Babylon is fallen...

[Gail]

Thanks to James Rafferty for this one

Babylon is fallen- is not that like when Rome had fallen, or the Berlin Wall had fallen?

IOW, does the proclamation that Babylon is fallen mean that it has actually come to an end?

Why or why not?

[olger]

It has fallen from grace, and like Lucifer before it (Isaiah 14:12) has no more access to heaven.

g

[Gibs]

Yes, fallen from grace in that it has gone into such deep Apostasy and clear there is no turning back and like Satan will continue to deceive until stopped by the now at the doors coming of Jesus Christ in full Glory and all power this time and the elements of earth will be burned in His Presence!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[o2bwise]

The main application of much of Scripture is yet future. As an example, while a historicist interpretation identifies Babylon as fallen, White refers to the work of portions of Babylon distributing Bibles worldwide.

A time is coming when all people of valid faith will be perfected in character by their High Priest. A biblical terminology for this astonishing transition is their exit from the holy place/entrance into the Most Holy.

The transition is corporate with three manifestations as Revelation reveals (He who was, who is, and who is to come) where this phrase refers to the finishing of the mystery of God - that being, according to Colossians, a certain finishing of the manifestation of Christ IN the believer.

The three groups are identified with the terms 24 elders, 144,000 taken from Israel, and a group made up of folks from every nation, kindred, tongue, and people.

The 24 elders are the firstfruits with respect to the church. The 144,000 represent the church as a whole that are of valid faith. They are also the firstfruits with respect to the world. Of course, final group is those of the world who respond to the last day gospel call.

Anyway, in each of the above 3 cases, a group is undergoing that transition wherein the grace of God perfects. Meanwhile, another group is an implacable enemy of that very same experience. This other group denies that God can perfect the character of His last day people and also believes that God can INCOMPLETELY transform the heart AND believes they are recipients of that incomplete transformation.

This is why the holy place ministry, once valid, is no longer valid for the group that rejects the Most Holy. Satan occupies the holy at this time and they are not aware that this is so. In other words, they profess a valid experience with Jesus, but do not have one. In professing the experience to be an incomplete one, the desecration (abomination of desolation) therefore takes place in the holy.

With the above as a partial contextual backdrop, I suggest the historicist interpretation is a valid one and yet is secondary to an end of time application.

It applies when the experience of perfection that is being proclaimed by the 144,000 to the world, produces the shaking of the world. Those that will receive have received and abide in the Most Holy. They are no longer a part of "Babylon."

Those that remain in Babylon have then committed the abomination that makes desolate in the holy place. Babylon as a corporate body, at this time, is an implacable enemy of Christ.

Babylon is fallen.

Blessings,

Tony

[Gibs]

Here is one that has fallen and never will because Jesus told Peter the gates of hell would not prevail aganinst it. This is the one to get in and stay in.

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Has this one fallen, prevailed against yet? No! It's name? When was it established? When Christ was here!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[debbym]

Quote:

Babylon is fallen- is not that like when Rome had fallen, or the Berlin Wall had fallen?

IOW, does the proclamation that Babylon is fallen mean that it has actually come to an end?

Why or why not?

Babylon did not fall util she rejected the truth. The nominal churches did not fall until the message of Jesus coming, and the conditions to be ready for His appearing was given in the power of the Holy Spirit and rejected. They rejected the offer of Grace and love and power to actually live for Christ.

They held to a Christianity that was permissive of sin, that did not offer a real living relationship with God. It was a form of Godliness that rejected the power of God.

the world cannot become guilty before God until they reject the truth. and they cannot reject the truth until it is made known. Also they cannot accept the truth until it is made known. Jesus is the truth, the way and the life.

Jesus was a savor of life unto life and of death unto death.

Those who accepted God's love when it was revealed lived, and those to rejected it died.

the truth is a sword that cuts both ways.

[Gail]

Great feedback! I thought it was an interesting idea

[Bert]

Thanks to James Rafferty for this one

Babylon is fallen- is not that like when Rome had fallen, or the Berlin Wall had fallen?

IOW, does the proclamation that Babylon is fallen mean that it has actually come to an end?

Why or why not?

The word "Babylon' is associated with 'confusion', and its derivative is 'Babel'...the tower built after the flood by Nimrod.

The symbolism of Babylon in Revelation is the confusion that ensued in the early years of the church through the co-mingling of the 'gospel truths' and the paganistic rituals and rites that crept into the church. It is this system of doctrinal beliefs that is considered to be 'Babylon' from an eschatological viewpoint. Thus those who have found and accepted the truths in the Bible, and have rejected the apostasy within the 'Babylon' church(es), have 'come out of Babylon'...the mother of confusion and apostasy.

When the Babylon church(es) are exposed for what they are, then 'Babylon' is starting to fall.

[Gail]

And the restitution that is spoken of in Acts 3:21?

[ToTEDave]

Here's how I see "Babylon is Fallen". Babylon will be completely fallen when all are sealed or marked. However, at the beginning of the loud cry of Rev. 18:1 it will be fallen in the sence that it will be completely exposed for what it is. The 144,000 will be sealed, followed by the great multitue. The wicked will be marked. Bablyon continues its fall until the close of probation, the end of the judgment. Dave

[Gibs]

The whole world of religions has fallen and all so called churhes of the world.

There is one not of this world not fallen into apostasy etc.

Jesus named it and built it! "My Church" or Ekklesia. "Church" is only when He is in the midst thereof!

