Sola Scriptura

[cardw]

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What? Are you some kind of idol worshipper? Making the Scriptures into an idol. Yea, I know your kind. I bet next you are going to claim Jesus made Scriptures into an idol. You will do anything to defend your precious Bible, won't you?

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You know Shane, this may be your attitude, but its not mine. Just because I may place the Bible in a different context doesn't mean that I feel this way about those who take the Bible more seriously. I would never say anything so rude as, "You will do anything to defend your precious Bible, won't you." So don't place those types of things in my mouth. This is pretty dishonest of you.

You, who claim to have a higher spiritual understanding, use slander and misrepresentation to make your points. This is one reason that I do not follow those, like yourself, that take the Bible so literally. It is because it produces attitudes like this. Was it not Jesus who stated that by one's fruits you may know them?

It is not the Bible that is the problem, it is the way in which it has been used as an authority, rather than a document that points to the truth. And the truth is much more than words and books. You do not find salvation in the Bible, you only find a way to it. And once you have found your way, you don't need a map. You only need the map when you get lost. You may not know this but early Christianity was called The Way. And early Christianity did quite well without a Bible.

[cardw]

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And thus in your rational for disbelieving the Word, the reason the world is in the condition it is in, is a result of looking for answers from the Holy Scripture, which Jesus said the Pharisees read.

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I believe what is true and the Bible is not always true. Or it is immature in some of things it advocates. Genocide as a solution is one of them. Stoning people for gathering wood is another.

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"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" John 5:39 KJV

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This is my point exactly. The scriptures themselves do not have eternal life, they only point to a path. Holding scripture as anything more is idol worship. For when one has found what they are looking for, in this case Jesus' spirit, then the spirit will instruct on a day to day, minute to minute basis. Life is too complex to have a scripture for every single situation. Even more today, there are issues that have moved far beyond anything the Bible talks about. As we face the ethical challenges of technology and medical science, we need much more than rational arguments, we need a deep sense of our humanity and awareness of what it means to be compassionate, loving, and enlightened.

We are about to face things that no one has seen. As I have studied science we are on the verge of some quantum leaps and with these comes a brave new world. I'm not saying that this is good or bad, but the potential for great harm is there. Christianity is not prepared for this because it has blinders on and is debating trivial doctrinal issues and fighting imaginary persecutional fads.

In other words it has its head buried in some literal version of the Bible based on revivalist mentalities and superstitions of the 17th and 18th century. The Bible has some incredibly deep, mystical statements, but this are all but obliterated by ignorance and misrepresentation.

[Dr. Shane]

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I would never say anything so rude

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I was the one that said it - tongue firmly planted in cheeck - I stuck a little wink-graemlin there so everyone would know I was trying to be funny.

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You, who claim to have a higher spiritual understanding

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If I have a higher understanding than others on this forum we are all in trouble. I'm just an average, everday, born-again Joe. I know nothing but Christ and Him crucified.

<img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/talk2hand.gif" alt="" />

[cardw]

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What? Are you some kind of idol worshipper? Making the Scriptures into an idol. Yea, I know your kind. I bet next you are going to claim Jesus made Scriptures into an idol. You will do anything to defend your precious Bible, won't you?

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Come now Shane. Either you are agreeing with me or you are making fun of my position by exaggeration. You may have written this, but it appears to me to be a gross exaggeration of my position. That is hardly something we all can laugh at.

This is like me stating "You're an Idiot " and saying "I was the one that said it - tongue firmly planted in cheeck - I stuck a little wink-graemlin there so everyone would know I was trying to be funny."

Ha Ha

[Dr. Shane]

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you are making fun of my position by exaggeration.

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That is hardly something we all can laugh at.

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Well, I have no problem laughing at myself when I say goofy things.

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This is like me stating "You're an Idiot "

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Oh my! I hope it isn't like that. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[cardw]

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Well, I have no problem laughing at myself when I say goofy things.

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Well, what you are doing is not goofy, its slander. By exaggerating MY position, you are not laughing at yourself. You are laughing at my position.

