Textus Receptus and the KJV

[Stewart (SDA)]

Just recently I've been looking into some of the history of Bible manuscripts, and I find a 'problem'.

The term “Textus Receptus” appeared for the first time after the 1633 publication of the New Testament Greek text by the Elzevirs’.

In the preface of that 1633 edition were the words (originally in Latin):

“The reader has the text which is now received by all, in which we give nothing changed or corrupted.”

And “thus, [writes a commentator,] the publishers ‘blurb’ became the catchword (Textus Receptus, “Received Text”) to designate the Greek text which they had incorporated from the editions of Stephanus, Beza, and Ximenes.” (Geisler and Nix, p.386)

I am now certain that the timing of this cannot be challenged:

KJV = 1611.

Genuine Textus Receptus = 1633.

So I am persuaded that the Textus Receptus was not in existence when the KJV was published in 1611. Those that advocate a strong Textus Receptus / KJV link, seem to be advocating a commonly held, but rather false and misleading view.

The Textus Receptus did not exist until more than 20 years after the KJV came into being.

[Gail]

Related to this- the codex which they call Sinaiticus, is supposed to be the oldest one available. Is this true?

[Gibs]

Would you rather have the texts Westcott and Hort used? Trashed texts found in an old Monastery?

The Waldenses kept the true texts and the Sabbath up through time and you will not beat the texts used by the KJV and the NKJV is not so great.

If you have the disc of EGW put in Waldenses on the search line.

This is hit #10,

"The Waldenses were the first of all the peoples of Europe to obtain a translation of the Holy Scriptures. Hundreds of years before the Reformation, they possessed the Bible in manuscript in their native tongue. They had the truth unadulterated, and this rendered them the special objects of hatred and persecution. They declared the Church of Rome to be the apostate Babylon of the Apocalypse, and at the peril of their lives they stood up to resist her corruptions. While, under the pressure of long-continued persecution, some compromised their faith, little by little yielding its distinctive principles, others held fast the truth. Through ages of darkness and apostasy, there were Waldenses who denied the supremacy of Rome, who rejected image worship as idolatry, and who kept the true Sabbath. Under the fiercest tempests of opposition they maintained their faith. Though gashed by the Savoyard spear, and scorched by the Romish fagot, they stood unflinchingly for God's Word and his honor. {GC88 65.1}

Behind the lofty bulwarks of the mountains,—in all ages the refuge of the persecuted and oppressed,—the Waldenses found a hiding-place. Here the light of truth was kept burning amid the darkness of the Middle Ages. Here, for a thousand years, witnesses for the truth maintained the ancient faith." {GC88 65.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world

[Gail]

Quote:

Would you rather have the texts Westcott and Hort used? Trashed texts found in an old Monastery?

Gibs, Ellen White used a Westcott and Hort bible a LOT in the Desire of Ages (and also the Great Controversy, too, I believe).

The scrolls in the monastery were so numerous that they apparently used them to kindle fires, too, I've heard.

[Stewart (SDA)]

Thank you Gibs.

I am not suggesting a doubt as to the authenticity of the Bible.

But what is striking to me is the sometimes hyped assertion that the KJV is the only reliable version of Scripture, because it was derived from the Textus Receptus. In reality, that assertion is little better than hopeful propaganda.

I understand the problems with Westcott and Hort, and I do agree that the KJV IS a reliable text, but again, it appears to me that the "KJV only" advocates build on a very unsound foundation.

[Gibs]

I think there is a problem with any Bible that is copyrighted.

For me anyway the Bible, the Word of God cannot be copyrighted and so unless it has so many changes that it can be.

Check your Bible to see if it is, if so is it just a book then?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world

[Tom Wetmore]

What does copyrighting have to do with the source material?

[Gibs]

What I have come to understand there has to be so many changes before a publisher can claim a copyright. I don't want any changes from what don't have to have a copyright for me.

For one the KJV is not copyrighted, I at this time don't know of any others.

Gail Riplinger has a book "New Age Bible Versions" and she has done her homework. I have it and it has been many yrs since I read it but I think it answers all questions.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world

[Tom Wetmore]

If by homework you mean housework, you might be closer to the truth. Gail Riplinger apparently is a Home Economics teacher that by her own admission has no knowledge of either Hebrew or Greek. She is far from a reliable source on this topic. Much of what she says is basically nonsense. Read this - http://www.kjvonly.org/james/may_reviews.htm

[Gibs]

Sure the new age lovers will try to trash the KJV and protect their beloved way of adding removing etc.

For an example check out who and what they believed by the translators of the NIV.

I will stick to the KJV which runs with the Greek and Hebrew dictionary.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gail]

Translators incorporated their biases into their versions, tis true, and the KJV translators are no exception. That is why they used the word "hell" for Sheol when it really should be "grave".

