authority, organization, ordination

[whatisthis]

These are f0urteen pages of thoughts I love on authority, ministry, and ordination. I have started with some verses we all know and love, some given in various translations. I have also been going over EG White quotes to try to get a wide view of what is presented there about authority, ministry, etc. I thought I'd share quotes that touched my heart, and please don't think I'm trying to be an authority on this topic! I'm just trying to study with all of you on God’s glorious plans for our lives!

¬¬Eph 5:8,9 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

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¬¬¬¬Exo 20:3-20 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Eph 4:7-15 But unto each one of us was the grace given according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, And gave gifts unto men. (Now this, He ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ: till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error; but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, Christ;

Eph 4:7 Pero a cada uno de nosotros es dada la gracia conforme a la medida del don de Cristo.

Eph 4:7 unicuique autem nostrum data est gratia secundum mensuram donationis Christi

Eph 3:17-21 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Eph 4:4-7 Un cuerpo, y un Espíritu, como sois también llamados en una misma esperanza de vuestro llamamiento. Un Señor, una fe, un bautismo, un Dios y Padre de todos, el cual es sobre todo, y por todo, y en todos vosotros. Pero a cada uno de nosotros es dada la gracia conforme a la medida del don de Cristo.

Eph 4:4-7 There is but one body and but one Spirit, as also when you were called you had one and the same hope held out to you. There is but one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of all, who rules over all, acts through all, and dwells in all. Yet to each of us individually grace was given, measured out with the munificence of Christ.

Eph 4:4-7 one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Eph 4:4-7 There is one body, and one spirit, euen as yee are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one Faith, one Baptisme, One God and Father of all, who is aboue all, & through all, & in you all. But vnto euery one of vs is giuen grace, according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Eph 4:4-7 몸이 하나이요 성령이 하나이니 이와 같이 너희가 부르심의 한 소망 안에서 부르심을 입었느니라 주도 하나이요 믿음도 하나이요 세례도 하나이요 하나님도 하니이시니 곧 만유의 아버지시라 만유 위에 계시고 만유를 통일하시고 만유 가운데 계시도다 우리 각 사람에게 그리스도의 선물의 분량대로 은혜를 주셨나니

Eph 4:4-7 There is one body and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in you all. But to every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

And how big is that measure?

Eph 3:17-19 that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what the breadth and length and depth and height, and to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge, that you might be filled with all the fullness of God.

Eph 3:17-19 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith, that yee being rooted and grounded in loue, May be able to comprehend with all Saints, what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height: And to know the loue of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that yee might bee filled with all the fulnesse of God.

On the subject of authority:

There must be a Divine and infallible authority in the Church. That authority cannot be the Church herself, for the guide and those whom he guides cannot be the same. The Divine infallible authority which Wicliffe restored for the guidance of men was the Bible - God speaking in His Word. And by setting up this Divine authority he displaced that human and fallible authority which the corruption of the ages had imposed upon the Church. He turned the eyes of men from Popes and Councils to the inspired oracles of God. “The Bible is the foundation deed of the Church, its charter. History of Protestantism Vol 1 p 126 (This is not an EG White quote, it’s a reference commonly referred to by Protestants of her day. She quoted from this source, it was widely read and accepted by Protestants in general.)

Now on the type of ministries needed:

In ancient times, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses with his meekness and wisdom, and Joshua with his varied capabilities, were all enlisted in God’s service. The music of Miriam, the courage and piety of Deborah, the filial affection of Ruth, the obedience and faithfulness of Samuel, the stern fidelity of Elijah, the softening, subduing influence of Elisha—all were needed. So now all upon whom God’s blessing has been bestowed are to respond by actual service; every gift is to be employed for the advancement of His kingdom and the glory of His name. COL 301.1

About the role of the law of God:

The law of duty [to God] is supreme. It claims authority over reason and conscience, over talents and possessions. It will admit no rival, and will not for one moment abate its high demands. It enters into no compromise with any oppressive power of earth. In every act of duty we are hiding self in Jesus. We reach out beyond ourselves, beyond the narrow scope of selfish and present gratification. Obedience to God brings the soul into agreement with the highest laws in the universe. It imparts dignity and true greatness to the humblest occupation where Christ can preside. It crowns the lowliest position in life with the highest honors, bringing men into alliance with God and binding up His interests with plans and purposes that have existence in the infinite mind from eternity. Upward Look 25.3

About artisan-ministries:

Christ, the Lord of the whole earth, was a humble artisan. He was unrecognized, neglected, and despised. But He held His commission and authority from the highest power, the Sovereign of heaven. Angels were His attendants, for Christ was doing His Father’s business just as much when toiling at the bench as a carpenter, as when working miracles for the multitude. But He concealed the secret from the world. He attached no high titles to His name, to make His position understood, but He lived the royal law of God. His work must begin in consecrating the humble trade of the craftsmen who have toiled for their daily bread. Had Christ passed His life among the grand and the rich, the world of toilers would have been deprived of the inspiration which the Lord intended they should have. Upward Look 67.3

More about types of ministries and ministers needed:

The angels of God are ready and waiting to go with humble men who with their Bibles in their hands will go to those who have not had this light, and read to them a “Thus saith the Lord.”

