Katrina - Punishment From God

September 1, 2005

'The terrorist Katrina' is a soldier of Allah'

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When the satellite channels reported on the scope of the terrifying destruction in America [caused by] this wind, I was reminded of the words of [Prophet Muhammad]: 'The wind sends torment to one group of people, and sends mercy to others.' I do not think — and only Allah [really] knows — that this wind, which completely wiped out American cities in these days, is a wind of mercy and blessing. It is almost certain that this is a wind of torment and evil that Allah has sent to this American empire.

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Oh honored gentlemen, I began to read about these winds, and I was surprised to discover that the American websites that are translated [into Arabic] are talking about the fact that that the storm Katrina is the fifth equatorial storm to strike Florida this year... and that a large part of the U.S. is subject every year to many storms that extract [a price of] dead, and completely destroy property. I said, Allah be praised, until when will these successive catastrophes strike them?

"But before I went to sleep, I opened the Koran and began to read in Surat Al-R'ad ['The Thunder' chapter], and stopped at these words [of Allah]: 'The disaster will keep striking the unbelievers for what they have done, or it will strike areas close to their territory, until the promise of Allah comes to pass, for, verily, Allah will not fail in His promise.' [Koran 13:31].

September 1, 2005

Well, the Christian fundamentalists are saying it, so it's not so surprising the Muslims are too...

September 2, 2005

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Bravus said:

Well, the Christian fundamentalists are saying it, so it's not so surprising the Muslims are too...

Bravus,

You got that right!

Naomi

September 2, 2005

And to think,

They are both wrong!

September 2, 2005

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Neil D said:

And to think,

They are both wrong!

