Health care, The elephant in the room.

[Stan]

Please DO NOT MAKE THIS ABOUT POLITICS..

The elephant in the room.

In Canada when an MD removes are heart for transplant they can charge $450. In the US they charge $4,500.

They charge similar price no matter what party in power.. DO NOT MAKE THIS POLITICAL please.

A good portion of that goes to insurance costs in the US.

[cricket]

Heartless people can't pay anything either way.

[CoAspen]

Hmmmm..life style differences??

[OzarkWoman]

You also need to look at the statistics concerning their death ration for any disease and such compared to ours. More people die up there, which would be why the people with money come to OUR country to get any operations they need, not to mention the wait for said operatins in Canada.

[Bravus]

You also need to look at the statistics concerning their death ration for any disease and such compared to ours. More people die up there, which would be why the people with money come to OUR country to get any operations they need, not to mention the wait for said operatins in Canada.

Hmm, will be checking this. Pretty sure it's not the case.

[Bravus]

This table is an international comparison: http://preview.tinyurl.com/ch95hjx

Relevant rates for Canada for cardio-vascular disease and cancer are 131 and 135 deaths per 100,000 population respectively and for the USA the figures are 179 and 133 respectively. So, in fact, 37% *more* Americans than Canadians die from cardio-vascular diseases.

[Igakusei]

You have to be very careful when comparing medical statistics between countries on just about anything, because different countries have different reporting methods, cultural attitudes and approaches, even different classifications and definitions for some of these things. I don't know anything specific about cardiovascular mortality, so I'll use infant mortality as an example.

In the United States our threshold for what we consider a "live" birth is very low, so any babies born very pre-term or with serious congenital defects are usually included in that statistic even if they only live for a few minutes. This is not the case in many other countries, so we are "ranked" below a lot of other countries that are only higher on the list than us because they use different reporting methods than we do. So you have to be really careful what conclusions you draw from direct comparisons like that.

There's also a whole lot of money riding on every side of these issues, and a lot of the statistics you read both for and against various controversial issues are intentionally de-contexualized (such as someone arguing that our Ob/Gyn system is horrible because we're ranked 34th in infant mortality worldwide) for propaganda purposes. It's almost always worth digging into the argument with an open mind and taking the time to listen to and understand credible sources from both sides before repeating anything you've heard. Then again, that's probably good advice for taking a side on any controversial point.

[Igakusei]

Others are simply made up, as far as I can tell, such as what OzarkWoman said about "the [Canadians] with money" coming to the US for operations due to concerns with quality/cost/waiting-time differences. There have been a number of large studies on US Healthcare usage by Canadians, I've read several of them, and I can't recall a single one that supported that unfortunately widespread belief.

I'm in the middle of exams at the moment so I'm not going to take the time to cite this properly, but here's a decent article that appears to cover many of the popular ones. You can verify them yourselves with a little Google-fu if you'd like, as these are all things that have actually been studied and published in reputable journals.

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_12523427

[Stan]

There are, it also goes the other way as well at times.

There are reasons.

For Example a friend of mine needed a liver transplant at the about the same time Steve Jobs did.

The guy in Canada had to wait his turn for a liver, based on a number of criteria, Steve's MD could shop for one and pay extra. He got one a lot sooner. My friend got one a few months later. He could not be bumped up over someone who could not afford, wealth was not taken into criteria for priority. My friend is alive and healthy BTW.

After baby Fae, Loma Linda did a number of heart transplants on babies, the vast majority of them in the first year were canadian babies, paid for by the provincial insurance.

I have never seen people raise money for medical procedures, having bake sales or whatever in Canada. I did see that a lot in my years in California

BUT this is not about that, it is about the cost of doing the same procedure and the cost of doing the same thing in both countries.

[Stan]

Have fun with exams, I really do not miss those at all :)

[bonnie]

Others are simply made up, as far as I can tell, such as what OzarkWoman said about "the [Canadians] with money" coming to the US for operations due to concerns with quality/cost/waiting-time differences. There have been a number of large studies on US Healthcare usage by Canadians, I've read several of them, and I can't recall a single one that supported that unfortunately widespread belief.

While you may feel it is made up,many of us have spent hours in hospital waiting rooms for test results and diagnosis. After spending several days doing this you get to know the many others waiting with you.

The last ten hour day my husband and I spent doing this was spent with many from outside the US.Majority Canadians.

