Accidents and God's providence

[Igakusei]

Sure:

Those who are faithfully true to their trusts and to their covenants; And those who strictly guard their (five compulsory congregational) prayers (at their fixed stated hours). These are indeed the inheritors. Who shall inherit the Firdaus (Paradise). They shall dwell therein forever.

[JoeMo]

Miracles seem to be in the eyes of the beholder. My mom was diagnosed with stage 4 bladder cancer a yesr ago; it was confirmed that it had spread into muscle tissue and her kidney in November; and was told there was no sign of cancer last week 9about 2 weeks after her bladder burst).

I say the disappearance of the cancer could very well be a miracle. Doctors call it spontaneious healing and/or better than typical response to the chemo she was on. Other family members say it was due to the diligence and knowledge of the doctors that she was cured. My response - are the wonders of modern medical practice anything less than a miracle?

I don't have an objective quantitative answer for the natural or supernatural cause of her healing. I want to believe it was a miracle; cuz I believe God is cool enough to do that for my mom.

On the other hand, my good friend's wife (who just died of cancer) was prayed for just as much as my mom. She died anyways; leaving a teenage daughter. Why save an 87 year-old woman and not save a 50 year-old stay-at-home mom? I have no answer for that.

[joeb]

I've been in a few accidents where I think I can safely say God intervened.

One was an accident that wasn't. I'd been drinking and doing drugs since noon and it was now 2 AM. My buddy and I had picked up a couple of girls and were out driving on a pretty narrow country lane getting even higher. The car I was driving was pretty good at cornering and I went into this 90 degree corner at 50 mph. I got half way through the corner and all traction was gone. I hit 3rd gear, punched the throttle, and turned the wheel in the direction of slide. We came out of the slide without leaving the road.

We went back to see what had happened and there was a plugged irrigation ditch culvert. All the water flowing in the ditch was running across the road in a stream 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch deep and about 40 feet wide. No wonder we hydroplaned.

There's no way we should have stayed on the road at that speed. Had we left the road we would have rolled right through the ditch and through a barb wire fence.

In the another wreck I was in a pickup being driven by my older brother. It was dark. The road was a dirt road on a mountainside and it had been raining for a few weeks. The sides of the road were really soft and he drove too close to the edge and we just got sucked over the edge.

We rolled about 100 yards down the side of the mountain and ended up facing uphill on all four wheels with the back bumper against a big fir tree. Had we not hit that tree we would have gone a lot further down the side of that mountain. I cut my wrist when I shoved my right hand through the back window but that was the only injury.

Funny thing about that wreck was I knew before I got in that pickup that we were going to have a wreck. I told my brother I didn't want to go because he was going to wreck that pickup but he talked me into going over my objections. That's the first of two wrecks I've been in where I knew we were going to get in a wreck when I got into the car. It's the only two times I've ever had that premonition.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Was your initial presentation of Pascal's Wager just something you copy/pasted from somewhere else without really thinking about it?

Since I'm not even sure what your talking about with above comment, I'll just accept the fact as your best shot.

OTOH, when your reference to the writings, as per:

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Al-Mu'minun 23:8-11

Those who are faithfully true to their trusts and to their covenants; And those who strictly guard their (five compulsory congregational) prayers (at their fixed stated hours). These are indeed the inheritors. Who shall inherit the Firdaus (Paradise). They shall dwell therein forever.

Originally Posted By: Hadith - Sahih Bukhari 4:569

Then Allah [swt] will say (to him): 'I have forbidden Paradise for the disbelievers.'

Sorry Life. If they're right and you're wrong, you're going to Muslim hell when you die.

____this still does not include one who was willing to die for me so that I may live, and is also an historical Figure willing to give me eternal life as a gift (that is without cost from me), sealing the covenant by His shed blood and accepting in its' place all that about me is worthy of death, all the while working out within me that which is needed to dwell in the Light Eternal.

"[Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight."Philippians 2:13 AMP

If you are satisfied with a future in which you must earn your way into the good graces of something or someone other than the Creator and your finding all the fruit of the Holy Spirit (But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Galatians 5:21)in your life, this is the free will given by the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is in them, free will, even to His enemies.

"“Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me, and anyone who isn’t working with me is actually working against me.