I like the KJV, but you need to be aware that it is not perfect, either.

[Kevin H]

The Geneva Bible was the popular Bible for Protestants, except for Church of England Priests who preferred the Bishop's Bible. King James wanted a Bible that compromised between the beliefs of the leaders of the Church of England, the other Protestants and the Catholics (as he was a closet Catholic)

[Gail]

And the Geneva Bible has the Apocrypha, doesn't it?

[Windsor]

Would you rather have the texts Westcott and Hort used? Trashed texts found in an old Monastery?

The Waldenses kept the true texts and the Sabbath up through time and you will not beat the texts used by the KJV and the NKJV is not so great.

If you have the disc of EGW put in Waldenses on the search line.

This is hit #10,

"The Waldenses were the first of all the peoples of Europe to obtain a translation of the Holy Scriptures. Hundreds of years before the Reformation, they possessed the Bible in manuscript in their native tongue. They had the truth unadulterated, and this rendered them the special objects of hatred and persecution. They declared the Church of Rome to be the apostate Babylon of the Apocalypse, and at the peril of their lives they stood up to resist her corruptions. While, under the pressure of long-continued persecution, some compromised their faith, little by little yielding its distinctive principles, others held fast the truth. Through ages of darkness and apostasy, there were Waldenses who denied the supremacy of Rome, who rejected image worship as idolatry, and who kept the true Sabbath. Under the fiercest tempests of opposition they maintained their faith. Though gashed by the Savoyard spear, and scorched by the Romish fagot, they stood unflinchingly for God's Word and his honor. {GC88 65.1}

Behind the lofty bulwarks of the mountains,—in all ages the refuge of the persecuted and oppressed,—the Waldenses found a hiding-place. Here the light of truth was kept burning amid the darkness of the Middle Ages. Here, for a thousand years, witnesses for the truth maintained the ancient faith." {GC88 65.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world

Unfortunately there is no evidence whatsoever that the Waldenses kept the Saturday Sabbath. They deny it to this day.

[Windsor]

The KJV is not copyrighted because copyrights are not valid after 400 years.

[Windsor]

And the Geneva Bible has the Apocrypha, doesn't it?

So did the KJV Bible Ellen White famously held up during a vision.

[Gail]

That is why you find various publishing houses putting out KJV Bibles.

I think that in the U.S. copyrights are invalid after 17 years, isn't it?

[Gail]

The Geneva Bible was the popular Bible for Protestants, except for Church of England Priests who preferred the Bishop's Bible. King James wanted a Bible that compromised between the beliefs of the leaders of the Church of England, the other Protestants and the Catholics (as he was a closet Catholic)

Besides that the Geneva Bible took an anti-king (government) stance.

[Gail]

My KJV 400-year anniversary Bible, which is a facsimile to the original, has the apocrypha, yes.

It also has the note from the translators which says that they did not expect the KJV to be the last version.

[Tom Wetmore]

That is why you find various publishing houses putting out KJV Bibles.

I think that in the U.S. copyrights are invalid after 17 years, isn't it?

That would be more like the length of a patent (17 or 20 years, depending on certain factors).

For works created after 1978 a copyright is good for the life of the one creating the work plus 70 years. For works prior to 1978, the rules were mor complicated, depending when the work was created. But it would have been at least 28 years, renewable for some number of years beyond that.

[Gibs]

It is interresting to note that Dr. Frank Logsdon, Co-founder of the NASB made this statement, this is the last sentence of what I have of it,

"You can say the "Authorized Version" KJV is absolutely correct. How correct? 100% correct!....I believe the Spirit of God led the tranlators of the Authorized Version. If you must stand against everyone else, stand....

The following is a litle more I found he stated.

I must under God renounce all attachment to the NASB, I don't want anything to do with it. He stated "I am afraid I am in trouble with the LORD!

To come out like that says a lot for Dr. Frank Logsdon!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Planey]

Do you have a link to this quotation, Gibs?

If so, could you post it please?

Graeme

[Kevin H]

One of the problems with the King James Bible is that there were several words that they did not know now to translate. Last I heart (and this was a few years back so the number may now be less) but that there were still 3,000 words that appear in the Bible that translators can only guess at. There were many more in the time of the KJV.

[Gibs]

Planey, I am sure that read is is in Gail Riplinger's book, "New Age Bible Versions". It is in the front of the book. Yes Gail did not have a group of letters in front of her nAme but neither did John and Baptist and most who were the prophets.

For many years now many are the attacks on the KJV that are false, don't believe them, stick to the best out there and the Hebrew Greek dictionary runs with it on your computer which is a real plus, gives you the meaning of all words and you can decide if translators used the best English words.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gail]

People that actually know something about Bible translations don't put a lot of credence to Riplinger's book.