Ordination and the Theologically Liberal...

[Tom Wetmore]

While not specifically about WO, it is of relevance in the current debate in Adventism over WO -

How Seminaries and the Ordiantion Process Leave Theologically Liberal Chrisitans Behind

[olger]

It will be interesting to watch the liberals who grow misty-eyed over WO (ahem) find themselves marginalized in their liberalism because of WO.

[Tom Wetmore]

Interesting? What do you think will be the long term effects of such intolerance and marginalizing of those pastors? Do you think it is a good thing to create a climate within the church of intolerance and marginalizing of those that have different opinions and views or any intellectual exploration of traditional values and beliefs? That a climate of anti-intellectualism is healthy within the Church? What do you see as the long term effects of those trends?

[debbym]

Quote:

It will be interesting to watch the liberals who grow misty-eyed over WO (ahem) find themselves marginalized in their liberalism because of WO.

i hope you don't mind helping me on this,

but what are your definitions of liberal, and conservative.

these are not biblical terms.

is it simple like conservative=holy, and liberal=unholy?

is it black and white thinking?

i don't have education and really need help with this.

i think like, everyone who turns to God, will live for his glory.

not everyone who says they have turned to God have actually done so.

i do believe we growing over time in understanding. God is teaching us, just as he taught his disciples. yes they walked with him, but no they still didn't understand a lot of things when we has walking with them. they didn't understand he was going to die for their sins to save them. This did not mean they didn't know him and love him.

so even though we walk with God doesn't mean we understand everything. Growing in understanding, is something we share with the disciples.

If i receive my strength and power from God, do i really require a male leader on earth? for that to be so? will there be a deep deficiency and will i be marginalized? and incapacitated somehow? if so i really want to explore this.

in isaiah 45 i read 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength

cursed is the man who makes flesh his arm.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

i hope you don't mind helping me on this,

but what are your definitions of liberal, and conservative.

these are not biblical terms.

is it simple like conservative=holy, and liberal=unholy?

is it black and white thinking?

i don't have education and really need help with this.

i think like, everyone who turns to God, will live for his glory.

not everyone who says they have turned to God have actually done so.

Great questions and commentary, Deb - I hope you don't mind me putting in my 2 bits ...

I have a hard time defining liberal and conservative here, as well. To me they are relative terms. many on CA consider me a raving liberal. Yet, I am considered to be one of the most conservative people at my church.

I am strongly in favor of WO - does that make me a liberal?

I strongly believe in EGW's prophetic gift - does that make me a conservative?

I do not believe that 100% of everything EGW ever wrote down is 100% true; nor is it all her original thought. Does that make me a liberal and a hypocrite?

I believe that God created all that is seen and unseen in the heavens and the earth. Does that make me a conservative?

I do not believe that God created everything in six 24-hour periods. Does that make me a pseudo-Christian athiest liberal?

I believe in climate change; but I don't believe it is primarily man-made. Does that make me a liberal or a conservative?

[Woody]

Quote:

i hope you don't mind helping me on this,

but what are your definitions of liberal, and conservative.

these are not biblical terms.

is it simple like conservative=holy, and liberal=unholy?

is it black and white thinking?

i don't have education and really need help with this.

i think like, everyone who turns to God, will live for his glory.

not everyone who says they have turned to God have actually done so.

Great questions and commentary, Deb - I hope you don't mind me putting in my 2 bits ...

I have a hard time defining liberal and conservative here, as well. To me they are relative terms. many on CA consider me a raving liberal. Yet, I am considered to be one of the most conservative people at my church.

I am strongly in favor of WO - does that make me a liberal?

I strongly believe in EGW's prophetic gift - does that make me a conservative?

I do not believe that 100% of everything EGW ever wrote down is 100% true; nor is it all her original thought. Does that make me a liberal and a hypocrite?

I believe that God created all that is seen and unseen in the heavens and the earth. Does that make me a conservative?

I do not believe that God created everything in six 24-hour periods. Does that make me a pseudo-Christian athiest liberal?

I believe in climate change; but I don't believe it is primarily man-made. Does that make me a liberal or a conservative?

A thumbs up to each of you Deb and Mo

[Tom Wetmore]

It will be interesting to watch the liberals who grow misty-eyed over WO (ahem) find themselves marginalized in their liberalism because of WO.

An additional thought Ger, what if it goes the other way? WIll you be OK if the anti-WO pastors and leaders become marginalized?

[Woody]

Rather than divide the church and cause division by allowing un-Biblical practices regarding ordination - I would prefer seeing NO ordinations at all.

[olger]

The words of apostle Paul on this issue:

"For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you — if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination" (Titus 1:5-6).

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

It will be interesting to watch the liberals who grow misty-eyed over WO (ahem) find themselves marginalized in their liberalism because of WO.

An additional thought Ger, what if it goes the other way? WIll you be OK if the anti-WO pastors and leaders become marginalized?

Hi Tom,

Two points:

I am not in favor of marginalization of brothers and sisters in the church.

I am pleased with the Biblical role distinctions that God has set up for the church, and find that both men and women are blessed when each gratefully accepts their unique role. Each have a part to play, the eyes need the liver etc...

Many blessings,

G

[Tom Wetmore]

But you sort sounded a bit gleeful, if not slightly hopeful, at the prospect of the marginalizing of those so-called "liberals" and supporters of WO. It was as if you were anticipating that WO will never be approved in the Adventist Church and expect that with a firm thus sayeth the GC against it, that those in support of WO will be, or should be pushed out.

Again, how will you deal with it if your hope and expectation is dashed, and WO is approved, if not world-wide, at least for those areas of the world that are ready and accepting of it, such as NAD, SPD, TED, EUD...