Those who have the gift of song are needed. The melody of praise is the atmosphere of heaven. Often by the words of sacred songs, the springs of penitence and faith have been unsealed. Song is one of the most effective means of impressing spiritual truth upon the heart.

Let little companies of workers go out as the Lord’s missionaries, and do as Christ commissioned the first disciples to do. . . . . Will you heed His voice? Will you become His messengers? Will you seek the sheep that are lost? Will you teach the Word in all humility and earnestness to those who will hear?

Young men and women, take up the work to which God calls you. Tell the wondrous story of the cross. Christ will lead you, and teach you to use your abilities to good purpose. As you receive the quickening influence of the Holy Spirit, and you seek to teach others, your minds will be refreshed, and you will be enabled to present words that are new and strangely beautiful to your hearers. Pray, and sing, and speak the word.... Upward Look 91.2-

About manly dignity:

My brother, do not feel that it is below your dignity to make a decided change. You must place yourself at the feet of Christ as a learner, else you will surely fail of obtaining the overcomer’s reward. Lay off your commanding, kingly authority, and become one of God’s little children. Until you are willing to study and obey God’s will, you will be overcome by temptations and led to do strange things, which will disqualify you for filling a position of influence. Upward Look 119.4

More about the positions of original reformers:

Like after-reformers, Wycliffe did not, at the opening of his work, foresee whither it would lead him. He did not set himself deliberately in opposition to Rome. But devotion to truth could not but bring him in conflict with falsehood. The more clearly he discerned the errors of the papacy, the more earnestly he presented the teaching of the Bible. He saw that Rome had forsaken the Word of God for human tradition; he fearlessly accused the priesthood of having banished the Scriptures, and demanded that the Bible be restored to the people, and that its authority be again established in the church. He was an able and earnest teacher, and an eloquent preacher, and his daily life was a demonstration of the truths he preached. His knowledge of the Scriptures, the force of his reasoning, the purity of his life, and his unbending courage and integrity, won for him general esteem and confidence. GC88 80

About the law of God in relation to respect to parents, both male and female:

In many heathen nations . . . the mother was treated with little respect, and, upon the death of her husband, was required to submit to the authority of her eldest son. Filial obedience was enjoined by Moses; but as the Israelites departed from the Lord, the fifth commandment, with others, came to be disregarded. EP 235.2

About authority in the home:

—It is no evidence of manliness in the husband for him to dwell constantly upon his position as head of the family. It does not increase respect for him to hear him quoting Scripture to sustain his claims to authority. It will not make him more manly to require his wife, the mother of his children, to act upon his plans as if they were infallible. The Lord has constituted the husband the head of the wife to be her protector; he is the house-band of the family, binding the members together, even as Christ is the head of the church and the Saviour of the mystical body. Let every husband who claims to love God carefully study the requirements of God in his position. Christ’s authority is exercised in wisdom, in all kindness and gentleness; so let the husband exercise his power and imitate the great Head of the church.13 AH 215.1

Another one about the way the reformers were freed from tradition:

Wycliffe accepted the Holy Scriptures with implicit faith as the inspired revelation of God’s will, a sufficient rule of faith and practice. He had been educated to regard the Church of Rome as the divine, infallible authority, and to accept with unquestioning reverence the established teachings and customs of a thousand years; but he turned away from all these to listen to God’s holy word. This was the authority which he urged the people to acknowledge. Instead of the church speaking through the pope, he declared the only true authority to be the voice of God speaking through His word. And he taught not only that the Bible is a perfect revelation of God’s will, but that the Holy Spirit is its only interpreter, and that every man is, by the study of its teachings, to learn his duty for himself. Thus he turned the minds of men from the pope and the Church of Rome to the word of God. GC 93.2

Here are some good ideas on how to be one with Christ:

My brethren and sisters, take your stand on an elevated platform, and work to the point to be one with Christ. The heart of the Saviour is set upon his followers’ fulfilling God’s purpose in all its height and depth. They are to be one with him, even though they are scattered the world over. But God can not make them one in Christ unless they are willing to give up their own way for his way.

In view of all that Christ has suffered for us, should we complain when we are called to endure self-denial and suffering? Would not this make God ashamed of us? Let us rejoice that it is our privilege to be partakers of Christ’s suffering; for thus only can we be fitted to be partakers of his glory.

. . .

