Ellen White and Islam.

[Sojourner]

Hello again,

On the Adventist radio station I was listening to a preacher from New South Wales in Australia speaking and he got on to talking about Ellen White, I am not sure if I heard him correctly or got what he was saying, but what I understood him to say was that he really did not think a great deal of the Roman Catholic Church and talked about their involvement in the end times and I guess what you would call the Armageddon. He indicated that Ellen White had several things to say about the RC church in her writings.

My question is what did Ellen White say in terms of the rise of Islam in the modern world as it is today? Is it not fair to say that Islam is growing much faster than the Catholic Church and are a lot more hostile to different Christians than Catholics are? Is it fair to say that a lot of the actual violence and killings of Adventist Christians in different countries happens from islamic militias and so on?

My understanding is that there is some pretty bitter hatred from various Islamic Countries towards Israel and they use the United Nations to express that hostility in terms of resolutions and so on, on a regular basis with the eventual goal of causing the United Nations to call their Security Council to send troops in to achieve what they want for the Palestinians. I cant how the Roman Catholic church fits into this as they seem to say very little on this subject and seem more plagued with people leaving and allegations of abuse and so on.

Does Ellen White address this in any of the books they sell in the SDA bookstore?

[BobRyan]

Islam is a serious issue and Ellen White - along with SDAs point to events related to Islam in Revelation 6. God loves the muslims just like He loves all mankind. "God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten son".

You are right that the Catholic church officiated during the 1260 years of the dark ages. The Bible speaks to this in Daniel 7 in Revelation 11, in Rev 12 in Rev 13. The Lateran IV council of the RCC called for "extermination" of Jews and heretics from the Holy Roman empire. Pretty hard to ignore mistakes like that - especially when those mistakes are claimed to be "infallible still" to this very day because it was a command made in Canon law - by an ecumenical Catholic council.

A Syrian Christian recently told me that in Syria the Islamic government has shut down a large SDA church in Damascus totally wiping out the SDA group in that city. But they did it on behalf of a request by the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic groups who slandered the SDAs by claiming that the group is a spy for Israel - since SDAs keep the Sabbath of the Bible. Privately the Muslim government officials stated that they approve of the SDA form of Christianity that does not eat pork, or drink wine or worship idols - but that they had to shut the church down to court the favor of the larger Christian groups in that area.

Apparently in Syria the muslim factions are far more opposed to each other - than they are to the 10% Christian population that is among them and not considered to be a threat to them at all.

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

Bear in mind, Ellen White and the pioneers never used the term "Islam". More typically it was words like "Caliphate". The Caliphate was like the HQ for Islam/Muslim people. There hasn't been a central place, a Caliphate, for many decades now. That will change in time. A Caliphate will be re-installed, somewhere, the Muslim world united under it.

In her day another typical term was "The Eastern Question". That was common then but fell out of use somewhere in the early 1900's. The eastern question concerned itself with the Caliphate, the Muslims, Turky in particular. Turkey, at one time, WAS the Caliphate!

A more detailed analysis of this discussion is best placed in one of the theology sections. A LOT of focus is on Israel and the Muslim question these days. Adventist have a LOT of insight to the questions.

[LoneRanger]

The Lateran IV council of the RCC called for "extermination" of Jews and heretics from the Holy Roman empire. Pretty hard to ignore mistakes like that - especially when those mistakes are claimed to be "infallible still" to this very day because it was a command made in Canon law - by an ecumenical Catholic council.

[Textus Receptus]

It is my opinion that to take our focus of the Roman Church and gaze elsewhere we are setting ourselves up for deception and subsequetnly failure. Lucifer has many tactics at his disposal to have God's people take the focus off the written word of God is one of them. Frankly, who cares why Islam has risen to prominance when we take into account the grand scheme of things.

Their are many theories out that attempt to explain this phenomenon. Some of which suggests that it was the Roman Church who created Islam by indoctrinating Mohamed in order to create a force to oppose the Jews which subsequently became uncontrollable. it was a fire that spread to quickly with no means of putting it out. Others state that the true force of the Islamic powers are controlled by the Jesuits through the use of Freemasonry and Secret socities. It is no secret however that Freemasonry is encrusted with Islamic symbolism and even go as far as stating that Allah is God.

The theory posists that those at the top of Islam know that the Roman Chuch is nothing more than the Baal worship and therfore are in communion with them visvis Freemasonry. Nevertheless, if we adhere to what is written in scripture, we understand that the Roman Church is the driving force for Lucifer. It is this system which will control the world. Nonetheless, most of Protestansism for the most part are keeping their attention to the Islamic world and use creative theology to place Islam into prophesy as they do the Jews. The Jesuits have done a tremendous job swaying the minds of protestants by means of promoting a futurist theology which places the Antichrist in the future rather than focusing on the Roman Church.