“So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come."Matt 12:30-32 NLT brackets parenthesis their's LHC

And that last part about never being forgiven for speaking against the Holy Spirit is not an arbitrary decision made by a vengeful God , but is the natural result of the purposeful exclusion of the only Conduit, if you please, for receiving the Truth.

"But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him], and He will announce and declare to you the things that are to come [that will happen in the future]." John 16:13 AMP brackets parenthesis their's LHC

"Jesus *said to him, “I am the....truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

John 14:6 NASB

"And this is what God has testified: He has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have God’s Son does not have life."1 John 5:11-12 NLT

"and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”John 8:32 NASB

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Praise God, not only for His intervention but also for giving you the insight to see clearly that, but for the grace of God, you'd probably have been seriously injured, if not seriously dead.

God cares!

[Igakusei]

I don't really want to drag this out, but I'll summarize it really quick to try to catch you up. I'm not asking you to agree with me, but I want you to try to understand my thought process here:

1. You said that if Adventists are correct, that they get to enjoy an eternity of bliss in heaven with God.

2. You said that conversely if they are wrong, then they get the same fate that the unbelievers are already expecting.

3. This is generally known as "Pascal's Wager," after the man known for proposing it in the 17th century. It makes it seem like a good bet, because if you make that bet and win you win everything, and if you make that bet and lose you get the same outcome as having not made the bet. Seems sensible to make the bet then, right?

4. Of my several problems with it, one is that it assumes that if you are wrong that the unbelievers are right. I tried to point out why this is a problem by illustrating that there are a huge number of ways to be wrong, and at least according to most major religions (including yours) there are only a few ways to be right.

5. So the bet should look like:

A. If I bet on religion A being correct and win, I win everything.

B. If I bet on religion A being correct and lose, I lose big time if religion B is correct.

C. If I bet on religion A being correct and lose, I lose big time if religion C is correct.

D. If I bet on religion A being correct and lose, I lose big time if religion D is correct.

E. If I bet on religion A being correct and lose, I lose big time if religion E is correct.

F. If I bet on religion A being correct and lose, I lose big time if religion F is correct.

…

W If I bet on religion A being correct and lose, I lose big time if religion W is correct.

X. If I bet on religion B being correct and win, I win everything.

Y. If I bet on religion B being correct and lose, I lose big time if religion A is correct.

Z. etc.

6. As I hope you can see, there will turn out to be a LOT more ways to be wrong than there are to be right.

IMPORTANT POINT: I'm not saying that this means betting on your religion is a bad idea!!!! I'm only saying that using pascal's wager as you did several posts up (although you did not know it by that name) is a poor argument for faith.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

" using pascal's wager as you did several posts up (although you did not know it by that name) is a poor argument for faith."

I agree heartily with you. It is the same principle of argument satan used when trying to tempt Jesus to doubt His Father's counsel in which he had such success with Eve in the garden of Eden.

"During that time the devil came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread.”" Matthew 4:3 NLT

"Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”" Genesis 3:4-5 NKJV

To admit that there is any other possibility than what Jehovah God has said is to cast aspersions on the reality of accepting Him as the first cause of all as described in the Word. Thank you for bringing my attention to the error.

God cares!

[Bravus]

OK, breaking my silence. Feel free to look away if made uncomfortable.

Life on earth now is indistinguishable from the way it would look if it was purely chance and the outworking of natural laws with no supernatural intervention. Rates of death, injury and survival of accidents are identical for believers and non-believers, prayers and non-prayers.

Subjectively, feel free to believe that your survival was miraculous: but then you need to account for the believers who didn't survive.

And sliding it off into 'oh, God knows stuff we don't know, so we can't meaningfully interpret' - well, do that if you want to, but again, it means that the outcomes we actually see are indistinguishable from chance.

The truth as I see it. Not comfortable, but true.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

The truth as I see it. Not comfortable, but true.

It might be uncomfortable to some but it falls in line with what the scriptures reveal about the Truth.

"I want you to remember what the holy prophets said long ago and what our Lord and Savior commanded through your apostles.

Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires. They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.”"2 Peter 3:2-4 NLT

God cares!

[Woody]

Quote:

Rates of death, injury and survival of accidents are identical for believers and non-believers, prayers and non-prayers.

I suspect that that might be pretty close to the way things are currently Bravus. Good work. I think you are in line with Ellen White and the concept of the Great Controversy.