You are free to say what you want, but don't expect me to accept garbage just because its wrapped in a pretty package.

When you can respond to the topic with something meaningful, and stop this dancing around, I might see you as someone who is honestly trying to communicate.

[Dr. Shane]

I am sorry. I wasn't trying to ruffle your feathers. I was just trying to show aburdity by being absurd. If I was there in person I would give you a shoulder rub. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[cardw]

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I am sorry. I wasn't trying to ruffle your feathers. I was just trying to show aburdity by being absurd. If I was there in person I would give you a shoulder rub.

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Look, slander is not an issue of ruffling my feathers. You were not trying to show absurdity by being absurd. You were saying that my position was absurd by misrepresenting it.

Shane, I'm sure you are a likable person, but intellectual dishonesty is dishonest. I will not allow you to misrepresent my beliefs. If you do, I will call you on it. It has nothing to do with my feathers being ruffled.

If you are doing 12 step work then you should be familiar with the term rigorous honesty. This is not about my feelings being hurt or whatever slant you want to put on it. Its about accurately representing what I believe.

I do not find the idea that people make an idol out of the Bible absurd at all.

[wicklunds]

I would take issue with that concept (bible idolatry) only because people don't really understand what Biblical idolatry is anymore. Now it seems we are using that argument as an excuse not to read and understand our Bibles, or to justify evil and unbiblical methods for SDA religious growth.

Dennis

[wicklunds]

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Kevin H said:

I'm sorry, but the quote you used is the exact same one I use to support things such as what Alden Thompson is teaching.

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This is precisely why not all who are called Israel are Israel. One of us does not belong teaching and preaching in SDA schools or from our church pulpits...

[Dr. Shane]

Richard, I appoligized to you for offending you although be it unintentional. I explained to you my motives. If you do not want to accept the appology and continue to question my motives, there is nothing more I can say to you about it.

The idea that the Bible itself can become one's idol, to me, is aburd. I have heard a lot of people criticized for many things but never for making the Bible their idol. I have heard a lot of people judged for many things but never for making the Bible their idol. To me, that is aburd.

[cardw]

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Richard, I appoligized to you for offending you although be it unintentional. I explained to you my motives. If you do not want to accept the appology and continue to question my motives, there is nothing more I can say to you about it.

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This is not about me being offended. I thought I was clear when I said that it matters not what you say, but if you mistate my beliefs I will correct you. Your exaggeration of my position is not even close to what I believe, even though you were trying to be absurd.

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The idea that the Bible itself can become one's idol, to me, is aburd. I have heard a lot of people criticized for many things but never for making the Bible their idol. I have heard a lot of people judged for many things but never for making the Bible their idol. To me, that is aburd.

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This is what you should have said in the first place. This is clear. I can respond to this with a clarificiation.

This is what you said before in exaggeration.

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What? Are you some kind of idol worshipper? Making the Scriptures into an idol. Yea, I know your kind. I bet next you are going to claim Jesus made Scriptures into an idol. You will do anything to defend your precious Bible, won't you?

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No where did I state that Jesus made scriptures into an idol. In fact the text quoted...

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"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" John 5:39 KJV

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...Jesus defines idolotry of the scriptures. It is the idea that the scriptures themselves contain eternal life. Idolotry is creating an image of God and worshiping that. When we place the scriptures in a greater position of authority than God's spirit, we have created an image to God. That is idolotry.

Let's look at the whole context of this...

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But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

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Notice that the greater testimony is not scripture, but the Father's word that dwells within and the works that Jesus did. The Pharasee's were quoting scripture as if language could contain God and truth. Jesus said over and over that truth has to dwell within and this would imply that truth is something far greater than words. So it would not appear that idolotry of the Bible is so absurd.

[cardw]

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I would take issue with that concept (bible idolatry) only because people don't really understand what Biblical idolatry is anymore.

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So what is your definition of Bible idolatry?

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Now it seems we are using that argument as an excuse not to read and understand our Bibles, or to justify evil and unbiblical methods for SDA religious growth.