Brethren and sisters, let us have characters so pure and holy that Christ can with joy present us to the Father. Let us be filled with the living principles of the truth for this time. Let us live lives that will lead sinners to the Saviour. Christ carried his humanity with him into the heavenly courts, and all humanity can claim him as their representative. We may be made complete in him. How?—By becoming partakers of the divine nature. To be partakers of this nature means more than many of us realize. It means giving up one’s own way, and following the path that Christ has marked out. As we become partakers of the divine nature, we escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Review and Herald June1, 1905

About obedience:

The question, “What is truth?” should be asked with decided interest. We must respond to the command of God, and go forward from light to a greater light. There is no such thing as the soldiers of Christ standing still, careless and inactive. There are constant improvements to be made. The providence of God is leading us on step by step in the path of obedience. Let parents and teachers impress upon the minds of the children that the Lord is proving them in this life, to see if they will render obedience to Him with love and reverence. Those who would not be obedient to Christ here would not obey Him in the eternal world. The Lord is seeking to fit them for the heavenly mansion that Jesus has gone to prepare for those who love Him.—Testimonies on Sabbath-School Work, 31, 32. CSW 79.2

About human authority:

Sometimes a man who has been placed in responsibility as a leader, gains the idea that he is in a position of supreme authority, and that all of his brethren, before making advance moves, must first come to him for permission to do that which they feel should be done. Such a man is in a dangerous position. He has lost sight of the work of a true leader among God’s people. Instead of acting as a wise counselor, he assumes the prerogatives of an exacting ruler. God is dishonored by every such display of authority and self-exaltation. No man standing in his own strength is ever to be mind and judgment for another man whom the Lord is using in His work. No one is to lay down man-made rules and regulations to govern arbitrarily his fellow laborers who have a living experience in the truth.—Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, 491. ChL 33.1

About the time and purpose of the first ordination after Christ’s resurrection:

The Christian church was at this time [the time of the first ordination] entering upon an important era. The work of proclaiming the gospel message among the Gentiles was now to be prosecuted with vigor; and as a result, the church was to be strengthened by a great ingathering of souls. The apostles who had been appointed to lead out in this work, would be exposed to suspicion, prejudice, and jealousy. Their teachings concerning the breaking down of “the middle wall of partition” [Ephesians 2:14.] that had so long separated the Jewish and the Gentile world, would naturally subject them to the charge of heresy; and their authority as ministers of the gospel would be questioned by many zealous, believing Jews. GW 441.2

About Paul and Barnabas and why they were the first ordained as ministers after Christ’s resurrection:

Both Paul and Barnabas had already received their commission from God Himself, and the ceremony of the laying on of hands added no new grace or virtual qualification. It was an acknowledged form of designation to an appointed office, and a recognition of one’s authority in that office. By it the seal of the church was set upon the work of God. . . .God foresaw the difficulties that His servants would be called to meet; and in order that their work should be above challenge, He instructed the church by revelation to set them apart publicly to the work of the ministry. Their ordination was a public recognition of their divine appointment to bear to the Gentiles the glad tidings of the gospel. GW 442.1,3

About what ordination means:

To the Jew, this form [ordination] was a significant one. When a Jewish father blessed his children, he laid his hands reverently upon their heads. When an animal was devoted to sacrifice, the hand of the one invested with priestly authority was laid upon the head of the victim. And when the ministers of the church of believers in Antioch laid their hands upon Paul and Barnabas, they by that action asked God to bestow His blessing upon the chosen apostles, in their devotion to the specific work to which they had been appointed. At a later date, the rite of ordination by the laying on of hands was greatly abused; unwarrantable importance was attached to the act, as if a power came at once upon those who received such ordination, which immediately qualified them for any and all ministerial work. But in the setting apart of these two apostles, there is no record indicating that any virtue was imparted by the mere act of laying on of hands. There is only the simple record of their ordination, and of the bearing that it had on their future work. GW 442.2,3

About investing men with authority to judge and rule:

It is dangerous work to invest men with authority to judge and rule their fellow men. Not to you nor to any other man has been given power to control the actions of God’s people, and the effort to do this must be no longer continued.... God has been dishonored by the education that has been given to the churches in Southern California in looking to one man as conscience and judgment for them. God has never authorized any man to exercise a ruling power over his fellow-workers; and those who have allowed a dictatorial spirit to come into their official work need to experience the converting power of God upon their hearts. They have placed man where God should be.—Letter 290, 1907, pp. 2, 3 (August 29, 1907). ChL 33.4

The one who is in trust of sacred responsibilities should ever show forth the meekness and wisdom of Christ; for it is thus that he becomes a representative of Christ’s character and methods. Never should he usurp authority or command or threaten, saying, “Unless you do as I say, you will receive no pay from the conference.” A man who would speak such words is out of his place as president of a conference. He would make men slaves to his judgment.—Letter 416, 1907, pp. 5, 6 (December 30, 1907 to A. G. Daniells and W. C. White). ChL 35.2

How my heart aches to see presidents of conferences taking the burden of selecting those whom they think they can mold to work with them in the field. They take those who will not differ with them, but will act like mere machines. No president has any right to do this. Leave others to plan; and if they fail in some things, do not take it as an evidence that they are unfitted to be thinkers. Our most responsible men had to learn by a long discipline how to use their judgment.—Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, 304. ChL 36.3

I have been shown that there is one practice which those in responsible places should avoid; for it is detrimental to the work of God. Men in position should not lord it over God’s heritage and command everything around them. Too many have marked out a prescribed one which they wish others to follow in the work. Workers have tried to do this with blind faith, without exercising their own judgment upon the matter which they had in hand. If those who were placed as directors were not present, they have followed their implicit directions just the same. But in the name of Christ, I would entreat you to stop this work. Give men a chance to exercise their individual judgment. Men who follow the leading of another, and are willing that another should think for them, are unfit to be entrusted with responsibility. Our leading men are remiss in this matter. God has not given to special ones all the brain power there is in the world. Men in responsible positions should credit others with some sense, with some ability of judgment and foresight and look upon them as capable of doing the work committed to their hands. ChL 37.1,2

