Confidence level in Chiropractors

[Stan]

Thoughts?

[Woody]

I've used them for years on a regular basis.

They help me a great deal.

But like most professionals their skills vary greatly.

And I usually find I have to train them first.

[Igakusei]

A couple good videos about Chiropractic. Short version is that there's a huge spectrum of practice and I don't think it's reasonable to lump them all into any of the categories in the OP.

[joeb]

I've been to good chiropractors and lousy chiropractors. Sometimes they exist within the same practice. The good ones are really good, and the bad ones are really bad, as the good ones can really help you, and the bad ones can really injure you.

The same goes for MD's.

I have found though that chiropractors have a knowledge of the body's structural support system that MD's don't seem to have. I've had chiropractors find out what caused my pain on the very first visit when I'd spent several thousand dollars with MD's and they were telling me my pain was all in my head.

[Igakusei]

I'm not done with my medical education yet joeb, but what we've been taught so far is to take patient's perceptions of pain at face value, unless we have reason to think they're drug-seeking. Pain is subjective, if you say you're experiencing it then you're experiencing it and we should do something about it.

Have most of the doctors that have done this to you been older?

As far as your pain, yeah… unless you're an orthopedic surgeon we don't spend nearly as much time on spinal anatomy as we probably should. Perhaps you'll have better luck with a DO instead of an MD? On the other hand, my stepdad was going to a chiropractor for chest pain for several months, and the guy kept telling him it was due to spinal subluxations and 'fixing' it there. Then he had a massive heart attack, because the pain was actually unstable angina. So there's two sides to that coin.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

People usually think of chiropractors only having to do with spinal manipulation, but they are trained in much more than that.

When my mother had pneumonia in the early 1950's, she was given penicillin by her MD. After several weeks, it hadn't helped at all and the physician told her there was nothing else he could do for her. Mom finally went to a chiropractor she'd seen for another problem. He used moist heat packs on her chest and back areas several times, and she got well..

[Igakusei]

People usually think of chiropractors only having to do with spinal manipulation, but they are trained in much more than that.

When my mother had pneumonia in the early 1950's, she was given penicillin by her MD. After several weeks, it hadn't helped at all and the physician told her there was nothing else he could do for her. Mom finally went to a chiropractor she'd seen for another problem. He used moist heat packs on her chest and back areas several times, and she got well..

This one is so old it has a latin name.

This one is a little more specific.

[Gail]

If I went to a chiropractor I would be afraid that I would never stop going.

I do agree that they know about alignment of bones. A house out of alignment will crack and break in time, I think the same will happen to a spine. That just makes logical sense. But I've seen too many people that keep on going to a chiropractor but don't ever get better and I wonder why.

Personally I would try physio first.

[joeb]

I'm not done with my medical education yet joeb, but what we've been taught so far is to take patient's perceptions of pain at face value, unless we have reason to think they're drug-seeking. Pain is subjective, if you say you're experiencing it then you're experiencing it and we should do something about it.

Have most of the doctors that have done this to you been older?

As far as your pain, yeah… unless you're an orthopedic surgeon we don't spend nearly as much time on spinal anatomy as we probably should. Perhaps you'll have better luck with a DO instead of an MD? On the other hand, my stepdad was going to a chiropractor for chest pain for several months, and the guy kept telling him it was due to spinal subluxations and 'fixing' it there. Then he had a massive heart attack, because the pain was actually unstable angina. So there's two sides to that coin.

One of the problem with MD's is that they always take X-Rays of the spine with the patient lying down. How foolish. If there are structural support problems they show up when you put a load on the structure, not when you unload it. Even a small amount of troubleshooting skills will lead a person to that conclusion, however, MD's don't seem to get it.

This is the first thing the chiropractor did for me. He found the problem immediately. I have badly slipped disc. When I finally found a good orthopedic surgeon his first question, upon viewing that x-ray, was, how long have your legs been numb. They hadn't been but my lower back pain had been intense, and still is. The OS said it was 50/50 whether or not they could do anything for me, or I'd come out worse off than I am now, so I've never had the surgery. But, I'm now getting sciatica pains in my right leg and ridiculopathy in both of my arms so I may have to end up undergoing some kind of surgery. Now is 10 years later.....

The MD's ages? From mid 30's to mid 40's. I don't buy the "old doctors" argument though. The best MD I ever went to was in his mid 80's when he was my doctor. Dr. Forrest Bump. He was a real character, and a really good doctor.

