. [:"red"] "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." [/] Prov 3:5 KJV Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted July 20, 2005 Posted July 20, 2005 Quote: ROBERT said: Get busy, Rob Typical message of a person telling others what they "must do" in order to receive salvation. [:"red"] "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: " [/] 2 Thess 1:7,8 Quote Lift Jesus up!!
bevin Posted July 20, 2005 Posted July 20, 2005 Quote: First: ...the King never requests anything from His children without blessings beyond compare. Quote: During the approximately four decades of receiving gifts at His hand, the peace of mind that has come from knowing He would take personal charge of my finances if I wanted Him to, has produced peace far beyond monetary plans exercised by individuals with far greater financial expertise than myself I agree with both of these. There is a clear scriptural and experiential support for the concepts of God taking care of His children and supporting the spread of the gospel with our time and money. What there is NO clear scriptural support for is the idea that believers should pay 10% to an organisation. When one becomes an SDA, one accepts that organisation's interpretation of the obligation (regardless of whether the Bible teaches it or not). They won't disfellowship you for not paying - but at some congregations failure to pay will bar you from some of the positions. The only thing I object to in all this is the claim that the practise is supported by OT or NT rules. It is not, and the SDA who originally adopted the practise did so for pragmatic reasons, not theology. Back then - late 1800's - you were an SDA because you were strongly committed to spreading the gospel, and the 10% rule was an attempt to let everyone know what a reasonable fair share of that cost would be, so that it became a burden shared - and a blessing shared. /Bevin Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted July 20, 2005 Moderators Posted July 20, 2005 Quote: ROBERT said: Gerry...you keep the rules you like and disregard the rest. Bottom line the law requires you to be perfect, just as God is perfect! [see Matt 5:48] [:"blue"]Let us examine your interpretation of Mt 5:48. Is Jesus asking his disciples to be as omnipotent as God? Omnipresent as God? Omniscient as God? Holy to the nth degree as God? In other words, be another God? Isn't that what you are saying it says? NO WAY!!! The Greek word for "perfect" is "Teleios", which has these range of meanings: "1. brought to its end, finished, 2. wanting nothing necessary to completeness, 3. perfect. 4. that which is perfect. 4A. consummate human integrity and virtue, 4B. of men 4B1. full grown, adult, of full age, mature." Strong's Lexicon. The creature can NEVER become exactly like the Creator!!! So how can sinful human beings meet the requirement of Mt 5:48? [:"red"]"For in Him dwells are the fulness of the Godhead bodily; and YOU ARE COMPLETE [Gk. pleroo-filled to the top, filled to the brim, so that NOTHING shall be wanting to full measure, Strong's Lexicon] IN HIM, who is the head of all principality and power." Col 1:9,10 NKJ. [/] Receive Christ and you receive perfection, fullness. And as a believer, what He is saying to me is to stop being childish and be a mature, full grown Christian, not blown to and fro by every wind of doctrine. [/] Quote: You remind me of one of those prosperity preachers...the more I give the more I receive! That makes my motivation for giving, selfish....Really it makes the "preacher" rich. [:"blue"] The God I see in the Bible is not a God of poverty. His promise is: [:"red"]"But seek FIRST the kingdom of God and HIS righteousness, and ALL THESE THINGS shall be added to you." Mt 6:33. "Beloved, I pray that you may PROSPER IN ALL THINGS, and be in health, just as your soul PROSPERS." 3 Jn 2 NKJ. "Let them shout for joy and be glad, who favor my righteous cause; and let them say continually, 'Let the LORD be magnified, who has pleasure in the PROSPERITY of His servant.'" Ps 35:27 NKJ [/] [/] Quote: Quote: how can I covet the goodies I already own? Would you be willing to let them go? If not, well, you "covet" them. Here, let's test you: [:"blue"]If my salvation depended on it, why not? What is a car, a house, a TV, compared to my eternal destiny? Is the giving up of one's car, house, TV, or whatever one's possession is, is that what saves? Is becoming poor in this world's goods what saves? [/] Quote: Luke 6:27 “But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you! How? verse 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. [:"blue"]Oh, you don't see the difference either between one who asks and the one who steals? I suggest you put on a pair of magnifying glasses, perhaps you will see better. [/] Quote: By the way, calling the police would be demanding your goodies back! I bet you'd call the cops....Jesus didn't covet anything...hence He had no place to lay His head. He gave to the point of homelessness. My Bible says that He fulfilled the law! Apparently you covet YOUR goodies....Again; grace sounds good, huh? [:"blue"]Uh uh, here comes the gospel of homelessness again. [/] Quote: verse 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, [how?] do good to them, [how?] [:"red"]and lend to them without expecting to get anything back.