There is a blessing in the association of the old and the young. The young may bring sunshine into the hearts and lives of the aged. Those whose hold on life is weakening need the benefit of contact with the hopefulness and buoyancy of youth. And the young may be helped by the wisdom and experience of the old. Above all, they need to learn the lesson of unselfish ministry. The presence of one in need of sympathy and forbearance and self-sacrificing love would be to many a household a priceless blessing. It would sweeten and refine the home life and call forth in old and young those Christlike graces that would make them beautiful with a divine beauty and rich in heaven’s imperishable treasure.WM 238.1

The gospel ministry is an organization for the proclamation of the truth to the sick and to the well. It combines the medical missionary work and the ministry of the Word. By these combined agencies opportunities are given to communicate light and to present the gospel to all classes and all grades of society. God wants the ministers and the church members to take a decided, active interest in the medical missionary work. To take people right where they are, whatever their position or condition, and help them in every way possible—this is gospel ministry. Those who are diseased in body are nearly always diseased in mind, and when the soul is sick the body also is affected.—Testimonies for the Church 6:300, 301. WM 121.1,2

Why has it not been understood from the Word of God that the work being done in medical missionary lines is a fulfillment of the scripture, “Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. And the Lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be full.” WM 122.4

Unless there are those who will devise means of turning to account the time, strength, and brains of the church members, there will be a great work left undone that ought to be done. Haphazard work will not answer. We want men in the church who have ability to develop in the line of organizing and giving practical work to young men and women in the line of relieving the wants of humanity, and working for the salvation of the souls of men, women, youth, and children.—Letter 12, 1892. WM 105.3

Every church should be a training school for Christian workers. Its members should be taught how to give Bible readings, how to conduct and teach Sabbath school classes, how best to help the poor and to care for the sick, how to work for the unconverted. There should be schools of health, cooking schools, and classes in various lines of Christian help work. There should not only be teaching, but actual work under experienced instructors. Let the teachers lead the way in working among the people, and others, uniting with them, will learn from their example. One example is worth more than many precepts.—The Ministry of Healing, 149. WM 106.4

About how to lead:

It is a mistake for a conference to select as president one who considers that his office places unlimited power in his hands. The Lord has instructed me to tell you that you do not know when to use authority, and when to refrain from using it unwisely. You have much to learn before you can do the work of a conference president intelligently. You are to bear in mind that in the cause of God there is a chief Director, whose power and wisdom is above that of human minds. ChL 34.5

God will not vindicate any device whereby man shall in the slightest degree rule or oppress his fellow-men. The only hope for fallen man is to look to Jesus, and receive Him as the only Saviour. As soon as a man begins to make any iron rule for other men, as soon as he begins to harness up and drive men according to his own mind, he dishonors God, and imperils his own soul, and the souls of his brethren. Sinful man can find hope and righteousness only in God; and no human being is righteous any longer than he has faith in God, and maintains a vital connection with Him. A flower of the field must have its roots in the soil; it must have air, dew, showers, and sunshine. It will flourish only as it receives these advantages, and all are from God. So with men. We receive from God that which ministers to the life of the soul. We are warned not to trust in man, not to make flesh our arm.—Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, 366, 367. ChL 34.3

It is natural for man to have a large estimate of self; old habits wrestle for the supremacy; but the man who occupies a position of trust should not glorify himself. The worker who daily subordinates his will to the will of Christ will be educated away from such an idea. He will practice the virtues of Christ’s character in all meekness and lowliness of mind; and this will give to those whom his ministration is supposed to benefit the precious freedom of the liberty of the children of God. They will be free to act out the grace bestowed upon them that all may understand the precious privileges which the saints possess as members of the body of Christ. ChL 35

About lordly authority:

There is need of an education in regard to the rights and duties of men in authority who have lorded it over God’s heritage. When a man is placed in a position of trust, who knows not what kind of spirit he should exercise in dealing with human minds, he needs to learn the very first principles as to his authority over his fellow-men. Right principles must be brought into the heart, and wrought into the warp and woof of character.—Letter 83, 1896 (May 22, 1896 to O. A. Olsen). ChL 32.1

And then there are these quotes:

The same grace that came from Jesus Christ to Paul and Apollos, which caused them to be distinguished for their spiritual excellencies, can be received now, and will bring into working order many devoted missionaries.—;Special Testimonies Relating to Medical Missionary Work, 8. WM 133.3

Workers—gospel medical missionaries—are needed now. You cannot afford to spend years in preparation. Soon doors now open to the truth will be forever closed. Carry the message now. Do not wait, allowing the enemy to take possession of the fields now open before you. Let little companies go forth to do the work to which Christ appointed His disciples. Let them labor as evangelists, scattering our publications, and talking of the truth to those they meet. Let them pray for the sick, ministering to their necessities, not with drugs, but with nature’s remedies, and teaching them how to regain health and avoid disease.—Testimonies for the Church 9:172. WM 133.1

All should be taught how to work. Especially should those who are newly come to the faith be educated to become laborers together with God. If this duty is neglected, the work of the minister is incomplete.