[Woody]

Quote:

But I've seen too many people that keep on going to a chiropractor but don't ever get better and I wonder why.

It's because they have a chronic disease with no cure but the Chiropractor can provide palliative care.

[Igakusei]

One of the problem with MD's is that they always take X-Rays of the spine with the patient lying down. How foolish. If there are structural support problems they show up when you put a load on the structure, not when you unload it. Even a small amount of troubleshooting skills will lead a person to that conclusion, however, MD's don't seem to get it.

This is the first thing the chiropractor did for me. He found the problem immediately. I have badly slipped disc. When I finally found a good orthopedic surgeon his first question, upon viewing that x-ray, was, how long have your legs been numb. They hadn't been but my lower back pain had been intense, and still is. The OS said it was 50/50 whether or not they could do anything for me, or I'd come out worse off than I am now, so I've never had the surgery. But, I'm now getting sciatica pains in my right leg and ridiculopathy in both of my arms so I may have to end up undergoing some kind of surgery. Now is 10 years later.....

The MD's ages? From mid 30's to mid 40's. I don't buy the "old doctors" argument though. The best MD I ever went to was in his mid 80's when he was my doctor. Dr. Forrest Bump. He was a real character, and a really good doctor.

[Gordon1]

...keep on going to a chiropractor

but don't ever get better...

Case closed.

Thank you Gail, please teach the next class.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gail

...keep on going to a chiropractor

but don't ever get better...

Case closed.

Thank you Gail, please teach the next class.

Not so fast. This is exactly my situation. I have a Chronic condition that will never get better. I go to the Chiropractor to cope. I get pain relief however short lived and can therefore go on with life. Constant pain is most difficult to endure. Even just a slight amount of relief can keep someone going.

[joeb]

"MDs always take x-rays lying down?" Did your chiro tell you that? As far as I'm aware spinal x-rays are often taken laying down in order to minimize the effects of postural variability between patients, but obviously if a physician is looking for loading/support problems (scoliosis, etc.), then they're going to have you do it standing up. If yours didn't, then that's a problem with them more than a problem with "MDs." But yeah, those foolish MDs who don't know anything.

[Igakusei]

"reliably"

[Gail]

Not so fast. This is exactly my situation. I have a Chronic condition that will never get better. I go to the Chiropractor to cope. I get pain relief however short lived and can therefore go on with life. Constant pain is most difficult to endure. Even just a slight amount of relief can keep someone going.

And that is valuable information- thanks for that input.

My hubby has what he thinks is his last vertebra has slipped from its position upon the coccyx, causing him much pain, loss of mobility and numbness in his legs. He is becoming discouraged, because he has always been pretty buff (he worked as a fitness instructor) and very active.

So far the doctor has not found anything to effectively relieve his pain. He has had one appointment with an acupuncturist but was not happy with him, and one now with a chiropractor, who he thinks might prove helpful. We will see.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

People usually think of chiropractors only having to do with spinal manipulation, but they are trained in much more than that.

When my mother had pneumonia in the early 1950's, she was given penicillin by her MD. After several weeks, it hadn't helped at all and the physician told her there was nothing else he could do for her. Mom finally went to a chiropractor she'd seen for another problem. He used moist heat packs on her chest and back areas several times, and she got well..

This one is so old it has a latin name.

This one is a little more specific.

O.o You can think what you will. The penicillin regimen did not help. There was ample time between the end of the regimen and evidence of improvement, and that did not happen. Your post hoc ergo propter hoc isn't a valid argument in this situation.

Penicillin is not a panacea.

And by the way, I worked in the medical field as a CT tech, Radiology Tech, and Mammographer for years. I know my topic here.

[Igakusei]

I wasn't trying to imply that the penicillin probably did work, that wasn't my point. Lots of pneumonia bugs don't respond to penicillin, so no big surprise there.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Not so fast. This is exactly my situation. I have a Chronic condition that will never get better. I go to the Chiropractor to cope. I get pain relief however short lived and can therefore go on with life. Constant pain is most difficult to endure. Even just a slight amount of relief can keep someone going.

And that is valuable information- thanks for that input.

My hubby has what he thinks is his last vertebra has slipped from its position upon the coccyx, causing him much pain, loss of mobility and numbness in his legs. He is becoming discouraged, because he has always been pretty buff (he worked as a fitness instructor) and very active.