[/] [:"blue"]So what are you saying? If you who wants to withhold the 10% that which belongs to God, (and by the way, you are using diversion tactics away from your original thread), how then can you give to human beings? [/] Quote: Gerry...if I did the above it wouldn't be long until I was in the poor house....You just can't get around this fact. [:"blue"]Here is a fact I see in nature, Rob. I have a few grow boxes in my backyard. I have found that when I plant tomatoes or any plant and I don't give it enough water, fertilizer, don't give it my time to weed it, that I don't get much from them. But the more I give them the things they need, I don't become poor!!! I get an abundance of harvest!!! Hoarding does not lead to prosperity, it leads to death! That's why the Dead Sea is dead, it doesn't share what it receives. The tree that does not give only "encumbers the ground" and needs to be chopped down. It is a law of nature that if we sow sparingly, we shall reap sparingly. It is NOT the one who withholds the tithe or anything else that becomes poor. God says, [:"red"] "You are cursed with a curse, for you have robbed Me....And TRY Me now in this....If I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you such blessing that there will not be room enough to receive it." Mal 3:10 NKJ. [/] Try it, Rob! [/] Quote: In heaven their will be no "self" - hence it want be a problem to live for others, but here in Lucifer's territory if you don't live partially for yourself you will be without. The reason you have is because you worked hard for your goodies....You were thinking of yourself. According to the spirit of the law that is "self-seeking". Sorry to bust your bubble, Rob [:"blue"]Like I said, Rob, try it. The gospel of God is NOT a gospel of poverty. It is a gospel of putting God first and He will take care of your needs and in many ways even provide some luxuries you never expect. See Clio's testimony in another thread.[/] Gerry Quote
Robert Posted July 21, 2005 Author Posted July 21, 2005 Quote: LifeHiscost said: Quote: ROBERT said: Get busy, Rob Typical message of a person telling others what they "must do" in order to receive salvation. Wrong...get busy preaching the gospel was my point. Quote
Robert Posted July 21, 2005 Author Posted July 21, 2005 Quote: The gospel of God is NOT a gospel of poverty. It is a gospel of putting God first and He will take care of your needs and in many ways even provide some luxuries you never expect. You are missing the point, again! If you live a life of selflessness like Christ then you will be without....Why? Because this world is under Satan's rule...it is under his principle of self-seeking. Luke 4:5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 So if you worship me, it will all be yours.” 8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’” The Bible also tells us that, "all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." In Heb chapter 11 I read: They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. These were people of faith, Gerry....Where's that prosperity you say God promises? The fact is if we lived like Christ we too would be without....Just proves we are not truly obeying the law. Again, grace sure sounds good, huh??? Quote
Robert Posted July 21, 2005 Author Posted July 21, 2005 Quote: God says, "You are cursed with a curse , for you have robbed Me....And TRY Me now in this....If I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you such blessing that there will not be room enough to receive it." Mal 3:10 NKJ. Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The just by faith shall live.” 12 However, the Law is not of faith..... Gerry...Mal 3:10 is an "old covenant" statement! As EGW says, "The terms of the Old covenant were" obey and live...disobey and die! Go scare someone else, Rob Quote
Robert Posted July 21, 2005 Author Posted July 21, 2005 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Let us examine your interpretation of Mt 5:48. Context...context, Gerry...context! Quote: "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:19 NKJV....Why would Jesus offer the hope of being greatest in the kingdom of heaven for those that 'do' the commandments if He knew all the time they were not 'do-able? Let me remind you what Christ said: "Whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave...." Matthew 20:26,27 Now let's look at Matthew 5:19 IN ITS CONTEXT! According to Matt 4:25, "great multitudes followed Him from Galilee and Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and from beyond the Jordan. 