Some were at Abbot-Northwestern ,a renowned hospital for tests and procedures that were not available to them at home or the long waiting period if you were not considered an emergency.

The care itself wasn't even the biggest problem,it was getting to a specialist in a timely manner and then having the needed surgery quickly.

My cousins husband would have died had his wife not felt it important he have certain tests immediately.If I recall the wait time for his illness would have been several months.

She brought him across the border to new York and within 24 hours he was on his way to Mayo Hospital and surgery.

I have relatives in Canada that are on a waiting list for hip or knee replacement.Not pleasant.When I needed both done I was sent from my GP straight to the Orthopedic surgeon and had my first surgery scheduled almost immediately following a MRI that was available to me across the hall from his office.

[Stan]

Bonnie, can you please re read the fist comment? You missed it.

[bonnie]

Bonnie, can you please re read the fist comment? You missed it.

I was referring to this

Others are simply made up, as far as I can tell, such as what OzarkWoman said about "the [Canadians] with money" coming to the US for operations due to concerns with quality/cost/waiting-time differences

What is it you are referring to,This?

Please DO NOT MAKE THIS ABOUT POLITICS..

Didn't say anything about politics,only disagree that Ozarkwoman repeated statements that are made up

[cricket]

So, do you really think that it only costs $450 dollars to remove a heart? I mean, seriously?

My next door neighbor runs a lawn mowing business. He charges $45 for a single hour of work on a single yard. For an entire season, at one mow per week, he will earn more than $450. He will spend only 10 hours doing it. And he spent $0 and 0 hours attending university to learn how to mow lawns.

I, personally, think he overcharges, but he makes a living this way and feeds his family of 5. I have mowed lawns since the age of 9. For the past 25 years I've been doing it for free--at my mother's home, my grandmother's home and my father's home.

Just because it's "cheaper" on my side of the grass, doesn't mean that the "cost" is less.

[Stan]

for $450 he uses all the hospital equipment, staff, it takes expertise but should be a quick procedure, wonder what other countries pay?

the big difference is the insurance cost the MD's need to pay for the, sometimes ridiculous, lawsuits.

[bonnie]

for $450 he uses all the hospital equipment, staff, it takes expertise but should be a quick procedure, wonder what other countries pay?

After many tests prior to the surgery,surgery itself takes 6-8 hours.

The surgeon is paid 75.00 an hour for 8 hours work.

My husband made more painting and didn't need the intensive training a heart transplant surgeon does

[Bravus]

The $450 is just for the removal of the heart from the (recently dead) donor. That is obviously a much quicker and less finicky operation than the transplant itself.

Got to compare apples with apples.

[cricket]

Are there no lawsuits in Canada? Just answered my own question with a query on a search engine. Apparently there are, but they have caps on settlement amounts.

So, this elephant is really not one about health costs, nor insurance costs, but really about the fact that United States citizens have an outlet to satiate their human greediness while Canadian citizens are limited by law as to the heights their greediness would otherwise reach.

[Guest]

The $450 is just for the removal of the heart from the (recently dead) donor. That is obviously a much quicker and less finicky operation than the transplant itself.

Exactly! You could do that with some pruning shears and a sharp wood chisel. And maybe a paring knife if you wanted to be fancy. )

[bonnie]

Exactly! You could do that with some pruning shears and a sharp wood chisel. And maybe a paring knife if you wanted to be fancy. )

That is one way,but hardly all that is involved. The donor heart goes thru extreme testing prior to removal as any donor organ does.

While frivolous lawsuits are one cause of medical care it is actually a very small number.

Nor are the caps and government (taxpayer) paid insurance a panacea in medical care.

The cost of that defense and insurance payouts is borne by the taxpayer.

Just one of many articles

http://www.ourangelmatthew.com/malpractice_costs.html

[bonnie]

Ontario.Hardly a free lunch to taxpayers

wikipedia

Modern public scrutiny

In 2003, CBC News broadcast Inside the CMPA,[6] the first in-depth look at the Canadian Medical Protective Association. Featured was former CMPA insider Paul Harte who broke with that organization and is now highly critical of it. Harte offered firsthand, material knowledge of the organization. The broadcast discussed five patients (Morgan Bystedt, Betty O’Reilly, Shannon Shobridge, Anne McSween, and Lorraine Emmonds) who suffered serious injury or death due to medical negligence. They were subjected to what some have described as deliberate wearing-down tactics from the CMPA. Lawyer Pete Mockler was quoted as saying, "...the CMPA fights them so hard… They basically take the view that anyone suing a doctor is in the extortion business."

