How can we lecture the Islamic world?

[lazarus]

What follows in an except from a powerful piece by Robert Fisk of the Independent newspaper in the UK.

Here's a link to the full piece:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article313189.ece

How can we suggest that a religion based on "submission" to God must itself "submit" to our happy-clappy, all-too-Western " universal human rights"? I don’t know. Especially when we " Christians" have largely failed to condemn some of our own atrocities - indeed, have preferred to forget them.

Take the Christians who massacred the Muslims of Srebrenica. Or take the Christians - Lebanese Phalangist allies of the Israelis - who entered the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps in Beirut and slaughtered up to 1,700 Palestinian Muslim civilians.

Do we remember that? Do we recall that the massacres occurred between 16 and 18 September 1982? Yes, today is the 23rd anniversary of that little genocide - and I suspect The Independent will be one of the very few newspapers to remember it. I was in those camps in 1982. I climbed over the corpses. Some of the Christian Phalangists in Beirut even had illustrations of the Virgin Mary on their gun butts, just as the Christian Serbs did in Bosnia.

Are we therefore in a position to tell our Muslim neighbours to "grasp the nettle"? I rather think not. Because the condition of human rights has been so eroded by our own folly, our illegal invasion of Iraq and the anarchy that we have allowed to take root there, our flagrant refusal to prevent further Israeli settlement expansion in the West Bank, our constant, whining demands that prominent Muslims must disown the killers who take their religious texts too literally, that we have long ago lost our moral compass.

Read the full article

[Dr. Shane]

Perhaps we should let muslems lecture us infidels about morality. Maybe we should start stoning people for adultry. Should Bill Clinton be the first to get buried up to his waist and then stoned to death for his indescretion <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Or instead of lethal injection, maybe we should put those condemned to death in a gunny sack and throw them off a cliff. If they survive they can then be hanged to death.

Maybe western civilazation does have somthing to learn from the Islamic world. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[lazarus]

The Islamic world will ever be sceptical of the sincerity of Christians political leadership who fail to condemn the mistakes of their fellow Christians in the world but will readly highlight the misdeeds of others.

[Neil D]

The biggest difference between Islam and Christianity is Christianty's ability to forgive and work things out. It is the principle of forgiveness and mercy and working past the grievances to build trust that make Christianity the better religon.

Unfortunately, Christianity can be short sighted and forget the mercy prinicples that are the foundation of it's religon. At which point Christianity no longer exists, but rather a perferted form of chrisitianty then quickly subsitutes itself for the real thing.

It's too bad that many do not see this...

[lazarus]

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Neil D said:

The biggest difference between Islam and Christianity is Christianty's ability to forgive and work things out. It is the principle of forgiveness and mercy and working past the grievances to build trust that make Christianity the better religon.

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I have never read large parts of the Koran but my experience of Muslims has been a very positive one. As a child and a teenager I grew up in a community that was at least 30% Muslim. The Muslims were the very often the most law abiding, meek, respectful and forgiving section in the community.

I have to say that I don't see forgiveness as being the biggest difference. I see Jesus and the life of Jesus as the big difference in that he is our example and that we DONT have to earn our salvation.

Christianity in the 20th century has shown itself to be, in many ways, arrogant, greedy, disrespectful. Thats not to damn all Christians but perhaps to explain the hatred that some Moslems have towarards us.

[Neil D]

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The Muslims were the very often the most law abiding, meek, respectful and forgiving section in the community.

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And, I am told, an intelligent people...but that is not the pictures that I see from the news. Buildings made of some sort of mud, a simple people who definately have poverty among them. Quite a contrast from a people who created Alebra, and were a math orientated people.

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I have to say that I don't see forgiveness as being the biggest difference. I see Jesus and the life of Jesus as the big difference in that he is our example and that we DONT have to earn our salvation.

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Aye, and no contest here...with the exception that once Jesus' death is realized and even partially understood, a change happens and its resulting forgiveness spreads to all.

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Christianity in the 20th century has shown itself to be, in many ways, arrogant, greedy, disrespectful. Thats not to damn all Christians but perhaps to explain the hatred that some Moslems have towarards us.

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Ah, yes, that's the christianity that I talk about. It is also the one that Robert harps on, and the one that most here recognize as a mis-construeing of the real Christainity. And it's the one type of christianity that the devil likes to bring to mind when problems/relationships break down.

[Dr. Shane]

When an islamic girl is raped, instead of going after the rapist, the girl's family kills her for disgracing the family.