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Where have I stated that this was an excuse for not understanding the Bible? And what exactly are evil methods of growth?

[wicklunds]

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cardw said:

So what is your definition of Bible idolatry?

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Why not start another thread where we could discuss this at length without threatening the integrity of someone's else's topic?

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cardw said:

Where have I stated that this was an excuse for not understanding the Bible?

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When I stated "we" in my initial post, I meant SDA liberal theologians. I did not necessarily mean you specifically. Sometimes we wear shoes that look good on the outside but give us blisters because they don't actually fit well. Sometimes we wear shoes that are very comfortable feeling but their appearance makes us look like we are something we don't necessarily want to be. Sometimes we wear shoes because they both feel and look great!!! When the shoe fits, we wear it with pride.

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cardw said:

And what exactly are evil methods of growth?

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Why not start another thread where we could discuss this at length without threatening the integrity of someone's else's topic?

Dennis

[cardw]

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Why not start another thread where we could discuss this at length without threatening the integrity of someone's else's topic?

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OK, Dennis, I will ask you these questions in another thread.

Richard

[cardw]

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Where have I stated that this was an excuse for not understanding the Bible?

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When I stated "we" in my initial post, I meant SDA liberal theologians. I did not necessarily mean you specifically. Sometimes we wear shoes that look good on the outside but give us blisters because they don't actually fit well. Sometimes we wear shoes that are very comfortable feeling but their appearance makes us look like we are something we don't necessarily want to be. Sometimes we wear shoes because they both feel and look great!!! When the shoe fits, we wear it with pride.

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Huh?

There are a number of opinions about what shoe looks good, so I'm not sure that preference is strong enough to condemn "liberal theologians," whatever that means.

I don't know any liberal theologians that would make any arguments for not understanding the bible. I would assume that any theologian by the nature of theology (the study of God) would be trying to understand the bible.

[wicklunds]

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cardw said:

I don't know any liberal theologians that would make any arguments for not understanding the bible. I would assume that any theologian by the nature of theology (the study of God) would be trying to understand the bible.

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Huh?

I have no idea what you are referring to here...

[cardw]

Dennis you posted the following...

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Now it seems we are using that argument (Bible idolatry) as an excuse not to read and understand our Bibles

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I stated that I did not say this and you said you were refering to liberal theologians rather than me. So I was wondering why any type of theologian would not want to understand the Bible.

[wicklunds]

That is because a right dividing of the word offends their cherished ideas and theories.

[cardw]

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That is because a right dividing of the word offends their cherished ideas and theories.

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This is still trying to understand, but with different conclusions. I still don't get what you mean by the phrase "trying to not understand the Bible."

[Clio]

Dennis, I have a question... do you ever use Scripture to back up your position?

It seems to me that more often than not, EGW is used, but never that to which she points... The Greater Light of Scripture.

Can you help me understand why there seems to be a rejection of Scripture in favor of EGW in your philosphy and understanding?

Clio

[wicklunds]

I have never rejected scripture, you just assume since someone quotes EW they must have had to reject scripture at some point.

[wicklunds]

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cardw said:

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That is because a right dividing of the word offends their cherished ideas and theories.

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This is still trying to understand, but with different conclusions. I still don't get what you mean by the phrase "trying to not understand the Bible."

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Read 2 Timothy chapter three and especially chapter 4 verse 4 and you will then understand the type of person I am speaking of...

[Clio]

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wicklunds said:

I have never rejected scripture, you just assume since someone quotes EW they must have had to reject scripture at some point.

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No Dennis. You have put words in my mouth I was very, very careful not to say.

I do not make such an assumption at all. I am asking you why you choose to support your positions mostly from the fallible, lesser light than directly from the Word of Abba Father to which Mrs. White directed us over and over and over again.

Do you know it less well than the writings of EGW?

I am trying to understand your paradigm in order to be able to dialog with you.

Clio

[wicklunds]

Sorry, I am choosing not to discuss these volatile issues because of your views. We simply will never agree because of your interpretation of lesser light. I cannot understand why you are SDA...in fact maybe you arent...