5:1 And when He saw the multitudes, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him. 2 And opening His mouth He began to teach them, saying.... Whom is Jesus teaching here? Some say just the disciples, but if you go to where Christ finishes His discourse, you will find it was also the great multitudes. Let's go there: Matt 7:28 The result was that when Jesus had finished these words, the multitudes were amazed at His teaching; 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law. [Please note the tension between Christ's words and the "teachers of the law."] The multitudes were typically Jewish and as a Jew in the days of Christ you were taught that only those who obey the law went to heaven. So the mentality of the "great multitudes" (including the disciples at that time) was that heaven is only attainable by the keeping of the law! Was Jesus teaching the same as "the teachers of the law"? No and I'll prove it: For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. [Matt 5:20] Did you catch that? Jesus is basically saying, "Remember what the teachers of the law taught you? Well I am telling you that your law keeping must surpass theirs!" Now Christ begins to compare the letter of the law to what the spirit of the law requires: Letter: “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ [verse 21] Spirit: “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court." [verse 22] Letter: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; [verse 27] Spirit: but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. [verse 28] Jesus continues to do this right up to verse 48 where He sums it all up: [:"red"]“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”[:"black"] Did you get that – how perfect are you to be? What does the context say? “You are to be perfect”…how perfect? As you heavenly Father is perfect!!! Why was Jesus teaching practically the same thing as that of the teachers of the law? The Jews were already bogged down under the law….It was a yoke of bondage to them. Now Jesus comes along and makes matter even worse by adding the spiritual requirements of the law. What is Jesus doing? Answer: The same thing He did at mount Sinai! The question is why did Christ give the law to a bunch of sinners when He knew that they couldn’t keep it? The problem is they didn’t know they couldn’t keep it! If you come to Jesus and ask Him what good thing must you do to gain heaven, He will tell you to keep the commandments! Why? To break you of your pride – your ego….He does it to humble you so that you will concluded (as did Paul), [:"red"]"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."[:"black"] [Romans 3:28] For further proof of my conclusions study the following: Matthew 19:16-26 Luke 10:25-29 Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted July 21, 2005 Moderators Posted July 21, 2005 Christ came to bring GOOD NEWS. Is YOUR gospel of homelessness GOOD news? If GRACE came through Jesus Christ, is requiring every follower to become homeless GRACE? Requiring every believer to give up everything & have no pillow to lay one's head is giving someone UNDERSERVED FAVOR? Some grace/favor you are preaching! If that's the undeserved favor your friend Jesus gives you, who needs enemies? Go preach your good news and see how many will receive it as good news. Gerry Quote
Moderators Bravus Posted July 21, 2005 Moderators Posted July 21, 2005 I see the Rob and Gerry show is back in business. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Quote Truth is important
Moderators Gerr Posted July 21, 2005 Moderators Posted July 21, 2005 Quote: "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:19 NKJV....Why would Jesus offer the hope of being greatest in the kingdom of heaven for those that 'do' the commandments if He knew all the time they were not 'do-able? [:"blue"]Oh, shall we go on round 10 on this subject all over again? Aren't you getting away from your thread that you can't find a command in the NT to pay tithe? So let me ask you again, when you keep or take something that is not yours, what do you call it? Here is a command if you are listening. [:"red"] "Let him who stole steal no longer...." Eph 4:28 NKJ. God's commandments not doable? What kind of a God is it who gives a command that is not doable and yet punishes with death anyone who violates a commandment that is not doable? What kind of a god are you presenting, Rob? Of course, flesh & blood cannot keep God's commandments because the carnal nature is at war against God's law. That is why one must be born again! That is why you & I need to be transformed, get a NEW nature, born of the divine seed. When this happens and the Holy Spirit is living within, then the commandments of God become doable. [:"red"]"We know we love God's children if we love God and obey His commandments. Loving God means keeping His commandments, and really, that isn't difficult." 