But God does not want His people to hang their weight upon the ministers. As a steward of the grace of God, every church member should feel an individual responsibility to have life and root in himself. All who are ordained unto the life of Christ are ordained to work for the salvation of their fellow men. He who loves God supremely and his neighbor as himself cannot rest content with doing nothing. WM 111.2,3

Service to God includes personal ministry. By personal effort we are to co-operate with Him for the saving of the world. Christ’s commission, “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature,” is spoken to every one of His followers. (Mark 16:15.) All who are ordained unto the life of Christ are ordained to work for the salvation of their fellow men. Their hearts will throb in unison with the heart of Christ. The same longing for souls that He has felt will be manifest in them. Not all can fill the same place in the work, but there is a place and a work for all. COL 301.4

The medical missionary work is not to be carried forward as something apart from the work of the gospel ministry. The Lord’s people are to be one. There is to be no separation in His work. Time and means are being absorbed in a work which is carried forward too earnestly in one direction. The Lord has not appointed this. He sent out his twelve apostles and afterward the seventy to preach the Word to the people, and He gave them power to heal the sick and to cast out devils in his name. The two lines of work must not be separated. Satan will invent every possible scheme to separate those whom God is seeking to make one. We must not be misled by his devices. The medical missionary work is to be connected with the work of the third angel’s message, as the hand is connected with the body; and the education of students in medical missionary lines is not complete unless they are trained to work in connection with the church and the ministry.—Counsels on Health, 557. PaM 108.2

The Lord employs various instrumentalities for the accomplishment of His purpose; and while some with special talents are chosen to devote all their energies to the work of teaching and preaching the gospel, many others, upon whom human hands have never been laid in ordination, are called to act an important part in soulsaving. WM 64

There is a large field open before the self-supporting gospel worker. Many may gain valuable experiences in ministry while toiling a portion of the time at some form of manual labor, and by this method strong workers may be developed for important service in needy fields.—The Acts of the Apostles, 355. WM 64

Dear young friends, remember that it is not necessary to be an ordained minister in order to serve the Lord. There are many ways of working for Christ. Human hands may never have been laid on you in ordination, but God can give you fitness for His service. He can work through you to the saving of souls. If, having learned in the school of Christ, you are meek and lowly in heart, He will give you words to speak for Him.... MYP 226.2

Jesus, when preparing for some great trial or some important work, would resort to the solitude of the mountains and spend the night in prayer to His Father. A night of prayer preceded the ordination of the apostles and the Sermon on the Mount, the transfiguration, the agony of the judgment hall and the cross, and the resurrection glory.

We, too, must have times set apart for meditation and prayer and for receiving spiritual refreshing. We do not value the power and efficacy of prayer as we should. Prayer and faith will do what no power on earth can accomplish. We are seldom, in all respects, placed in the same position twice. We continually have new scenes and new trials to pass through, where past experience cannot be a sufficient guide. We must have the continual light that comes from God. MH 509.1,2

Women can be the instruments of righteousness, rendering holy service. It was Mary that first preached a risen Jesus. In fulfillment of the divine plan, the Son of Man came to seek and save that which was lost.... Those who engage with the Son of God in His work, be they ever so aspiring, can have no greater, no holier work than this. If there were twenty women where now there is one, who would make this holy mission their cherished work, we should see more converts to the truth. The refining, softening influence of Christian women is needed in the great work of preaching the truth. The Lord of the vineyard is saying to many women who are now doing nothing, “Why stand ye here all day idle?” Zealous and continued diligence in our sisters toiling for the spread of the truth would be wholly successful, and would astonish us with its results. Through patience and perseverance, the work must be accomplished.... We are lacking in deeds of sympathy and benevolence, in sacred and social ministering to the needy, the oppressed, and the suffering. Women who can work are needed now, women who are not self-important, but meek and lowly of heart, who will work with the meekness of Christ wherever they can find work to do for the salvation of souls.—The Review and Herald, January 2, 1879. PaM 76.1

In many respects they (women) would do more good than the ministers who neglect to visit the flock of God. Husband and wife may unite in this work, and when it is possible, they should. The way is open for consecrated women.—Manuscript Releases 5:325, 326. PaM 76.2

—The work of God demands most earnest labor, and the Lord would have ministers and their wives closely united in this work. The husband and wife can so blend in labor that the wife shall be the complement of the husband. The Lord desires them unitedly to watch for His voice, to draw closer and still closer unto Him, feeding upon His Word, and receiving light and blessing to impart to others. They should be as free as possible to attend campmeetings and other general gatherings. And the wife may continually be a great help to her husband in visiting and other personal labor.... The wives of many of the Lord’s servants have united heartily with their husbands in the work of saving souls. Through her unselfish interest to advance the cause of God, the wife has made her husband’s work much more complete.—Manuscript Releases 6:43. PaM 76.3