So far the doctor has not found anything to effectively relieve his pain. He has had one appointment with an acupuncturist but was not happy with him, and one now with a chiropractor, who he thinks might prove helpful. We will see.

PRaying for 'hubby'.

[Gail]

Much appreciated, Woody

[phkrause]

Have gone to a Chiropractor for many years, but not the last 3+ years, to expensive at the moment. I have no problem recommending them to anyone. They have kept many a athlete going, instead of having to retire at an early age, they went on to continue there career.

[joeb]

"reliably"

I know it seems like I'm picking on you, but I'm not. Not really. The "reliability" of seeing slipped discs has a lot to do with the orientation of the person being xrayed. Not a single MD found the problem. They couldn't see it with me in a horizontal position.

I'm just really frustrated with MD's. The stuff they've done to both my wife and I over the years really sucks. We've had much better results going to DO's, chiropractors, etc... than to MD's. That's not saying all the MD's we've seen have been bad. There's two we've gone to that have been good. The rest? Not very good at all. Lots of blaming the patient for symptoms they can't diagnose/treat.

[JoeMo]

I participate in an integrated medical practice that has an MD, a DO, a chiropractor, acupuncturist, a massage therpaist, and a nutritionist. No competition; just cooperation. For colds, flu, cancer, and heart disease,I go to the MD or DO. For joint pain, I go the the DO or the cihro; for diabetes, I go to the nutritionist. They all help me in their fields of expertise. I wouldn't go to a chiropractor for chemotherapy; nor would I go to an MD for a spinal manipulation.

In my personal experience over the past 5 years, chiropractors have solved more of my health complaints than any other type of doctor.

[joeb]

I participate in an integrated medical practice that has an MD, a DO, a chiropractor, acupuncturist, a massage therpaist, and a nutritionist. No competition; just cooperation. For colds, flu, cancer, and heart disease,I go to the MD or DO. For joint pain, I go the the DO or the cihro; for diabetes, I go to the nutritionist. They all help me in their fields of expertise. I wouldn't go to a chiropractor for chemotherapy; nor would I go to an MD for a spinal manipulation.

In my personal experience over the past 5 years, chiropractors have solved more of my health complaints than any other type of doctor.

I went to a DO for years for everything from whiplash to headaches to checkups to the flu. I would rate him as probably the single best medical practioner I've ever gone to.

I could go to him with a literally blinding headache and he'd manipulate my neck and spine and the headache would be gone in minutes. He's the only doc I ever went to who could help my headaches without drugs.

[Igakusei]

Quote:

I know it seems like I'm picking on you, but I'm not. Not really. The "reliability" of seeing slipped discs has a lot to do with the orientation of the person being xrayed. Not a single MD found the problem. They couldn't see it with me in a horizontal position.

I'm just really frustrated with MD's. The stuff they've done to both my wife and I over the years really sucks. We've had much better results going to DO's, chiropractors, etc... than to MD's. That's not saying all the MD's we've seen have been bad. There's two we've gone to that have been good. The rest? Not very good at all. Lots of blaming the patient for symptoms they can't diagnose/treat.

I'm sorry you've had such poor experiences. I genuinely believe in science-based-medicine (which certainly includes most DOs), and I've met some good chiropractors over the years that have understood both the benefits and limits of their profession.

As I've said earlier pain can be a very subjective thing, and part of what that means is that we can't always nail down what's causing it or why some things work on some people and not on others. Sometimes it literally is "in your head," but that doesn't make it any less real to the patient. If you find something that works for you, I'll support it.

So honestly I have nothing against people going to chiropractors or acupuncturists, or doing reiki, or whatever else they discover works, but I'm nervous about people who advocate an overly-simplfied understanding of human disease ("it's all due to toxins!" or "it's all due to spinal subluxations!" or "it's all due to acid-base imbalances!" or "it's all due to interruptions in your flow of Chi!") because when people have back pain due to something like heart disease or cancer, someone with a one-dimensional understanding of human disease has a much smaller toolkit than someone who understands that there are many, many different ways for things to go wrong. Such as just happened to my stepdad, where for several months his chiropractor repeatedly adjusted his back for pain and never thought to refer him to a cardiologist, despite him displaying fairly classic warning signs for heart disease that most first-year medical students would recognize.