Again, agreed! Amazing isn't it.

~~~

Is it human nature to want to blame anything/everything on some Divine power?

Naomi

September 2, 2005

Yeah, some fundamentalist Christian group called "Repent America" said this was a punishment for some big gay event that was to happen this week in New Orleans.

The thought that occurred to me is that God actually showed the gays mercy by timing the hurricane to hit the city before they actually arrived there. If, as Repent America has spun it, this was God executing divine judgment against homosexuals, His timing was off a bit as He missed a direct hit right in the middle of that gay event. Also, His aim is a bit off as the worst part of the storm damage was actually in Mississippi where the center of the storm actually hit. Maybe His divine judgment was against gambling in Biloxi… If so does that mean that He sees gambling as worse than homosexual sin? If God’s purpose was to disrupt an event reveling in sexual sin, what about the many other events of more benign purpose or even Christian organizations having meetings there over the next few months? Or more to the point, if that was God’s purpose to execute judgment, why are the majority of the hardest hit from seemingly innocent smaller communities far from the sin and decadence of New Orleans, particularly the very poor, or the elderly in the retirement communities on the Gulf coast? (On that perspective one might, with more credibility, suggest that a force and power on this earth far from a divine one was at work in this disaster, as well as SE Asia destroying thousands of innocent lives…) Or was the divine target the oil and gas industry that has taken to price gouging of late?

It amazes me that some will quickly attribute divine purposes that directly correspond to their own favorite sin bashing hobby horse. I think the real Divine perspective is somewhere else entirely. I recall Phillip Yancey’s editorial after 9/11 that addressed the question, “Where is God in all this mess?”, particularly in light of certain fundamentalists at that time declaring that that disaster was a divine act of judgment against the sins of NY. His point, which I subscribe to as well, was that the hand of God was to be seen in the many helping hands and acts of compassion and caring that followed after the disaster and not in the disaster itself. So it is in New Orleans, Biloxi and throughout that region. God’s call is to clothe the naked, feed the hungry, comfort the sorrowing, etc. His judgment will be to recognize those who have answered that call as Jesus so clearly said in Matthew 25.

Tom

September 2, 2005

Does anyone deny that New Orleans was the most wicked city in America, and that the city government officially tolerated and embraced it? Calvary shows us how the intimate knowledge of our sin makes God feel. Do we really expect God to endure the burden of this forever? America has suffered many disasters. But this is the first time we have had to abandon a major city, at least for months, and possibly for years.

Is there no cause and effect anyone can see between the present lawlessness, and the past practice of police and government of turning a blind eye to public lewdness? What went on in the past encouraged people to think that lawful, orderly behavior matters little. So it was all the easier for them to break into gun stores and turn the huddled masses of survivors in New Orleans into an Old West ruled by the strongest, and where armed criminals even fired on helicopters rescuing people.

We should not look down on the people of New Orleans and deem them unworthy to be helped. We have an obligation, if we would be on God's side, to minimize the evil and ameliorate the consequences of evil. But let us not fail to learn the lessons that should be learned.

Most of us are eager to reject extremism. But let us not be so quick to do this, that we wind up denying faith, as well. To some people, the belief that God actually exists and is an active part of our reality is considered extremism. We have no business being among those who think this way.

September 2, 2005

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In accidents and calamities by land and by sea, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. . . .

Crisis of the Ages:In Heavenly Places, page 342, paragraph 3

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In fires, in floods, in earthquakes, in the fury of the great deep, in calamities by sea and by land, the warning is given that God's Spirit will not always strive with men.--3MR 315 (1897).

Signs of Christ's Soon Return :Last Day Events, page 26, paragraph 2

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I am bidden to declare the message that cities full of transgression, and sinful in the extreme, will be destroyed by earthquakes, by fire, by flood.--Ev 27 (April 27, 1906).

The Cities:Last Day Events, page 115, paragraph 2

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The great I AM is vindicating his law. He is speaking to those who make it void in storms, in floods, in tempests, in earthquakes, in perils by land and by sea. Now is the time for his people to show themselves true to principle.

The Coming Crisis :The Watchman, December 25, 1906, paragraph 5

September 2, 2005

Quote:

Does anyone deny that New Orleans was the most wicked city in America, and that the city government officially tolerated and embraced it?

I don't know that it's more wicked than others I could name and will not (I'm not into pointing fingers).

Reminds me of the story in Luke where people were asking Jesus about some people who died in a tragedy and Jesus said, Do you think these people were greater sinners than anyone else in Galilee? No, and if the rest of you don't take note and repent, the same will happen to you. (Michelle Paraphrase)

The point is that we are NOT to look at disasters like this one or the tsunami last year and say, Oh, those places had all these hideous sins (mostly sexual, interestingly enough), so God wiped them off the face of the earth--wonder who he's gonna get next? No, we are to look at them and be reminded that we ourselves must repent and be right with God.

M

September 3, 2005

Quote:

Does anyone deny that New Orleans was the most wicked city in America