Paul Harte, along with former B.C. Supreme Court judge Thomas Berger, also spoke out in the CBC broadcast:

"It is driven by protecting the doctor's reputation, almost at all costs. The CMPA would spend $100,000 protecting the doctor against a $5,000 claim. The CMPA may keep a low profile, but if you sue a doctor, it's almost always the Canadian Medical Protective Association running the show. Ninety-five percent of Canadian doctors are members. Just how far will the CMPA go to protect a doctor? The legal strategy is well worn: Deny the doctor did anything wrong, even when the negligence seems pretty clear. That's their strategy. It's coordinated across the country. It's intended to make these cases as difficult as possible for plaintiffs. The truth is, few plaintiffs – or their lawyers – survive the CMPA's suffocating tactics." [6]

Public Financing

Critics argue that public money should not be used to defend doctors accused of negligence or other wrongdoing[7] Civil trial lawyers fear that subsidies paid to fund the defence of doctors creates an unequal playing field for patients who hope to pursue a medical negligence case. They argue that the government is funding one side of a legal dispute, but not the other.[8] Former Ontario Chief Justice Charles Dubin commented that: “Although it is in the public interest that any person charged with a criminal offence be properly represented, it seems difficult to justify public expenditures to place doctors on a different footing from other accused persons.” [9]

One MD was charged in criminal court for sexually assaulting multiple patients, was convicted, then was sued by those victims in civil court. The CMPA funded the doctor's criminal defence, and later the CMPA funded the doctor's civil defence. The CMPA, however, will not pay civil damages to a patient assaulted by a doctor even if the assault occurred during a medical exam. This scenario is seen by critics as stacking the deck against victims attempting to seek redress from physicians.[10]

In 2008, Ontario taxpayers spent $112 million to subsidize the medical malpractice fees paid by doctors. Doctors themselves paid $24 million, which means taxpayers picked up 83 percent of the cost of the malpractice fees. The subsidies paid to the CMPA are part of a "Memorandum of Understanding" between the Ontario Ministry of Health, the Ontario Medical Association, and the Canadian Medical Protective Association. Details of this Memorandum of Understanding between the parties were kept from public view until a court ordered it released following a Freedom of Information request in 2008.[11]

CMPA executive director and CEO Dr. John Gray (long-time CMPA leader to retire in the spring of 2013 after 13 years at the helm of the Canadian Medical Protective Association) explained that while Ontario doctors’ invoices from the CMPA will rise dramatically, the provicial ohysician reimbursement program will be in effect. ‘‘So their out-of-pocket will be no different than they were in 2011/12. The money they pay to CMPA will increase, but they will be eligible to have much of that reimbursed.’’ [12]

Patient safety

[Naomi]

As the point has been made, comparisons are dfficult due to various elements which have to be considered. All that I know for sure is that every year the cost of my private health insurance increases. This year it totals over $400/month and 4 perscriptions run $140/after insurance. Having just had another birthday, next year the cost will again increase.

Last year I was in the hospital for 3 days. When I received the bills, my part was $2100. God Bless the Canadians who are rich enough to come here for health care.

After mother's savings ran out (wouldn't have happened if she had only lived to around 90) my brother and I paid huge amounts of monies each month for her medical expenses.

On the other side of the coin, I am well aware of many people who live in the US who pay absolutely nothing for health care and basically receive the same, if not faster, care than those of us who pay.

[olger]

Troubling scernario, Naomi. Those of us with HSA accounts face the same annual increases. There certainly were/are decent solutions available in the free market, but were not utilized by the liberal left in their imposition of Obamacare. Tort reform and the removal of state boundaries for insurance would have been a long step towards fixing the high cost of health care in America.

Justice Roberts (the judge who stole Christmass) did major damage to American freedom when he sided with the liberal justices in the question of the constitutionality of Obamacare. What now?

Patience may be our best ally, as liberal democrats are already discovering Mr. Hyde in what they thought was good doctor Jekyll.

Let us come boldly to the throne of grace,

G

[Naomi]

[CoAspen]

Quote:

DO NOT MAKE THIS POLITICAL please.

What did you expect from adults!!