The wife of a minister can do much if she will. If she possesses the spirit of self-sacrifice, and has a love for souls, she can with him do almost an equal amount of good. A sister-laborer in the cause of truth can understand and reach some cases, especially among the sisters, that the minister cannot.—Gospel Workers, 201, 202. PaM 77.2

There are ministers’ wives, Sisters Starr, Haskell, Wilson and Robinson, who have been devoted, earnest, whole-souled workers, giving Bible readings and praying with families, helping along by personal efforts just as successfully as their husbands. These women give their whole time, and are told that they receive nothing for their labors because their husbands receive their wages. I tell them to go forward and all such decisions shall be reversed. The Word says, “The laborer is worthy of his hire.” When any such decision as this is made, I will in the name of the Lord, protest. I will feel it in my duty to create a fund from my tithe money, to pay these women who are accomplishing just as essential work as the ministers are doing, and this tithe I will reserve for work in the same line as that of the ministers, hunting for souls, fishing for souls. I know that the faithful women should be paid wages proportionate to the pay received by ministers. They carry the burden of souls, and should not be treated unjustly. These sisters are giving their time to educating those newly come to the faith, and hire their own work done, and pay those who work for them. All these things must be adjusted and set in order, and justice be done to all. Proof-readers in the office receive their wages, two dollars and a half and three dollars a week. This I have had to pay, and others have to pay. But ministers’ wives, who carry a tremendous responsibility, devoting their entire time, have nothing for their labor.—Manuscript Releases 12:160, 161. PaM 77.4

—Injustice has been done to women who labor just as devotedly as their husbands, and who are recognized by God as being necessary to the work of ministry as their husbands. The method of paying men-laborers and not their wives, is a plan not after the Lord’s order. Injustice is thus done. A mistake made. The Lord does not favor this plan. This arrangement, if carried out in our conferences, is liable to discourage our sisters from qualifying themselves for the work they should engage in.

A mistake is made when the burden of the work is left entirely upon the ministers. This plan was certainly arranged without the mind of God. Some women are now teaching young women to work successfully as visitors and Bible readers. Women who work in the cause of God should be given wages proportionate to the time they give the work. God is a God of justice, and if the ministers receive a salary for their work, their wives, who devote themselves just as interestedly to the work as laborers together with God, should be paid in addition to the wages their husbands receive, notwithstanding that they might not ask. As the devoted minister and his wife engage in the work, they should be paid wages proportionate to the wages of two distinct workers, that they may have means to use as they shall see fit in the cause of God. The Lord has put His Spirit upon them both. If the husband should die, and leave his wife, she is fitted to continue her work in the cause of God, and receive wages for the labor she performs.—Manuscript Releases 5:323, 324 PaM 781,.2

—Seventh-day Adventists are not in any way to belittle woman’s work. If a woman puts her housework in the hands of a faithful, prudent helper, and leaves her children in good care, while she engages in the work, the conference should have wisdom to understand the justice of her receiving wages. Women helped our Saviour by uniting with Him in His work.... If women do the work that is not the most agreeable to many of those who labor in word and doctrine, and if their works testify that they are accomplishing a work that has been manifestly neglected, should not such labor be looked upon as being as rich in results as the work of the ordained ministers? Should it not command the hire of the laborers? Would not such workers be defrauded if they were not paid? This question is not for men to settle. The Lord has settled it. You are to do your duty to the women who labor in the gospel, whose work testifies that they are essential to carry the truth into families. Their work is just the work that must be done. In many respects a woman can impart knowledge to her sisters that a man cannot. The cause would suffer great loss without this kind of labor. Again and again the Lord has shown me that women teachers are just as greatly needed to do the work to which He has appointed them as are men. They should not be compelled by the sentiments and rules of others to depend upon donations for their payment, any more than should the ministers.—Manuscript Releases 5:324, 325. PaM 79.3 PaM 78.3

All who desire an opportunity for true ministry, and who will give themselves unreservedly to God, will find in the canvassing work opportunities to speak upon many things pertaining to the future, immortal life. The experience thus gained will be of the greatest value to those who are fitting themselves for the ministry. It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God. As they cherish the thought that Christ is their Companion, a holy awe, a sacred joy, will be felt by them amid all their trying experiences and all their tests. They will learn how to pray as they work. They will be educated in patience, kindness, affability, and helpfulness. They will practice true Christian courtesy, bearing in mind that Christ, their Companion, cannot approve of harsh, unkind words or feelings. Their words will be purified. The power of speech will be regarded as a precious talent, lent them to do a high and holy work. The human agent will learn how to represent the divine Companion with whom he is associated. To that unseen Holy One he will show respect and reverence because he is wearing His yoke and is learning His pure, holy ways. Those who have faith in this divine Attendant will develop. They will be gifted with power to clothe the message of truth with a sacred beauty.—Testimonies for the Church 6:322 (1900). CM 33.1

“Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands. In some cases they will need to counsel with the church officers or the minister; but if they are devoted women, maintaining a vital connection with God, they will be a power for good in the church. This is another means of strengthening and building up the church.”—The Review and Herald, July 9, 1895. DG 249.2

[Gregory Matthews]

Truthfully, did anyone read all of the above?

Most people do not have the time to do so.