Yes

Give me ANY OBJECTIVE MEASURE of a city's evilness

For instance:

Do you have to divide by the number of inhabitants?

How do you compare greed and hypocrisy against fornication?

Is one murder = 1 rape, or 20?

/Bevin

September 3, 2005

Quote:

Does anyone deny that New Orleans was the most wicked city in America, and that the city government officially tolerated and embraced it?

Most wicked??? Well, I guess that depends upon someone's standard, eh? If we used God's standard, what makes New Orleans more wicked than say...New York City? Or LA? Or how about Houston? Or the city that you live in? It had Dixie Land Jazz...Does that make it wicked?

Quote:

Calvary shows us how the intimate knowledge of our sin makes God feel. Do we really expect God to endure the burden of this forever?

I guess I am a bit dense....'cus I don't know how God feels about sin....Oh, don't get me wrong, I know that sin is bad, but ...what is it that makes sin a 'burden to bear'? If God is all powerful, then you think that He can bear anything any length of time, don'tcha think? 'Cus if He can't bear it, then He ain't all powerful. ....

September 3, 2005

We know these are the works of Satan - no doubt. However we also know from the story of Job that God does lift His hand of protection and let Satan do such things. So is it possible that God lifted His hand and let New Orleans be destroyed? I will concede that it is possible.

I tend to believe that natural disasters are simply part of living on a sinful planet. Will they get worse as time grows short? We are told they will. Does God have His sights on certain cities to allow Satan to destroy first? Well, according to Sister White, San Francisco suffered God's punishment.

September 3, 2005

Interesting note, Sister White said God would visit His judgement on San Francisco before the great earthquake. That is a lot different than say God punished the city after it happened.

Of course I am not trying to claim New Orleans suffered the wrath of God. Maybe so, maybe not. But San Francisco did.

September 3, 2005

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CoAspen said:

<img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Does anyone deny that New Orleans was the most wicked city in America, and that the city government officially tolerated and embraced it?

Talk about extremism! Just how did you go about composeing your poll for finding the most wicked city in America? What were the criteria, what was your factual support,... etc,...etc? If God were actually doing the punishing right now, you and I would be dead, period!

CoAspen,

Couldn't agree more. There are no degrees of sin; sin is sin.

Naomi

September 3, 2005

Quote:

Naomi said:

Quote:

Neil D said:

And to think,

They are both wrong!

Again, agreed! Amazing isn't it.

Naomi

Actually, now that I have time to respond to your answer,Naomi, it is stupidity. It is stupidity that causes religion [of any persuasion] to answer this way to the general public. Religion , when it acts this way, only serves to inflame and wound. Where is the mercy, the healing influence of religion in times of crisis? That is the very legitament reason that religion [of any persuasion] exists today.

Religion exists because this world doesn't make sense to our order of things. Religion exists because religion bring mercy to our understanding of the world. Religion exists because this world is a connudrum of pleasure and pain.

But when religion takes advantage of pain to condemn others, it violates it's very existance.

That is why we have atheists...That is why we have denominations. That is why we have inflamed hatred among ourselves. Religion is violating it's very existance and forbids mercy to all....regardless of persuasion.

Our world, battered by all the previous generations who have violated mercy and common sense and the common good, needs religion [at the very least, the mercy side of religion's existance] to help us get thru these bad times.

Well, that's my perspective for today....Take it for what's it's worth....

September 3, 2005

I agree that this is not the time to call this the condemnation of God. This is the time to rescue the hurting and help a community find jobs and shelter. However after that has been done. I think it foolish not to look at such things and ask if God doesn't have a message for us.

September 3, 2005

Quote:

I think it foolish not to look at such things and ask if God doesn't have a message for us.

Dontcha think that you would be second guessing God?

I do.

Cuz if God works in disasters like this, then doesn't God work in mercy? And if God works in mercy, doesn't He work in Logic? And if God works in logic, doesn't He work in "shouldas" and "couldas"? [AS in Shoulda we have done this? Coulda we have done that?]

No, we beat ourselves to a pulp in this way. It is best to do what we think best and if God want's a better way done, then He is gonna have to make Hisself known and make His will known to all. As it is, we will have to wait and see what He wants done.

September 3, 2005

Read the book of Job. Satan cuases disasters and God allows him to do so. Also read what Ellen White wrote about San Francisco.

It isn't so much about second-guessing God. It is about seeing the signs of the times.

September 3, 2005

As I've noted elsewhere, the problem with wondering if God has a message for us is that we're far too willing to project our own pet messages onto the event: and the event itself is not self-interpreting. So was his message about abortion, homosexuality or America's treatment of Arabs and support of Israel? All these have been claimed by various people. Who decides?

September 3, 2005

God is the judge, and makes manifest His judgment.

Neil, Calvary shows us how God feels about sin, because when His Son was made to be sin for us, He had to withdraw His presence and separate from Him. What Christ did on the Cross was God suffering death within Himself rather than embrance sin.