[Tom Wetmore]

Interesting? What do you think will be the long term effects of such intolerance and marginalizing of those pastors? Do you think it is a good thing to create a climate within the church of intolerance and marginalizing of those that have different opinions and views or any intellectual exploration of traditional values and beliefs? That a climate of anti-intellectualism is healthy within the Church? What do you see as the long term effects of those trends?

Now, how about responding to the rest of my questions?

[phkrause]

Quote:

It will be interesting to watch the liberals who grow misty-eyed over WO (ahem) find themselves marginalized in their liberalism because of WO.

i hope you don't mind helping me on this,

but what are your definitions of liberal, and conservative.

these are not biblical terms.

is it simple like conservative=holy, and liberal=unholy?

is it black and white thinking?

i don't have education and really need help with this.

i think like, everyone who turns to God, will live for his glory.

not everyone who says they have turned to God have actually done so.

i do believe we growing over time in understanding. God is teaching us, just as he taught his disciples. yes they walked with him, but no they still didn't understand a lot of things when we has walking with them. they didn't understand he was going to die for their sins to save them. This did not mean they didn't know him and love him.

so even though we walk with God doesn't mean we understand everything. Growing in understanding, is something we share with the disciples.

If i receive my strength and power from God, do i really require a male leader on earth? for that to be so? will there be a deep deficiency and will i be marginalized? and incapacitated somehow? if so i really want to explore this.

in isaiah 45 i read 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength

cursed is the man who makes flesh his arm.

Exactly, this lib and con business is sad.

[Guest]

Two points:

I am not in favor of marginalization of brothers and sisters in the church.

I am pleased with the Biblical role distinctions that God has set up for the church, and find that both men and women are blessed when each gratefully accepts their unique role. Each have a part to play, the eyes need the liver etc...

Many blessings,

G

[Woody]

Quote:

is it simple like conservative=holy, and liberal=unholy?

Unfortunately some have made it out to be this way.

[debbym]

Quote:

Two points:

I am not in favor of marginalization of brothers and sisters in the church.

I am pleased with the Biblical role distinctions that God has set up for the church, and find that both men and women are blessed when each gratefully accepts their unique role. Each have a part to play, the eyes need the liver etc...

i am very grateful that a man does not lose his manhood when he changes a diaper, or washes the dishes or folds laundry, and that a women does not become a man when she changes a tire, carries out the garbage or stands at the pulpit.

men and women are fearfully and wonderfully made.

[thx4mercy]

Quote:

Two points:

I am not in favor of marginalization of brothers and sisters in the church.

I am pleased with the Biblical role distinctions that God has set up for the church, and find that both men and women are blessed when each gratefully accepts their unique role. Each have a part to play, the eyes need the liver etc...

i am very grateful that a man does not lose his manhood when he changes a diaper, or washes the dishes or folds laundry, and that a women does not become a man when she changes a tire, carries out the garbage or stands at the pulpit.

men and women are fearfully and wonderfully made.

Debbym, I wasn't sure if you were disagreeing with the other quote. And are you equating "stands at the pulpit" with being the actual pastor of a church? Because I don't think that any of the anti-WO people are thinking that a woman shouldn't be allowed to preach a sermon.

[debbym]

Quote:

Debbym, I wasn't sure if you were disagreeing with the other quote. And are you equating "stands at the pulpit" with being the actual pastor of a church? Because I don't think that any of the anti-WO people are thinking that a woman shouldn't be allowed to preach a sermon.

i was commenting to the sense i found in the post that men and women have very specific gender roles, indicating performing certain tasks.

yet i see men and women as remaining in their gender while performing a variety of tasks. I do not see a man or a woman changing in their role of man or woman by assuming a variety of tasks.

when you make a specific task gender specific, you are in part defining that gender by that task.

i think i understand the anti WO people are defining gender and gender role by assigning specific tasks to them. i think this is artificial. i am considering that it is assigning authority that belongs to God alone.

God gave women to be women and men to be men, by his authority. The anti-Wo argument seems to be that outside of the marriage relationship, males have authority, divinely appointed authority. Now they may believe this is across the board, or just in the church i am not sure. i do not see the arguments for this male authority in civil government, or schools, or businesses. if they believe this then they would be desperate that the church is the final frontier for male authority in society.

i certainly do not want to diminish any man's manhood or diminish any woman's womanhood. and i do believe men need to be respected and their leadership respected in the Lord. We absolutely need Godly leadership. I am considering that women through the same Holy Spirit may also exercise Godly leadership which should also be respected in the Lord.

I am open to learn.

[Tom Wetmore]

Debbym, I wasn't sure if you were disagreeing with the other quote. And are you equating "stands at the pulpit" with being the actual pastor of a church? Because I don't think that any of the anti-WO people are thinking that a woman shouldn't be allowed to preach a sermon.

Not true. Many do. And for those claiming Biblical authority for their anti-WO position that are OK with a woman, ordained or not, standing in the pulpit to speak, seem to have selectively overlooked or explained away the several statements by Paul that women should remain silent in church and that he did not permit a woman to teach men. At least those opposed to women preaching/teaching are being consistent. Although they do have to overlook the fact that EGW preached more than 10,000 sermons in her lifetime. She was obviously a woman that did not remain silent in church or avoid teaching men.

[Johann]

Rather than divide the church and cause division by allowing un-Biblical practices regarding ordination - I would prefer seeing NO ordinations at all.

And this is what is happening in Denmark right now. All ordinations are suspended within the Danish Union for now while the committees are re-defining Biblical ordination, rather than the Roman Catholic type ordination so many consservatives are defending these days.