1 Jn 5:2,3 NLT "For I can do everything with the help of Christ who gives me the strength I need." Phil 4:13 NLT[/] Rob, it's high time you stop preaching the bad news of helplessness, of not being able to do, and start preaching the good news of victory! Our God IS ABLE!!! High time to stop preaching the bad news of homelessness and start preaching the riches of God!!! [/] [/] Quote: For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. [Matt 5:20] Did you catch that? Jesus is basically saying, "Remember what the teachers of the law taught you? Well I am telling you that your law keeping must surpass theirs!" Now Christ begins to compare the letter of the law to what the spirit of the law requires: Letter: “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ [verse 21] Spirit: “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court." [verse 22] Letter: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; [verse 27] Spirit: but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. [verse 28] Jesus continues to do this right up to verse 48 where He sums it all up: [:"red"] “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”[:"black"] Did you get that – how perfect are you to be? What does the context say? “You are to be perfect”…how perfect? As you heavenly Father is perfect!!! [:"blue"] "And you are complete in Him," Col 2:10 NKJ. If you have Jesus dwelling within, you have righteousness that exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees. If you have Jesus & His Spirit dwelling within, you have OMNIPOTENT power to tap into for obedience! [/] Quote: Why was Jesus teaching practically the same thing as that of the teachers of the law? The Jews were already bogged down under the law….It was a yoke of bondage to them. [:"blue"] Oh, what a god you have, Robert, that gives a law that is a "yoke of bondage"? If the "yoke of bondage" refers to the law as God gave it, why then would James call it the "law of liberty?" Why then would the psalmist say, "And I will walk at liberty, for I seek you precepts?" Ps 119:45 NKJ. [/] Quote: Now Jesus comes along and makes matter even worse by adding the spiritual requirements of the law. What is Jesus doing? Answer: The same thing He did at mount Sinai! The question is why did Christ give the law to a bunch of sinners when He knew that they couldn’t keep it? The problem is they didn’t know they couldn’t keep it! If you come to Jesus and ask Him what good thing must you do to gain heaven, He will tell you to keep the commandments! Why? To break you of your pride – your ego….He does it to humble you so that you will concluded (as did Paul), [:"red"]"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."[:"black"] [Romans 3:28] For further proof of my conclusions study the following: Matthew 19:16-26 Luke 10:25-29 [:"blue"]"NO ONE who LIVE IN HIM keeps on sinning. NO ONE who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." 1 Jn 3:5,6 NIV. There is the promise. If you KNOW HIM, if you ABIDE IN HIM, you break that cycle of sin & death. [/] Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted July 21, 2005 Moderators Posted July 21, 2005 Quote: Bravus said: I see the Rob and Gerry show is back in business. [:"blue"]That's because almost everything Robert teaches grates my theological nerves. And keeps repeating the same nonesense! [/] Nope, I don't want to go on round 11. So I've made my last post on this thread unless he goes back to the original. Gerry Quote
LifeHiscost Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 Quote: ROBERT said: If you live a life of selflessness like Christ then you will be without.... [:"red"] "And He said, There was a certain man who had two sons; And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the part of the property that falls [to me]. And he divided the estate between them. And not many days after that, the younger son gathered up all that he had and journeyed into a distant country, and there he wasted his fortune in reckless and loose [from restraint] living. And when he had spent all he had, a mighty famine came upon that country, and he began to fall behind and be in want. And the son said to him, Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son [i no longer deserve to be recognized as a son of yours]! But the father said to his bond servants, Bring quickly the best robe (the festive robe of honor) and put it on him; and give him a ring for his hand and sandals for his feet. But when this son of yours arrived, who has devoured your estate with immoral women, you have killed for him that [wheat-] fattened calf! And the father said to him, Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. " [/] bold mine LHC Luke 15:11-14,21,22,30,31 AMP Quote: The fact is if we lived like Christ we too would be without.... [:"red"] "Then Peter said to him, "We've given up everything to follow you. What will we get out of it?" And Jesus replied, "I assure you that when I, the Son of Man, sit upon my glorious throne in the Kingdom, you who have been my followers will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has given up houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or property, for my sake, will receive a hundred times as much in return and will have eternal life. But many who seem to be important now will be the least important then, and those who are considered least here will be the greatest then." [/] Matt 19:27-30 NLT Notice it doesn't specify when the hundred times would be received. [:"red"] "And beware lest you say in your [mind and] heart, My power and the might of my hand have gotten me this wealth. But you shall [earnestly] remember the Lord your God, for it is He Who gives you power to get wealth, that He may establish His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day." [/] Deut 8:17,18 AMP [:"red"] " Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God. " [/] Eccl 5:19 KJV Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Robert Posted July 21, 2005 Author Posted July 21, 2005 Quote: LifeHiscost said: Quote: The fact is if we lived like Christ we too would be without.... [:"red"] "Then Peter said to him, "We've given up everything to follow you. What will we get out of it?" And Jesus replied, "I assure you that when I, the Son of Man, sit upon my glorious throne in the Kingdom, you who have been my followers will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has given up houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or property, for my sake, will receive a hundred times as much in return and will have eternal life. But many who seem to be important now will be the least important then, and those who are considered least here will be the greatest then." [/] Matt 19:27-30 NLT But that's in heaven! BTW did you notice Peter's selfish question, i.e., "What will we get out of it?" In heaven we live for others only...we will have all things in common, just like the church in Acts. Here on earth we are under another principle and another god (Satan). Hence a Christian is in enemy territory. Quote
LifeHiscost Posted July 22, 2005 Posted July 22, 2005 Quote: ROBERT said: Here on earth we are under another principle and another god (Satan). Hence a Christian is in enemy territory. In enemy territory by usurpation, but not under his rule unless we don't claim the promises of the Word. [:"red"] "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." [/] Matthew 19:26 KJV And would Jesus ask something of us He wouldn't make provision to accomplish? [:"red"] "And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come." [/] Luke 19:13 KJV [:"red"] "Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers." [/] 1 John 1:2 NASB It is true this promise came through a servant of God for the benefit especially of Gaius. And if one believes that promises are restricted to context, only Gaius, out of all the billions of human beings, has right to receive that promise. So what's the use of writing the promise down? Merely so the rest of us can see how narrow our Father is in His willingness to share with the rest of His children on this earth? One will receive what one expects from his Father in Heaven. All the more reason to accept His promises of grace. [:"red"] "But he who had received the one talent went and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money He who had received one talent also came forward, saying, Master, I knew you to be a harsh and hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you had not winnowed [the grain]. So I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is your own. But his master answered him, You wicked and lazy and idle servant! Did you indeed know that I reap where I have not sowed and gather [grain] where I have not winnowed? Then you should have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent away from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will be furnished richly so that he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have will be taken away. And throw the good-for-nothing servant into the outer darkness; there will be weeping and grinding of teeth." [/] Matt 25:18,23-30 AMP Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted July 22, 2005 Posted July 22, 2005 And Jesus answering said unto them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's," And they marvelled at Him. What things are God's when it comes to money? Also Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek. Who told him to do that and why did He do it? He did it before the law was given and he is the father of those who believe, meaning we will be just like like in repsonse to the Gospel. I have to go to work so I can't finish my post but I will try and get online later tonight or tomorrow. God bless Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522