Remember, as I have pointed out before, God sustains our every breath. "In Him we live and move and have our being." (Acts 17:28). This means God, whose nature is perfectly pure and holy, is made to know intimately the experience of all our evil from the inside out. He knows what it was like to be the victim killed in Auschwitz, and He knows what it was like to be the Nazi prison guard casting people into the ovens. How long must God bear with our sinfulness? It torments Him, like Calvary continually. As Ellen G. White said:

Quote:

The cross is a revelation to our dull senses of the pain that, from its very inception, sin has brought to the heart of God. Every departure from the right, every deed of cruelty, every failure of humanity to reach His ideal, brings grief to Him. When there came upon Israel the calamities that were the sure result of separation from God,--subjugation by their enemies, cruelty, and death, --it is said that "His soul was grieved for the misery of Israel." "In all their affliction He was afflicted: . . . and He bare them, and carried them all the days of old." Judges 10:16; Isaiah 63:9. (

Education,

p. 263)

I suspect that some people are reluctant to see spiritual things as actually being real. Possibly this is the same people among us who insist on "compartmentalizing," separating faith into one compartment, and science into another. But spiritual reality is the ultimate reality, the one that determines all our common everyday experience. Instead of trying to deny it every time spiritual reality intrudes itself into our lives, we need to become intelligent concerning its principles, and learn the lessons it would teach.

September 3, 2005

Question: Did God destroy any cities out of wrath, for sin in the New Testiment?

September 3, 2005

Does God change?

September 3, 2005

Ron,

As I understand what you are saying is that God is being tormented by our deeds of sin thru our living in sin.

There are a couple of problems with this scenerio...

1] God ain't doing anything to change us, nor the sin that is in us that causes us to sin.

2] If God is judge and jury, then the picture painted is one of a God of wrath, not a God of mercy. IOWs, God's personality is one of judgement, aka "out to get you".

3] If God is infinate, as we have said, then it matters not when we stop sinning, as God will still bear with our sin from the past and thru the future.

Please correct me if I misunderstood.

As I understand the concepts that you are espousing, you are using old testment language to paint a picture of God that has other baggage attached with it. It is time to update your understanding of God.

Is he a God of wrath or a God who feels as we feel when things go wrong? Is He someone who identifys with our feelings or Someone who looks to destroy sin and anything attached to it? Is He a people Person or an object Person? Is He more interested in people or is He interested in Sin?

September 4, 2005

Neil, what do you mean "God ain't doing anything to change us...." Maybe you have been ignoring His efforts to change you, but I for one recognize both my need to change and the efforts God is indeed making to effect the needed changes.

Second, Neil, no one said God is judge and jury. Heaven does not operate on our Roman judicial model. God is Judge, as well as Advocate for the Accused, as in the ancient Hebrew System. The whole universe is witness to the justice of His judgments, and the redeemed of earth will have the privilege of reviewing all His judgments during the millenium. But no one makes God's judgments for Him.

Third Neil, I must point out the truly horrible attitude revealed in your statement: "If God is infinate, as we have said, then it matters not when we stop sinning, as God will still bear with our sin from the past and thru the future." Do you really think it is right to presume upon God to such an extent as to say we expect Him to go on suffering with our sins forever and ever? It pains God to allow sin to exist at all, expecially when He must sustain the lives moment by moment of all those who do iniquity, by continuing to allow them to have His Spirit of life within them. ("What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" -- 1 Cor. 6:19)

God only allows sinners to go on living as long as there is a chance they will repent, and as long as they do not pollute society so greatly that others will be greatly hindered in turning from evil. God does have His limits, as He has demonstrated clearly to all but the most willfully blind.

What it really boils down to is this: God DOES have a right to judge sin and sinners, and He does have a right to ACT according to that judgment. God had a right to destroy the entire world of men with the Flood. The Plan of Salvation, where God extends mercy to sinners and gives them a chance to repent, is something He does by His Benevolent Grace, and not because He has any obligation to.

Anyone who does not believe in a God who truly is Judge, does not really believe in God at all.

God does not save sinners simply by saying, "That's all right, we'll just let it go." Jesus did HAVE to die in our place, in order for us to have salvation offered to us.

September 4, 2005

CoAspen, do not confuse the actions of men with the judgments of God. It has been pointed out that most of the huddled masses suffering and waiting so long for rescue and evacuation were poor and black. But whose fault is that? Whose prejudice brought that about? We may compound the wrong by the wrong way we go about rescue and relocation of the displaced homeless; but everything is no more than what humans have brought on themselves, or done to each other.

City government and police refused to make any effort to uphold standards of public decency in the face of the grossest lewd behavior, which has been going on for years, and only steadily worsening. City government even has officially welcomed the blatant celebrations of sin, thereby pitting their human authority directly against the moral authority of God.

Numerous calls went out even in recent months to improve the levees, some of which were in dangerously poor condition, but city government ignored these calls and spent not a penny to upgrade the levees. Note that it was not Hurricane Katrina per se, which destroyed New Orleans, it was the two levees which broke and allowed the city to be flooded with waters from Lake Ponchartrain, that have made it necessary for New Orleans to be abandoned.

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