The point is, we don't know why or what role Islam will have but we have a sure word in Prophesy that the Roman church is to benefit as time comes to an end. If we attempt to surmise that Islam may infact be a force at the end, then what we are really stating is that scripture may be wrong. Scripture clearly states that the world shall wonder after the beast (singular not plural).

[ClubV12]

I believe Islam will be a major player in economic collapse, famine, societal disruption and other catastrophic outcomes. The Christian world will react in a manner the Muslims are familiar with, "jihad". At that point the stage is set for a much more powerful foe to come into play. A united world power that will seek to Govern and police the world, to rid it of extremists and radicals. It will be seen as a "God send", a needful thing, even a "blessing".

Watch for the "way marks" along this path. Those who understand prophecy will catch the steady train of events as they progress.

[Bravus]

Short answer: Ellen White failed to prophesy the rise of Islam.

Mind you, I have many good Muslim friends and do not see Islam as the bogey many seem to.

The Catholic church is a spent global force - Ellen White missed that one too.

Keep crying wolf, guys. We know how that ends up... but in this case the comeuppance will be something you never even dreamed of...

[BobRyan]

Short answer: Ellen White failed to prophesy the rise of Islam.

As it turns out - Islam did not arise after the time of Ellen White - it was there long before. Very little left for her to "predict" (as if she was in charge of what God told her).

You would probably say the same thing about John in his book of Revelation "as if" prophets are in charge of what subjects God can mention to them.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

The Catholic church is a spent global force - Ellen White missed that one too.

Keep crying wolf, guys. We know how that ends up... but in this case the comeuppance will be something you never even dreamed of...

It takes a certain lack of awareness to ignore 1.2 Billion Catholics as if they are not a force to be considered in the world today.

Christianity is at about 1.8 Billion. Islam at a little over 1 Billion - and over 1 Billion Catholics in that 1.8 Billion number for Christianity.

Counting them out now - seems a bit premature when one considers that at the start of the 1800's the entire planet only had 1 billion people on it.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Bear in mind, Ellen White and the pioneers never used the term "Islam". More typically it was words like "Caliphate". The Caliphate was like the HQ for Islam/Muslim people. There hasn't been a central place, a Caliphate, for many decades now. That will change in time. A Caliphate will be re-installed, somewhere, the Muslim world united under it.

In her day another typical term was "The Eastern Question".

And "The Ottoman empire" was another way they referred to it.

in Christ,

Bob

[joeb]

Short answer: Ellen White failed to prophesy the rise of Islam.

Mind you, I have many good Muslim friends and do not see Islam as the bogey many seem to.

The Catholic church is a spent global force - Ellen White missed that one too.

Keep crying wolf, guys. We know how that ends up... but in this case the comeuppance will be something you never even dreamed of...

The Catholic church a spent force? Really? That must be why the resigning of one pope and the election of another didn't make any major news stories. Absolutely nobody was interested in a spent force.

[Bravus]

'Spent global force' was my wording, carefully chosen. To think that the Catholic church (or powers backed by it) will rule the world is ... well, I can't use any of the appropriate words. 'Not in good touch with reality' is as nicely as I can put it. With 1.3-1.5 billion Chinese, largely atheist, and a billion Indians, mostly Hindu but also Sikh and Buddhist and Muslim and Christian and atheist... the notion that a subset of Christianity will rule the world makes no sense. That's even without Islam and with the fact that America as an evangelical superpower largely fears and distrusts Catholicism.

Let it go, boys - it's a 19th century shibboleth and we're in the 21st century.

[ClubV12]

Bravus, you remind me of what the scientific minds of Noahs time would have said. "Impossible,,, never rained, can't possibly rain, scientific fact."

Of course, they were right. From a science view, of course, you are right.

I am also reminded, "The fool has said in his heart, there is no God."

...carry on

[Bravus]

Interesting: people keep quoting that last at me when I disagree with them. It's ironic, because I believe in God. I never said, in my heart or in the forums, 'there is no God'. Not sure where it's coming from.

What I said was that Ellen White, to the extent that she prophesies an important global role for Roman Catholicism, has so far been wrong.

Who knows - current trends might turn around: I've been wrong before, and will be again. But the kind of paranoia in relation to Catholicism displayed earlier in this thread is simply disconnected from current reality.

I also said that the rise of Islam as a global power - to the extent that it is, and I think that's very questionable given its huge internal rifts - was something Ellen White never predicted. I'd have thought that was uncontroversial.

[Gail]

Quote:

It's ironic, because I believe in God. I never said, in my heart or in the forums, 'there is no God'.

I'm glad, because then you are not a fool (Ps. 14:1)

Yeah, Bravus!

[debbym]

I am not looking for the catholic church to rule the world for evil.

i thought it was the image of the beast that was formed that does all the coercion for evil.

