LifeHiscost Posted October 17, 2005 Posted October 17, 2005 Quote: cardw said: Well, trying to place any rational moral system in place to justify stoning a man for gathering wood qualifies, in my mind, for trying to make sense of nonsense. cardw [:"red"] "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." [/] Genesis 2:7 NKJV [:"red"] "You turn things around!Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay,That what is made would say to its maker, "He did not make me";Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding"? " [/] Isaiah 29:16 NASB [:"red"] "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." [/] 1 Corinthians 2:14 NKJV Ed, Quote: If you reject the Bible as evidence of what God would and would not do, then where else would you suggest we go? >>I'm quite open to exploring other possibilities.<< Re: >> << As a disciple of Christ, I wonder if that last thought would include exploring the avenues in which the Scriptures explicitly point at as contrary to God's counsel? Remember Saul's foray into talking to the spirits of the dead. [:"red"] "But there are some of you who do not believe " For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God." Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" [/] John 6:64-70 NASB Keep the faith! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted October 17, 2005 Posted October 17, 2005 Quote: raphael said: When is a myth not a myth? When its decided to be convincing to the point of the incapacity to doubt. When faith strengthens and destroys unbelief. When earths gone and heavens welcomed and all things are free of obscurity. I would love to add more but kind of weighed with body aches due to too many morning walks. Haleluyah, Raphael And I'd like to hear more common sense. Sorry about your aches and pains. [:"red"] "And He built His sanctuary like the heights,Like the earth which He has founded forever. " [/] Psalm 78:69 NASB Quote Lift Jesus up!!
there buster Posted October 17, 2005 Posted October 17, 2005 Quote: Well, trying to place any rational moral system in place to justify stoning a man for gathering wood qualifies, in my mind, for trying to make sense of nonsense. Yes, in your mind. . . which is where all this seems to be taking place. Quote: This assumes that we can predict what God is going to do based on some human understanding or that God can be contained within some type of human rational system. Quote: I happen to believe its childish to believe that words can contain the mind of God. Of course God cannot be "contained" in words or anything else. That's the definition of infinity. No one I know thinks God can be contained. That's a straw man. Quote: Not stoning the man across the street for gathering wood on Saturday is a very basic moral decision. To even debate it or justify it borders on lunacy. When taken out of context, almost any restriction looks crazy. Why should we prosecute one person for talking with another person? Why should a person be imprisoned for taking pieces of paper? Why should someone be penalized for typing numbers into a computer? Out of context, including historical context, all of these things sound innocent. But serious people realize that context alters meaning, even reversing it sometimes.Even 9YO's can understand these things. Please. Get serious. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell
there buster Posted October 17, 2005 Posted October 17, 2005 LHC, don't you understand that even God starts with people where they are? Don't be so quick to judge. You simply have no idea where I might go with this. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell
bevin Posted October 17, 2005 Posted October 17, 2005 The rationale for stoning sinners was/is easy... it is to stop (a) the god's getting angry and punishing the whole community, and ( the sinner from contaminating others. This argument is valid whenever we use it to stone others. It is invalidate whenever others use it to stone us. /Bevin Quote
there buster Posted October 17, 2005 Posted October 17, 2005 Well, that's almost half right. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell
cardw Posted October 18, 2005 Posted October 18, 2005 Quote: Yes, in your mind. . . which is where all this seems to be taking place. And I guess your ideas are not in your mind? The implication is that how you interpret the Bible is how God would interpret the Bible. Quote: Of course God cannot be "contained" in words or anything else. That's the definition of infinity. No one I know thinks God can be contained. That's a straw man. And yet it appears that you find the Bible so compelling that you believe there is a rational basis for stoning a man for gathering sticks. The last time I checked the Bible is composed of words. The implication is that the Bible is exactly as God meant it to be and no one can entertain the idea that much of it is simply the crazy ideas of men. I'm not sure that this is a straw man, but simply your own smoke and mirrors. Quote: When taken out of context, almost any restriction looks crazy. Why should we prosecute one person for talking with another person? Why should a person be imprisoned for taking pieces of paper? Why should someone be penalized for typing numbers into a computer? This really looks like smoke and mirrors. Lets look at the context. Quote: Numbers 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. I find nothing in the context that would suggest anything beyond stoning the man for gathering sticks on the Sabbath. The really crazy thing is if we are going to follow God's example and make a "life application" out of this story we come up with a pretty ridiculous system of punishment. Even if we are to consider what this man was doing as wrong, the death penalty is way out of bounds for the infraction. And then asking the community to participate in the violence seems even more abusive. Is God using fear or love? What types of ideas would God be conditioning? How safe would people feel around this god? To me this god seems to be behaving at the level of a 5 year old or much like the Queen of Hearts in Alice in Wonderland, "Off with their heads!" Quote: But serious people realize that context alters meaning, even reversing it sometimes.Even 9YO's can understand these things. Please. Get serious. I am very serious. I have come to believe that holding the Bible to this kind of authority produces crazy people who try and carry out the actions modeled by their god. A violent, unreasonable, temperamental, manipulative, crazy god. When it gets to specifics your arguments fall apart. Its fine to stay out there with generalizations and your own straw men. I can document how the applications of a literal understanding of the Bible have lead to violence and cruelty. John Calvin and Martin Luther are simply a few of the protestants who used the Bible this way. We can look at a culture and see how its moral rational might be a product of its time, but to say that God becomes a product of the times simply has no foundation. It is more likely the cultural influence of the writers determined how they wrote about God, rather than an indication that God decided to stone someone for gathering sticks. So, when you have a specific rationale for why God would stone someone for gathering sticks, then your generalizations might come to have a point. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
LifeHiscost Posted October 18, 2005 Posted October 18, 2005 Quote: Ed Dickerson said: LHC,Don't be so quick to judge. You simply have no idea where I might go with this. [:"red"] "...where are those -- thine accusers? did no one pass sentence upon thee?' ...Jesus said...`Neither do I pass sentence on thee...'" [/] John 8:10,11 YLT [:"red"] "For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him" [/] John 3:17 YLT Keep the faith!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
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