And There Was GOSSIP in Heaven

[phkrause]

Waging War with Wicked Words

by Richard M Davidson

http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2013-1503&page=22

[M. T. Cross]

That article implies that Lucifer sinned many times before God decided to give him the boot.

Humans sinned once and were damned.

Ever wonder why that is?

[Woody]

Interesting question EC

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Humans sinned once and were damned.

I don't know if they were damned. According to the story, they were kicked out of the garden of Eden; primarily (IMO) to prevent them from attaining eternal life by eating from the Tree of Life; thereby perpetuating sin. In the same conversation with God, they (and we) were promised a Redeemer. Just as Adam and Eve were afraid of God after they sinned, man continued to be afraid of God right on through the Exodus; refusing to get "close to" (i.e., "enter into a relationship") with Him. Hence He gave us the Law. IMO, that is where damnation came in.

But good news! We have been redeemed! Through Christ, we are reconciled to God! We are advised to boldly approach the throne of grace in our time of need - not to run from it.

I read a verse in 1 Peter this weeking that renewed my hope in salvation:

Quote:

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

(1 Peter 2:9-10)

I know you don't believe as I do EC; but you are an honest and honorable man who is constantly seeking spiritual truth. I also know you weren't raised with the gospel of grace. Nonetheless, I offer you (and others) these words as a comfort of the love so generously poured on us by a god of grace and mercy.

[M. T. Cross]

I don't know if they were damned. According to the story, they were kicked out of the garden of Eden; primarily (IMO) to prevent them from attaining eternal life by eating from the Tree of Life; thereby perpetuating sin. In the same conversation with God, they (and we) were promised a Redeemer. Just as Adam and Eve were afraid of God after they sinned, man continued to be afraid of God right on through the Exodus; refusing to get "close to" (i.e., "enter into a relationship") with Him. Hence He gave us the Law. IMO, that is where damnation came in.

But good news! We have been redeemed! Through Christ, we are reconciled to God! We are advised to boldly approach the throne of grace in our time of need - not to run from it.

I read a verse in 1 Peter this weeking that renewed my hope in salvation:

Quote:

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

(1 Peter 2:9-10)

I know you don't believe as I do EC; but you are an honest and honorable man who is constantly seeking spiritual truth. I also know you weren't raised with the gospel of grace. Nonetheless, I offer you (and others) these words as a comfort of the love so generously poured on us by a god of grace and mercy.

First Joe, let me say that may have been one of the best answers I have ever received on this subject. While it may not convince me, it made good sense.

But by the story we were damned. May have been damned with a way out, but still we lost the Garden, we were condemned with death, pain in childbirth etc. For one sin. Yet by the tone of this article and the verses quoted from Ezekial Lucifer had defiled the temple of God a multitude of times. He had sinned over and over, he invented sin. He was given a very very long rope to hang himself with. So when God had enough he eventually fired him so to speak. Amazing severance package tho - "You get to go out and mess with the whole universe. You get to keep your immortal nature, you get to take your buddies with you and I am giving you the chance to prove you are right, that you can do a better job than me"

So he ends up here with us. He plays a little game with Eve, who I am guessing had a pretty trusting nature as there was really no reason for her not to. She falls for the prank. Adam, based on his love for the partner God had given him does as well. The result is that they are stripped of everything as is every single person that comes along after them. By the Bible theory yes there is hope to regain it. But consider the suffering that comes along with it. Consider that life here is a hard ride. Consider that in this theology it is because of the actions of two people a very very long time ago. Paying for a decision that given the chance to have been in that position you, me, the other person might not have made (of course we may have done the same who knows). We got the dismissal minus a severance package.

Somehow this just not make sense to me.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

But by the story we were damned. May have been damned with a way out, but still we lost the Garden, we were condemned with death, pain in childbirth etc. For one sin. Yet by the tone of this article and the verses quoted from Ezekial Lucifer had defiled the temple of God a multitude of times. He had sinned over and over, he invented sin. He was given a very very long rope to hang himself with. So when God had enough he eventually fired him so to speak. Amazing severance package tho... So he ends up here with us. He plays a little game with Eve, who I am guessing had a pretty trusting nature as there was really no reason for her not to. She falls for the prank. Adam, based on his love for the partner God had given him does as well. The result is that they are stripped of everything as is every single person that comes along after them. By the Bible theory yes there is hope to regain it. But consider the suffering that comes along with it. Consider that life here is a hard ride. ...We got the dismissal minus a severance package.

I wish I had a good answer for your dilemna, EC. I don't. The best I can do is what I underlined above. By comparison,satan doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell to regain it, so to speak. He's quite literally, toast.

[M. T. Cross]

Fair enough Joe.

Now I have often heard it said that up until the death of Christ he did have a chance, he could have redeemed himself. By biblical timelines thats at least 4000 years he had. He also had/has the advantage of actually knowing God. According to the story of Job, he still had a place in heaven, he could still enter and talk directly with God.

As for us, we don't have half of that. Not by many standards anyway. Its not like its really clear what and how we are supposed to regain this "salvation". If it were there would not be a multitude of different Christian religions and so much disagreement within those denominations themselves.

There is simply so very much that does not add up IMO.

[joeb]

First Joe, let me say that may have been one of the best answers I have ever received on this subject. While it may not convince me, it made good sense.

But by the story we were damned. May have been damned with a way out, but still we lost the Garden, we were condemned with death, pain in childbirth etc. For one sin. Yet by the tone of this article and the verses quoted from Ezekial Lucifer had defiled the temple of God a multitude of times. He had sinned over and over, he invented sin. He was given a very very long rope to hang himself with. So when God had enough he eventually fired him so to speak. Amazing severance package tho - "You get to go out and mess with the whole universe. You get to keep your immortal nature, you get to take your buddies with you and I am giving you the chance to prove you are right, that you can do a better job than me"

So he ends up here with us. He plays a little game with Eve, who I am guessing had a pretty trusting nature as there was really no reason for her not to. She falls for the prank. Adam, based on his love for the partner God had given him does as well. The result is that they are stripped of everything as is every single person that comes along after them. By the Bible theory yes there is hope to regain it. But consider the suffering that comes along with it. Consider that life here is a hard ride. Consider that in this theology it is because of the actions of two people a very very long time ago. Paying for a decision that given the chance to have been in that position you, me, the other person might not have made (of course we may have done the same who knows). We got the dismissal minus a severance package.

Somehow this just not make sense to me.

Have you ever thought about how the devil sinned? What did he do? Why didn't God just immediately kill the #1 angel in His government? Can you think of a reason as to why He wouldn't kill the very first liard who just happened to be someone very high in His government?

[JoeMo]

Quote:

There is simply so very much that does not add up IMO.

That is a truth I can't contest EC. Great "bottom line". It doesn't seem fair.

Even though I'm immensely thankful for it, the other side of the coin - "salvation by grace" - doesn't seem fair, either. Why should someone who is (or claims to be) a Christian get a "Get Out of Hell Free" card just because he/she believes in the Gospel message; when a person who has an identical character allegedly goes to hell just cuz they don't believe?

Does that make sense?

[phkrause]

That article implies that Lucifer sinned many times before God decided to give him the boot.

Humans sinned once and were damned.

Ever wonder why that is?

We were not damned. We were immediately put under the plan of salvation, to be restored back to God. We are finally damned when we reject Jesus as our Savior. And even than damned reluctantly.