[Ted Oplinger]

Interesting: people keep quoting that last at me when I disagree with them. It's ironic, because I believe in God. I never said, in my heart or in the forums, 'there is no God'. Not sure where it's coming from.

What I said was that Ellen White, to the extent that she prophesies an important global role for Roman Catholicism, has so far been wrong.

Who knows - current trends might turn around: I've been wrong before, and will be again. But the kind of paranoia in relation to Catholicism displayed earlier in this thread is simply disconnected from current reality.

I also said that the rise of Islam as a global power - to the extent that it is, and I think that's very questionable given its huge internal rifts - was something Ellen White never predicted. I'd have thought that was uncontroversial.

That all may be true for the moment, Bravus. Things do not appear to be shaping up that way. Of, course, they were saying the very same things about the Otoman empire in July, 1840, as well. One month later, "the Eastern Question" was effectively neutered, becoming a protectorate of Russia, Prussia, France, and Britain. Josiah Litch was right.

I do, though, remember in January, 1989, people would have said the very same thing to someone predicting by years' end, East and West Germany would be (for all intents and purposes) reunified, or that by the end of 1990, the Berlin Wall would be thrown down - that they were wrong, and would not happen. Soviet Communism was there to stay, and would eventually even replace the Western democracies.

No one predicted that the effect of the unrest seen in eastern Europe would not stop with Soviet-propped governments granting rights to their peoples, but would rise, replace their governments peacefully, and seek to rejoin the world economy after decades of Soviet communism. The Soviet Era...was dead.

Most importantly, though, the Gospel was then able to enter unhindered by the State a previously closed land, and set the stage for the last days work there.

I am reminded that the areas of the world controlled by the Chinese, the Hindu, and the Muslim remain the most closed to the Gospel.

Since Christ said the Gospel will go to "ALL the world", I do think that there will be a catastrophic series of events in each of those areas, which will bring the hostile powers to their knees and will allow the Gospel work to go forward in each area.

The Middle east, South Asia, and East Asia will all travel down the same path as did the Soviet Union - buckling before what most in the world calls unforeseen events/circumstance, with effects far beyond what one would think, and will open the way for the Gospel work to come unhindered to those peoples also.

Revelation says the "whole world" will be enlightened by the glory of God...and the "whole world" will follow the Beast. That isn't the word of man - it is the Word of God.

I can't yet see it, but I do know it will happen...and likely sooner than later.

Call it what you may; I will call it faith backed with a strong dose of rationale.

Blessings,

[ClubV12]

Debbym, you make a very important point about the "daughters of the beast" if you would. To some degree Bravus is correct in that we are SO focused on the Roman power we loose site of what Ted is talking about. Major civil unrest and catastrophic world conditions coming into play well before the rise of the last power on earth, Rome. We keep skipping to the last chapter, it's a good book, worthy of reading every chapter carefully before we get to the end.

My apologies Bravus, you must be tired of hearing that verse by now! :)

[Bravus]

Thank ya sir, we're good. :D

[Kevin H]

There are a lot of good points here that I do not believe are mutually exclusive.

I do believe that the beast in Revelation 13 is any organized group that replaces Christ in our life. I believe that the 7 mountains are the 7 sacred mountains and that we need to study out the ancient concept of the sacred mountain rather than simply say they are the 7 hills of Rome and that we focus too much on the Whole beast being the Papacy and expect the Papacy to resume the central position it held during the 5th head. I understand that the 7 heads are the 7 great empires that rule "in place of" or in Greek "Anti" Christ. They are 1.Babylon,2. Medio-Persia, 3. Greece, 4. Rome 5. The Holy Roman Empire (including Papal Supremacy). 6. The deadly wound, where we have 10 horns and the crowns are on the horns not on the head, and thus the beast is yet is not. A short period of independent countries, with tendencies towards one of the two revolutions: The American revolution with it's emphases on freedom through good laws and the French revolution with it's freedom being absence of laws, yet oppressing people to try to push their freedoms, opposing religion and controlling people's lives.

Then there is #7, the deadly wound healed, another world empire, but yet different from the other empires. It is not an Alexander the Great or a Julius Caesar with their conquering armies, but rather an economic cooperation. Nations giving up their freedoms to join this wonderful system of peace and being able to buy expensive goods freely from around the world. We are currently seeing this form with the world banking systems, the council on foreign relations. (now some tie this to the so called Illuminati, but whether or not they actually exist or not is speculation and there is too much we can worry about that is out in the open than to worry about speculation. Besides these conspiracy theories tend to have both good with some very weird ideas and I think that the ranking them together like this makes people leery of the even the good points... The theories even say that Ellen and James White were a part of the Illuminati, so I am not a big illuminati fan. They may or may not exist. I'm worried about what Revelation predicts and what is open).