When a family son kills himself in a suicide bombing, the family throws a party.

Maybe some of you remember this song from Sting:

[:"blue"] In Europe and America

There's a growing feeling of hysteria

Conditioned to respond to all the threats

In the rhetorical speeches of the Soviets

Mr. Krushchev said we will bury you

I don't subscribe to this point of view

It would be such an ignorant thing to do

If the Russians love their children too

How can I save my little boy

From Oppenheimer's deadly toy

There is no monopoly of common sense

On either side of the political fence

We share the same biology

Regardless of ideology

Believe me when I say to you

I hope the Russians love their children too

There is no historical precedent

To put words in the mouth of the President

There's no such thing as a winnable war

It's a lie we don't believe anymore

Mr. Reagan says we will protect you

I don't subscribe to this point of view

Believe me when I say to you

I hope the Russians love their children to

We share the same biology

Regardless of ideology

What might save us, me and you

Is if the Russians love their children too

[/]

We know islamic fundamentalists don't love their children like we love ours. I think someone needs to lecture them.

[lazarus]

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Shane said:

When an islamic girl is raped, instead of going after the rapist, the girl's family kills her for disgracing the family.

When a family son kills himself in a suicide bombing, the family throws a party.

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We know islamic fundamentalists don't love their children like we love ours. I think someone needs to lecture them.

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The absolutely weird thing about what you posted is the fact that you really may believe it! If you really do believe that then before today I have credited you with more intelligence, sensitivity and knowledge about the world than you have shown in this post.

Martin Luther King, Jr.:

Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

Herbert Butterfield:

But the greatest menace to our civilization today is the conflict between giant organized systems of self-righteousness -- each system only too delighted to find that the other is wicked -- each only too glad that the sins give it the pretext for still deeper hatred and animosity.

[Dr. Shane]

Another "honor" victim: Daughter, raped by brothers, killed by mother

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Rofayda Qaoud - raped by her brothers and impregnated - refused to commit suicide, her mother recalls, even after she bought the unwed teenager a razor with which to slit her wrists. So Amira Abu Hanhan Qaoud says she did what she believes any good Palestinian parent would: restored her family's "honor" through murder.

Armed with a plastic bag, razor and wooden stick, Qaoud entered her sleeping daughter's room last Jan. 27. "Tonight you die, Rofayda," she told the girl, before wrapping the bag tightly around her head. Next, Qaoud sliced Rofayda's wrists, ignoring her muffled pleas of "No, mother, no!" After her daughter went limp, Qaoud struck her in the head with the stick.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

MAINTAINING FAMILY HONOR

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make no mistake about it: a woman does tarnish her family's honor by engaging in pre-marital sex, or by getting herself raped, when she seeks divorce and when she marries against her family's wishes... Sometimes, when we correct a wife's behavior by a well-deserved beating, we can maybe go a little too far... keeping our women pure is a big part of our honor... I am also annoyed that news reports focus on gory details instead of showing compassionate understanding of what motivated the men who act vigorously to maintain honor. They are the real victims. Their honor was violated, so killing the offending woman is self-defense...

A European I know said he doesn't understand why a girl who is raped has to die to protect her family's honor. "After all," he said, "it isn't her fault". Is it so hard to understand that when an unmarried woman is no longer sexually pure, the family is humiliated? Her lack of chastity brings shame to everyone in her family. How else can her family's honor be cleansed except by her blood? What's to understand?

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One might want to think about pulling their head out of the idealogical sand.

[jasd]

>>Rofayda Qaoud - raped by her brothers and impregnated - refused to commit suicide, …

Armed with a plastic bag, razor and wooden stick, Qaoud entered her sleeping daughter's room last Jan. 27. "Tonight you die, Rofayda," she told the girl, before wrapping the bag tightly around her head. Next, Qaoud sliced Rofayda's wrists, ignoring her muffled pleas of "No, mother, no!" After her daughter went limp, Qaoud struck her in the head with the stick.

… How else can her family's honor be cleansed except by her blood? What's to understand?<<

>>We know islamic fundamentalists don't love their children like we love ours.<< [ed.]

Ping!

[lazarus]

I do not deny that honour killings take place. They obviously do.

My point is that your GLIB statements

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When an islamic girl is raped

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Suggest that all people who are Moslems have adopted this practice. They have not.

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We know islamic fundamentalists don't love their children like we love ours.