And also this thought:

Quote:

The way in which Christ worked was to preach the Word, and to relieve suffering by miraculous works of healing. But I am instructed that we cannot now work in this way, for Satan will exercise his power by working miracles. God's servants today could not work by means of miracles, because spurious works of healing, claiming to be divine, will be wrought. {2SM 54.2}

[Planey]

Bravus:

Woody

Graeme

[Gail]

Intriguing comments! :)

[joeb]

Praise God, not only for His intervention but also for giving you the insight to see clearly that, but for the grace of God, you'd probably have been seriously injured, if not seriously dead.

God cares!

Those were just two of quite a few times God has intervened in a big way my life. I've gone over the handlebars of a motorcycle at 80+ mph without a helmet and got two scratches on my right arm. I've been in a car that knocked over a tree and just got whiplash out of it. I've seen the devil face to face when he came to claim me as his own. I was moved out of the way of a car when I ran out in front of it when I was in the first grade.

There's a few more I could add to the list, but that's enough to show that God has intervened in my life a bunch of times over the years. Why He's done so I don't know. I certainly can't say I've always represented Him the right way at all times. I just know I owe a much larger debt to Him than most people do.

[Igakusei]

To admit that there is any other possibility than what Jehovah God has said is to cast aspersions on the reality of accepting Him as the first cause of all as described in the Word. Thank you for bringing my attention to the error.

[joeb]

The truth about God will never be known by intellectual ability or through reason alone. We meet God through His revealing Himself to each of us as individuals. So, no matter where a person lives they can know God and they can follow Him by following the influence of the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit works with all men/people. They may not even know they are following God, but the results in their lives will tell if they are or not.

[debbym]

Quote:

The process of doubt is the only way to discover if your beliefs have merit, because ideas that accurately represent reality are much more likely to survive careful scrutiny than ideas that are wrong.

i question this idea. questioning is not the same as doubt.

i learn through a process of questioning. examination is also a way of learning, increasing review and observations, does not require suspicion, or putting to the grid of suspension of belief.

scrutinizing generally leads to a stronger connection to ones biases and prejudices, and less open to discovery, something surprising and new.

[Igakusei]

i question this idea. questioning is not the same as doubt.

i learn through a process of questioning. examination is also a way of learning, increasing review and observations, does not require suspicion, or putting to the grid of suspension of belief.

scrutinizing generally leads to a stronger connection to ones biases and prejudices, and less open to discovery, something surprising and new.

Examination with doubt sounds like a good recipe for letting confirmation bias run amok. You can learn a lot about our reptilian overlords by examining videos like this, but you may never discover that the whole thing is silly and unfounded unless you take the time to wonder whether you might just be seeing the effects of things like video compression.

How could doubting the absolute truth of the beliefs you already hold possibly make you less likely to discover something surprising and new?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

There's a few more I could add to the list, but that's enough to show that God has intervened in my life a bunch of times over the years. Why He's done so I don't know.

A powerful testimony that God's love for us is not regulated by our just desserts, but by His great love for us in the midst of our discombobulated condition.

" “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him."John 3:16-17 NLT

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

The truth about God will never be known by intellectual ability or through reason alone. We meet God through His revealing Himself to each of us as individuals. So, no matter where a person lives they can know God and they can follow Him by following the influence of the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit works with all men/people. They may not even know they are following God, but the results in their lives will tell if they are or not.

[debbym]

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted By: joeb

The truth about God will never be known by intellectual ability or through reason alone. We meet God through His revealing Himself to each of us as individuals. So, no matter where a person lives they can know God and they can follow Him by following the influence of the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit works with all men/people. They may not even know they are following God, but the results in their lives will tell if they are or not.

Quote:

from LifeHiscost Quote:

Wherever there is an impulse of love and sympathy, wherever the heart reaches out to bless and uplift others, there is revealed the working of God’s Holy Spirit. In the depths of heathenism, men who have had no knowledge of the written law of God, who have never even heard the name of Christ, have been kind to His servants, protecting them at the risk of their own lives. Their acts show the working of a divine power. The Holy Spirit has implanted the grace of Christ in the heart of the savage, quickening his sympathies contrary to his nature, contrary to his education. The “Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world” (John 1:9), is shining in his soul; and this light, if heeded, will guide his feet to the kingdom of God. {COL 385.1

God cares!

i have read a similar quote in DA regarding those who respond to the Holy Spirit, and have eternal life without theology. It is seldom acknowledged, i love both of these messages...