The Papacy is the moral voice for this group. He is not central to the 7th head but he is still playing a big role. But since he is not central the prophecies is being fulfilled with us expecting something else.

Tonight I heard on 3ABN an interpretation of the second beast in Revelation calling down fire from heaven that I think is right on. He pointed out that fire represents God's' presence and his power. We are going to see in the Christian world a counterfeit power of God that will encourage them to join with this system. We may fear Islam or the Communists, or the Secular Humanists, but it is going to look like conservative Christianity has finally won. But it is the false prophet calling down the apparent power of God.

The book "The Keys of this Blood" talks about 3 powers. the Russians, which were the heirs of the French Revolution. The Papacy, which was pre-revolution Europe, and Americanism: Now there were two visions of American in the 1800s. One was by men like Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, wanting to see us more agricultural and independent, and the view of the Robber barons seeing us as urbanized factory workers in building their wealth and the "Work hard and you will succeed" righteousness by works. It is this Robber Baron view of America which is in the Keys of this blood. We are finding Jefferson and Madison pretty much ignored as the liberals are trying to implement the French Revolution, and the conservatives are trying to make us the pre-revolution Europe and both groups siding with the Robber Barons.

We may be fearful of Islam and Sharia law, or Communism, or secular humanism. But these are causing Christians to loose their identity of wanting to be fair to the Bible according to their understanding and liberty of conscience, and they are willing to join together in a McGospel against these enemies. But when they finally win, when the fire of God's power falls in the sight of men, they will be joining with the 7th head.

However if Seventh-day Adventists continue to see the whole beast as the papacy end up waiting for a return to the 5th head, things will happen around us that we are going to miss.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

The Lateran IV council of the RCC called for "extermination" of Jews and heretics from the Holy Roman empire. Pretty hard to ignore mistakes like that - especially when those mistakes are claimed to be "infallible still" to this very day because it was a command made in Canon law - by an ecumenical Catholic council.

I'm not sure what your sources are for this statement, since, having read through the Lateran IV canons, I find no mention of any "'extermination' of Jews and heretics from the Holy Roman empire." Perhaps we are unjustifiably vilifying the Catholics. Here is a link to the text of the canons of the Twelfth Ecumenical Council: Lateran IV 1215. You might want to have a look and point out where this "mistake" is "canonized."

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

A Syrian Christian recently told me that in Syria the Islamic government has shut down a large SDA church in Damascus totally wiping out the SDA group in that city. But they did it on behalf of a request by the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic groups who slandered the SDAs by claiming that the group is a spy for Israel - since SDAs keep the Sabbath of the Bible. Privately the Muslim government officials stated that they approve of the SDA form of Christianity that does not eat pork, or drink wine or worship idols - but that they had to shut the church down to "court the favor of the larger Christian groups in that area.

Apparently in Syria the muslim factions are far more opposed to each other - than they are to the 10% Christian population that is among them and not considered to be a threat to them at all.

Perhaps your annonymous Syrian Christian is presenting a slightly biased point of view.

[LoneRanger]

Facts. details. These are the things that provide us motive for drawing conclusions. What are yours?

1. I try to get my facts straight--Jews were not considered heretics. Persecuted, yes. Restricted in civil life, etc., yes. But not heretics.

2. I try to recognize the bias in my sources.

And here's the tough one:

3. I try to have an open mind. Which, being translated, means I try not to read too much (or too little) into a source to make it fit my bias.

[LoneRanger]

You missed a key detail in my post.

I'm in good company. You have so far missed all the key points.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Facts. details. These are the things that provide us motive for drawing conclusions. What are yours?

1. I try to get my facts straight--Jews were not considered heretics. Persecuted, yes. Restricted in civil life, etc., yes. But not heretics.

2. I try to recognize the bias in my sources.

And here's the tough one:

3. I try to have an open mind. Which, being translated, means I try not to read too much (or too little) into a source to make it fit my bias.

1. Think we both agree that Fordham is a Jesuit site and so it has a bias - but still I trust their rendering of the document.

2. "extermination" language in the supposedly still "infallible" decision applied to anyone that the church called a "heretic" and specific mention of using forceful coercion on Jews that had once converted to Christianity and were being accused for some practice that the RCC did not like. (Call it what you will). If you want to fall on your sword over the idea that the RCC did not consider a Jew in that situation to be a heretic - so be it.

3. Actual point of the reference to the document was the issue of extermination of those that the RCC did not approve of.

4. In your reference to the Syrian environment you have not given any source other than your own "feelings". You are welcome to feelings of whatever type you wish. But we do not confuse a report on your personal feelings with an eye witness account of a Christian that actually lived in Syria and experienced the events they speak of first hand.

I think we can all see these points clearly so at least that much is not in debate.

in Christ,

Bob