[Tom Wetmore]

TLDR

[olger]

I read 15% of it. I like Wycliffe et al.

[ClubV12]

Scanned it only, caught a bit here and there. Like some of my posts, to long.

It has been my experience that when it comes to authority and submission one to another AND to those appointed over us as leadership, the issues we wrestle with are seldom, yes or no. Black and white. They are gray in matters of conscience. I don't trust mine, I prefer to be guided by principle.

What IF you don't like what the Church Board (Pastor, Head Elder, Conference, G.C.) has done? When does that rise to the level of violating your conscience? Not always easy to discern. Some have left the Church and removed their membership because they felt a decision they couldn't tolerate violated their conscience.

Consciene, gut feeling, jumping to conclusions, imagineing evil of your brother, appearance of evil they can all come in the same package. The evil doer will tailor them just for you, whisper, "You can't violate your conscience, now you must to leave." And you leave with a proud spirit, convinced (in your delusion) you are doing just what God would have you do!

[Gibs]

Ugg um, old indian would say. Heh, heh, me about the same!

Men ordain, but means nothing

Men claim authority in His Church but don't have it

Men organize but are blind

/////////////////////////

Pay attention to only those ordained of God

Only God is the authority in His Church

God is the organizer in His Church, there is Reverance there and order, by Spirit He is Present in it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

The problem with your statement Gibs is your idea of who is and who isn't ordained of God is very different than mine!

I have considerably more trust in a person ordained by the Seventh-day Adventist Church than some guy who makes spurious claims to be ordained of God alone. Individuals making such a claim will be routinely be dismissed as "crack pots" initially.

Time will tell in either case, by their fruits. But that lone person standing in the parking lot making such a claim (to be ordained of God) goes in the same category as one who claims to be a prophet, have visions, dreams, direct revelations, etc.

In that sense, ordination at least gives you a place to start in your evaluation. Ordination says to me, "My brethren have determined that this person has met the standards of what it means to be appointed as an officially recognized leader in the Seventh-day Adventist Church." As such, regardless of their "fruit" or their personal life or their character defaults they are due a certain respect and should in fact be treated in accordance with the duties of their office.

Saul was ordained by God, but he was also ordained by man and thats important because of what it tells the people. This is Gods appointed leader, what is bound on earth is bound in heaven, so show some respect. David recognized this principle, he respected Saul and acknowledged his ordination of God and man even when Saul was in the deepest spiritual darkness.

God even ordained the Babylonians who took Israel captive in the sense that He called them "His servants". But the Babylonians were not ordained by Gods Church of that time, the Jewish Nation.

We need ordination by men, I see no reason to abandon the principle as it serves a purpose. What we DON'T need is a bunch of nay sayers, murmurers and complainers individually going around condeming, disqualifying and disrespecting those who HAVE been ordained of man.

[Gail]

I don't know if I am eye-to-eye with the statements:

Quote:

Men ordain, but means nothing

Men claim authority in His Church but don't have it

Men organize but are blind

All through the Bible God had a high regard and love for His people as a corporate group. The prophets including Moses identified with them EVEN WHEN they were in apostasy. They prayed for the people including themselves with them, asking for forgiveness of their sin as if they were themselves guilty.

God heard their prayers of intercession. That is the beauty of intercession, that the intercessor identifies WITH the ones even in a fallen state. Christ does that for us as sinners- he did it on the cross and He does it before God's throne now, joins Himself up with the ones He's interceding for and presents Himself on our behalf.

When you intercede for others, you are showing a Christ-like character.

[Gail]

Truthfully, did anyone read all of the above?

Most people do not have the time to do so.

Good point!

whatisthis- Just a helpful note- I and many do not read further than 3" worth of post(I think that is how Stan put it once, but I'm in agreeance with this)

Short paragraphs (unless you are quoting) are best for this medium

and no, once I saw the length of the post, I confess that I didn't read it. :(

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

While it is true God ordains men for different purposes and different things to happen to bring about a purpose He has in mind and He has used whoever and whatever suits His purpose.

But when it comes to being ordained to speak forth the true Gospel and teachings of guidance for men, we want to only hear the ones He alone ordains.

This is where this promise comes in, we each must have this guidance!

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Great and wonderful, guides us into all truth, and ah yes, shows us things to come!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gibs says,

"...we want to only hear the ones He alone ordains."

That sounds good, I concur, I only want to hear those ordained of God as well. The trick is who and how will you make that determination. I've seen off shoots who attend my Church get up and walk out right in the middle of a sermon that they felt was teaching error. I listened to the same sermons and got a blessing. I recall one sermon in particular which was a profound blessing!!! And yet, some walked out, this man, they said, was not ordained of God.

Pride rises up, holier than thou takes over, judgment is pronounced and a great show of professed Godliness follows as they walk down the center of the Church "in protest".

These were not sermons preaching anything of even a controversial nature on doctrine or theology. They were perfectly inline with Seventh-day Adventist doctrine and theology. They were a bit deep and at times could be seen as intellectually challenging to follow. GOOD STUFF! I ended up reading all three books of "Mind, Character and Personality" as a follow up to one of those sermons. Which likely went over the heads of some, inspired fanaticism in others and left some sleeping in the pew.