Robert Posted July 22, 2005 Author Posted July 22, 2005 Quote: Norman said: And Jesus answering said unto them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's," And they marvelled at Him. What things are God's when it comes to money? Okay...good one. I'll now look at the context: Matt 22:15 Then the Pharisees went and counseled together how they might trap Him in what He said. 16 And they *sent their disciples to Him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any. 17 “Tell us therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?” 18 But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, “Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites? 19 “Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax.” And they brought Him a denarius. 20 And He *said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” 21 They *said to Him, “Caesar’s.” Then He *said to them, “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s.” 22 And hearing this, they marveled, and leaving Him, they went away. Right...according to the "Torah" - the Pentateuch...I should pay tithe. In like manner, a man ask Christ: Luke 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law [Torah] stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How does it read?” 27 He answered: ”‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” 28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” What's your take on this? Rob Quote
Robert Posted July 22, 2005 Author Posted July 22, 2005 Quote: “Do this and you [:"red"]shall live[/].” Rom 10:5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law [:"red"]shall live[/] by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks thus, ....9 if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved." Do you see my point? Quote
Robert Posted July 23, 2005 Author Posted July 23, 2005 Quote: Also Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek. Who told him to do that and why did He do it? He did it before the law was given I just read what Pastor Sequeira says on the subject of tithe in his exposition of Hebrews chapter 7. Here it is: Lets now go back to Hebrews chapter seven. “For this Melchisedec, king of Salem...,” By the way Salem later became Jerusalem and the word “Salem” means peace. In Hebrew you have the word Shalom and in Arabic Saalam. That’s a common greeting in the Middle East today. So we are told two things about Melchisedec. The city he represents is the city of peace and that’s the New Jerusalem. The name of the King Melchisedec means “King of Righteousness.” That’s found in Heb.7:2. So Melchisedec represents the King of Righteousness since that’s the meaning of his name and he represents the King of Peace because that’s the city over which he rules. These are the two things. We are told in verse one that Abraham met him after he came back from that tremendous victory. After he ate the bread and wine what did Abraham give to Melchisedec? He gave him a tenth part of all as told in verse four. Why did Abraham give him a tenth part? Tithe paying is simply an indication. To pay tithe means that God owns everything, not just one tenth. The one tenth is a symbol. In other words, when Abraham paid tithe to Melchisedec who was the priest of the Most High God, he was saying, “The One you represent, the One most high, has the right of ownership over everything that I have.” Please remember that without God, Abraham could never have won the victory. The odds were against him. He could never have made it. The king of Sodom was much stronger than Abraham’s army, and yet he was defeated. So Abraham is saying, “What you return to me is not mine. Everything I own is yours. Even my life is yours. I’m giving you a tenth as a symbol of my confession that everything I own is yours, including my life.” Okay...I need to think on this...I need to make God an offer (if you will). Can I say "uncle"? You can close this thread I've been whipped... Rob Quote
LifeHiscost Posted July 24, 2005 Posted July 24, 2005 Quote: ROBERT said: Can I say "uncle"? You can close this thread I've been whipped... Rob For the Christian, expounding on the Word is never meant to whip a person into submission. The underlying principle of the tithe is found in these three verses. [:"red"] "Speak to the Israelites, that they take for Me an offering. From every man who gives it willingly and ungrudgingly with his heart you shall take My offering. Exodus 25:2 AMP [/] [:"red"] "If any of you is deficient in wisdom, let him ask of [Literal translation.] the giving God [Who gives] to everyone liberally and ungrudgingly, without reproaching or faultfinding, and it will be given him. [/] James 1:5 AMP [:"red"] "Practice hospitality to one another (those of the household of faith). [be hospitable, be a lover of strangers, with brotherly affection for the unknown guests, the foreigners, the poor, and all others who come your way who are of Christ's body.] And [in each instance] do it ungrudgingly (cordially and graciously, without complaining but as representing Him). " [/] 1 Pet 4:9 AMP all parenthesis and brackets theirs LHC [:"red"] ".... Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." [/] Romans 14:5 KJV Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
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