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Again Shane, just because you believe it, it does not mean that we know it.

This kind of thinking seems to be common in many Neo-Conservatives.

[Dr. Shane]

I qualified my statement by saying Islamic fundamentalists. There are many moderate Islamics that do not need lectures. The fundamentalists do need lectures. And those "lectures" need to come from the moderate Islamics. The west just needs to lecture the moderates to start lecturing the fundamentalists (and some of them are).

The fundamentalists still want to run every last Jew into the sea!!! One has to be living in lala land not to see they are a serious problem. Thank God President Bush has the courage to do the right thing no matter what anyone thinks. God bless him.

[Derrell M]

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Again Shane, just because you believe it, it does not mean that we know it.

This kind of thinking seems to be common in many Neo-Conservatives.

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Lazarus, If you are correct in your assertion, that would seem to give the Neo-Conservatives and the Liberals something in common.

[lazarus]

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Shane said:

I qualified my statement by saying Islamic

fundamentalists.

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I've shared a few jokes with Islamic fundamentalists on Hyde park corner in London. I don't know how many you know.

They are not crazy or raving suicide bombers. Most of them believe very fervently in the Koran and would die for their faith. They take their children to school, kiss them, provide for them. They don't believe in sex before marriage, adultery, pornography. They pray five times a day. Thats not bad. They understand much of the violence advocated in the Koran much that same way that we understand the OT. Much like Christian fundamentalists. They are not all the characature that the media makes them out to be.

I would not lecture them. That would not get anywhere. If you want to lead someone to truth and light you would not lecture them. I surpised that you would take that approach Shane.

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Thank God President Bush has the courage to do the right thing no matter what anyone thinks. God bless him.

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Shane, I don't think even you know hoe serious the problem is. You think the Iraq qar is the solution. Read about the history of Terrorist movements around the world. Look at the UK experience with the IRA.

George Bush does what most other politicians do, take a position, defend it until its clear that it will cost to much to keep defending it. He watches the polls just like every other politician, perhaps more so. Dn't believe the hype!

[Neil D]

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Shane, I don't think even you know hoe serious the problem is. You think the Iraq qar is the solution. Read about the history of Terrorist movements around the world. Look at the UK experience with the IRA.

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Lazarus-

I hear your fustration...and I offer this...

Ever wonder why glue doesn't stick on the inside of a bottle?

[Dr. Shane]

I have several Islamic friends. The univeristy I attended had many such students. I don't know how many, if any, fundamentalists. They seemed moderate to me but I guess until the show up with a suicide vest on it is hard to tell.

[Dr. Shane]

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Ever wonder why glue doesn't stick on the inside of a bottle?

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Is that an inflamatory, personal attack? I hope not. We need to try and play well together. Nobody likes a bully.

[Neil D]

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Shane said:

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Ever wonder why glue doesn't stick on the inside of a bottle?

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Is that an inflamatory, personal attack? I hope not. We need to try and play well together. Nobody likes a bully.

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Excuse me????

Where is YOUR name in that post, Shane? Where is the word "YOU" in there? Where is the reference to YOU???? What do you think was said there, Shane???

The answer to the question is that the glue needs air to stick...You need air and I suggest that you get away from your keyboard and go outside and breath some, Shane.

You are being abit paranoid, Shane. You have been at this too long. It was a suggestion of peace, Shane, but you are turning this into something personal.

Do what the glue needs to do to stick...Go get some air.

[Dr. Shane]

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Where is the reference to YOU???... The answer to the question is that the glue needs air to stick...You need air

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So it was direct at me... <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for clearing that up. It takes me longer to catch on to some of those things. I was born poor white trash and here in Texas we just chew on hay seeds so those fancy riddles can get lost on some of us. Thanks for being so kind in explaining it to a simple mind like me. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Neil D]

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So it was direct at me...

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I am sorry, Shane, but it was NOT . It WAS an attempt for all concerned to step away from the computer and clear the air...

[sigh]No wonder Lazarus is fustratated...

How can I say that all the progress you have made is slipping away without it sounding like a personal attack, Shane? I guess I can not....

I am sorry that I can not even give you a warning without it sounding like I am out to get you....

I am sorry....

[Dr. Shane]

Well I see I need to proof-read my posts a little more. My spelling has always been poor but my grammer is starting to slip too <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[lazarus]

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Shane said:

I have several Islamic friends.........they seemed moderate to me.

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If you say they look like moderates to you then its safe to say that they fundamentalists!