I'd rather be sleeping in the pew than be rude and offensive and filled with pride in my own ability to determine who is appointed by God or not.

[Gibs]

Ordained of God or not is for each of us to decide for ourselves. I don't think any can tell me the fellow is ordained of God and I must hear him.

Well one or the other has it right, but we can not condemn the other as we are not the judge.

I can spell out what I find to be error in the message and you don't have to believe me, nor would I you visa versa.

We must note that the remnant is but a small piece of the first. A very small piece.

It is a shame as not one needs to be lost for the WAY HE has made is easy and the burden light. He walked the path before us and the WAY is broken open.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

For me the issue is how do we respond to someone we THINK is preaching error? If you going to make a scene and disturb the Church you better be real sure the error is significant.

In every case I've seen of someone walking out, it was a judgment call as to whether or not I or they agreed with the view point presented. Walking out was not warranted and rude. Among off shoots it is considered the thing to do, a show of piety, lots of false sympathizers to pat you on the back and offer condolences for the horror the Church put you through. A mark of honor even! Really, no different than what Jesus found in His time, apparently pious folks who were all show and no go and proud of it.

[phkrause]

So Gibs are you ordained of God? And if you are, how do we know for sure? If not why than should we listen to you????? Its pretty simple I think, if you don't agree with the Bible, than yes you are not ordained of God, plain and simple

[Gibs]

PK,

I suppose you would know if I preached the Word or something false if you knew the Word and His Spirit was in you. And for sure I hope it is.

When I preach it will be His Word and very little explanations do I need to give. Mine usually only run 15 to 20 minutes and then questions and discussion.

Sure I would leave it up to you to decide who I am sent of. No man is my guide but His Word and His Spirit as this is the only safe path to walk in.

Here is a verse I dearly love, a wonderful promise,

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Here is another dear to my heart,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

Trouble is, there are many who deems themselves ordained of God, who have no real message from God. They grab their personal perspective, and castigate those who will not agree as not being ordained of God.

These are men and women wielding a sword God never gave them permission to wield. What is worse, that which they wield is unbalanced, bent, dull, and used with a decided lack of skill.

In the last days, EGW states men and women will rise to proclaim present truth, having the unction of God rather than man. Those with the unction of God approach their responsibility in a much different manner than those with their own unction.

The difference is like night and day.

Blessings,

[phkrause]

Trouble is, there are many who deems themselves ordained of God, who have no real message from God. They grab their personal perspective, and castigate those who will not agree as not being ordained of God.

These are men and women wielding a sword God never gave them permission to wield. What is worse, that which they wield is unbalanced, bent, dull, and used with a decided lack of skill.

In the last days, EGW states men and women will rise to proclaim present truth, having the unction of God rather than man. Those with the unction of God approach their responsibility in a much different manner than those with their own unction.

The difference is like night and day.

Blessings,

[Gibs]

For me, I judge no man, I only judge for myself of what he says is truth according to the Word.

And yes I've been in campmeetings and churches where I could not in no way see to stay and I have walked out without disturbing any.

I always stand in the back or sit on the last row or pew unless I know the speaker and what he has been known to preach.

How do we determine who has God's authorization to speak? Would you hear a John the Baptist type in your church building today? Would the hierarchy have such an old grisly speak to the church today?

Tell me, who on earth has the right to tell me whom I must hear and believe?

I'd rather hear a simple down to earth honest humble man not of flowery words any day.

Organization? The Church is God's Building, it is His Saints, He is always working on this Building and so are His Saints that they want to be His Lambs.

He is it's organizer, He is the chief cornerstone.

God is with His Saints, they are never lonesome.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[whatisthis]

There's a lot on the topic of authority, organization, and ordination, isn't there! Sorry for dumping too much all at once.

[ClubV12]

Gibs says,

"Organization? The Church is God's Building, it is His Saints, He is always working on this Building and so are His Saints that they want to be His Lambs."

Here Brother Gibs refers to the invisible Church, the one not comprised of buildings and sanctuaries, but of men and women who truly love God. God also has a visible Church, a brick and mortar building, a sanctuary you can walk into, sit down and fellowship with those who profess to love God. Some of those in the visible Church are also members in the invisible Church. We know not who are members of the invisible Church, no man can possibly know!

We will not know until the Church militant, the visible Church that exists right now, becomes the Church victorious. When the wheat is separated from the tares, the invisible becomes visible. Only then will we be perfectly united, until then, we must occupy, we must wait. NOT before it is revealed. NOT our work to reveal. This is the work of the angels.

The tares are also Gods servants, as Babylon was Gods servant. To polish the Saints, to bring them close to the fire for refinement. To reveal the wheat in due time, in Gods time.

Invisible Church:

"God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments."

Manuscript Releases, Volume 17 pg 81

Visible Church:

"God has a church upon the earth, who are His chosen people, who keep His commandments. He is leading, not stray offshoots, not one here and one there, but a people. The truth is a sanctifying power, but the church militant is not yet the church triumphant. . . ."

Volume 4; The Australian Years pg 81