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

It is a Spiritual Building, built of Jesus Christ Gods own named Builder.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Mt 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

"Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church." {UL 315.5}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[NJK Project]

The Full understanding of this topic/issue is (also) quite Spiritual Involved. It requires, through having Fully understood and heeded Christ’s Gospel mandate, understanding the present phase of Spiritual Babylon, (-namely Protestant America having taken over from the Roman Catholic Empire-Church). The cross-sectional contribution of Revelation’s Series of Sevens shows that Babylon does in some substantive way, fall during the Sixth Series of Events (i.e., the Sixth: Church, Seal, Trumpet, [Thunder], Plague), thus sometime before the utter end of things.

In other words, contrary to what most SDA’s have done, the prophecy of Fall of Babylon does not (1) end at Rev 18:5, nor is what is stated in Rev 18:6-24 speaking of what occurs at the Second Coming. God will distinctly, openly judge Babylon before that utter end.

From a plausible geo-political, military prognosis-scenario, this actually most likely would have occurred starting with the 9/11 Events, had not God then injuctively acted to ‘Hold Back those (Four) Winds’....all because, as it was twice the case in EGW’s time, the SDA Church had still not priorly done its part to actually and properly “Finish the/its Work”.

(To “get” such pivotal things, “Laodicea” will have to actually/tangibly, fully go back to being Philadelphia (Rev 3:7-13), i.e., back to the point during its prior Philadelphia Era went it began to go off course...and avoid those same errors. Hint: the snubbing of (John Harvey Kellogg’s correct) ‘Isa 58 & Latter Rain’ message -see here.)

[Windsor]

The whole world of religions has fallen and all so called churhes of the world.

There is one not of this world not fallen into apostasy etc.

Jesus walks among the 7 churches of Revelation. Even when those churches have some faults, He still walks there. His church is not a million lone wolves scattered around the world. He has an organized church.

[skyblue888]

lone wolves!!! lol

[skyblue888]

"The church is God's fortress, His city of refuge which He holds in a revolted world." A.A.11.

"The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress which He holds in a revolted world and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own." D.A.324.

[Gordon1]

He has an organized church.

The 7000 which had not bowed to Baal were all organized (ordered) under Christ. (1 Kings 19:18)

[Gordon1]

Seven thousand lone wolves.

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

The whole world of religions has fallen and all so called churhes of the world.

There is one not of this world not fallen into apostasy etc.

Jesus walks among the 7 churches of Revelation. Even when those churches have some faults, He still walks there. His church is not a million lone wolves scattered around the world. He has an organized church.

\

Did you notice though that it stated of those seven churches, just the location, it's where abouts.

Christ's Church was established at those 7 locations and so today, if it is truly His Church and not one of men of the world it would still be "The Church at East Columbus", for an example.

His Church never fell into any kind of Apostasy, all the rest have. Show me one that hasn't and I'll show you where it has!

His Church are not a bunch of lone wolves as even one in a prison cell can be in with the whole of it by Spirit. His Church is a Spiritual Church and like scripture states,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

And so the Faithful do just that! Yes MUST as it states.

Mt 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

God alone can build His Church and it never fell so why do men go around builing a structure of men they want to call His Church?

Those are not His Churches, they are of men, who heads them up and organizes them and ordains in them many not sent of God!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[NJK Project]

Originally Posted By: Windsor

He has an organized church.

The 7000 which had not bowed to Baal were all organized (ordered) under Christ. (1 Kings 19:18)

Presently application prophecy (Rev 11) reveals that those “7000” actually ‘lose their prior good “name” (=character)’ and thus also fail/fall in this "Shaking". (Rev 11:13)

They will not be mercifully “spared” (as the correct translation actually says) as those in 1 Kgs 19:18 were.

Says the (concealed) SOP: “There was not a Seventh-day Adventist to be seen”!

[Gail]

Rafferty was also talking about the Babylon WE are, in those times when we are guilty of misrepresenting God in our lives. We could be just as causative of confusion as some "out there".

Just a thought.

[olger]

James right.

Authenticity needed.

[skyblue888]

7,000 lone wolves!

God's faithful few are no lone wolves but lone sheep.

I send you as "sheep" among wolves.

sky

[skyblue888]

The message of Revelation 14 "Babylon is fallen"

applied to the churches in 1844 who had rejected

the first angel's message.

The message of Revelation 18 "Babylon the Great

is fallen" will apply to all the churches which

shall work together for a union of church and

state in order to enforce religion upon all

through the enactment of a National Sunday Law

first in the United States and then in every

country on the globe. By doing this they will

make in image to the beast and it will be but

a short time before they give their power to

the beast and her wound will be healed.

Only when Sunday is enforced through the union

of Church and State will the message of Revelation

18:1-5 be present truth. Only then will the message

"Babylon the great is fallen," be present truth

for then and then only will it be true that "her

sins have reached unto heaven."

sky

[Gibs]

Great Babylon has fallen world wide and that includes all denominational church structures of men.

There is one that has not, it has no denominational name however, read what Jesus tells you about it,

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Tell me, has the gates of hell prvailed against it?

No! Emphatically No! He alone is it's Builder, He alone is it's Head, He alone is it's Organizer, He alone is it's Ordainer!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[skyblue888]

Gibs,

There is a difference between "Babylon is fallen"

and "Babylon the Great is fallen."

The message of Revelation 18:1-5 is not present

truth yet. Shouldn't we know that? It cannot be

said or proclaimed that "Babylon the Great is

fallen" until her sins have reached unto heaven.

When will her sins have reached unto heaven?

sky