"the rest of the dead" - who are they?

[8thdaypriest]

I would like to hear arguments - from Scripture - which say that "the rest of the dead" are "the wicked" from the 6000 years between Adam's sin and the Second Coming.

[Gibs]

I don't see any room for argument,

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

We know 20:5 is telling us of the righteous dead raised but the rest remain dead for a thousand more yrs. awaiting the second resurrection.

The first resurrection is the ones who are pronounced blessed and holy.

A thousand yrs. later then Satan is turned loose and He is the king of these his subjects who chose him over God and so he takes over and sets up to do battle of the Holy City and then, Poof!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[8thdaypriest]

I know that when one gets a certain way of understanding, and has held to that way for a very long time, it is very difficult to "see" something different. One almost has to start over - to look at the Scriptures with an open mind, just trying to "hear" what they say. A new insight can come in a moment, or it can take years to develop thru searching the Word.

We cannot just read Revelation 20:5-6, and base our whole understanding on those two verses. I would ask:

Is the Gog-Magog army synonymous with "the rest of the dead" ??

Will ALL of "the rest of the dead" be Gog's army of rebellion?

COULD Gog and his Magog army be the rebellious majority OF "the rest of the dead" ?

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Blessings

[8thdaypriest]

There are several Scriptures that indicate the wicked (openly rebellious against God and His Law from the 6000 years) will be resurrected and judged and then destroyed AT THE SECOND COMING.

If that is so - then why resurrected them yet again, to judge them again and destroy them AGAIN after 1000 years have passed? Their names have been blotted OUT of the Book of Life. They won't be written back in.

Daniel 12:1-3 “There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people – everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.” NIV

NOTE: “Multitudes” (many) will awake - that’s a resurrection!

Some will rise to deliverance.

Some will rise to “shame and everlasting contempt.”

Everlasting contempt is a forever judgment.

NOTE: The text does NOT say “[color:#FF0000]all of those that sleep in the dust.” It says “multitudes.” This leaves room to ask, “Are there some who will NOT be raised on this day?

Romans 2:5-11 “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God ‘will repay each person according to what they have done.’ To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.” (NIV) [Paul then says that both Jews and Gentiles will receive their due reward or punishment.] “For God does not show favoritism.”

From Romans 2:5-11, we conclude that:

The “day of God’s wrath”

Is the day “when His righteous judgment will be revealed”

Is the day when He “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

This seems to say that all of the stubbornly wicked WILL be raised ON THAT DAY.

2 Timothy 4:1 “I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:”

THIS says to me that the wicked will be resurrected to face judgment AT HIS APPEARING. Soooooo - This would be “the time of the dead that they should be judged” (Rev. 11:18).

2 Peter 3:7 “But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

In context Peter is definitely writing about events associated with the Second Coming. “Perdition” simply means destruction. The “ungodly” are judged and destroyed ON THIS DAY - the day that the earth is destroyed by fire!

If "all nations" are "gathered" before Him when He comes in His glory with His angels - isn't that the Second Coming?? He divides the sheep from the goats (Matthew 25). His angels separate the tares for burning. Isn't that a judgment?

WILL HE EXECUTE THEM TWICE?

If the wicked are raised to face judgment and death on the day that Christ returns, will He resurrect them AGAIN, to judge them and execute them AGAIN - after 1000 years have past? I have NOT found good evidence that “the rest of the dead” are the same wicked persons who are judged and executed at the Second Coming. I am asking for arguments FROM SCRIPTURE that this is the case.

Revelation 1:7, and Matthew 26:64 include those who crucified Christ in the resurrection at the Second Coming. I know that SDAs/EGW call this the "special resurrection", but WHAT IF that special resurrection includes more than just a few men from the first century who directly executed Christ. WHAT IF that special resurrection includes ALL of those who lived in open rebellion against God - who KNEW of God yet chose to live in open rebellion against Him.

If there is a massive resurrection on the day Christ returns, and the wicked from the 6000 years are raised, judged and destroyed on THAT day, isn't it just possible that there are others - who were ignorant of God and His Law during their lives, who will be raised to continue their lives AFTER the 1000 years of the 7th millennium.

There are sooooooo many passages that speak of people from "the nations" coming to learn the ways of God AFTER Israel redeemed is "returned to the land." How do we understand all of those??

I am looking for arguments FROM SCRIPTURE that "the rest of the dead" are the wicked from the 6000 years of this age.

Because I think they will be dealt with at the Second Coming. There is no need to physically execute them again.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Many Blessings,

[Felix Florimon]

There are several Scriptures that indicate the wicked (openly rebellious against God and His Law from the 6000 years) will be resurrected and judged and then destroyed AT THE SECOND COMING.

If that is so - then why resurrected them yet again, to judge them again and destroy them AGAIN after 1000 years have passed? Their names have been blotted OUT of the Book of Life. They won't be written back in.

Daniel 12:1-3 “There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people – everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.” NIV

NOTE: “Multitudes” (many) will awake - that’s a resurrection!

Some will rise to deliverance.

Some will rise to “shame and everlasting contempt.”

Everlasting contempt is a forever judgment.

NOTE: The text does NOT say “[color:#FF0000]all of those that sleep in the dust.” It says “multitudes.” This leaves room to ask, “Are there some who will NOT be raised on this day?

Romans 2:5-11 “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God ‘will repay each person according to what they have done.’ To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.” (NIV) [Paul then says that both Jews and Gentiles will receive their due reward or punishment.] “For God does not show favoritism.”

From Romans 2:5-11, we conclude that:

The “day of God’s wrath”

Is the day “when His righteous judgment will be revealed”

Is the day when He “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

This seems to say that all of the stubbornly wicked WILL be raised ON THAT DAY.

2 Timothy 4:1 “I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:”

THIS says to me that the wicked will be resurrected to face judgment AT HIS APPEARING. Soooooo - This would be “the time of the dead that they should be judged” (Rev. 11:18).

2 Peter 3:7 “But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

In context Peter is definitely writing about events associated with the Second Coming. “Perdition” simply means destruction. The “ungodly” are judged and destroyed ON THIS DAY - the day that the earth is destroyed by fire!

If "all nations" are "gathered" before Him when He comes in His glory with His angels - isn't that the Second Coming?? He divides the sheep from the goats (Matthew 25). His angels separate the tares for burning. Isn't that a judgment?

WILL HE EXECUTE THEM TWICE?

If the wicked are raised to face judgment and death on the day that Christ returns, will He resurrect them AGAIN, to judge them and execute them AGAIN - after 1000 years have past? I have NOT found good evidence that “the rest of the dead” are the same wicked persons who are judged and executed at the Second Coming. I am asking for arguments FROM SCRIPTURE that this is the case.

Revelation 1:7, and Matthew 26:64 include those who crucified Christ in the resurrection at the Second Coming. I know that SDAs/EGW call this the "special resurrection", but WHAT IF that special resurrection includes more than just a few men from the first century who directly executed Christ. WHAT IF that special resurrection includes ALL of those who lived in open rebellion against God - who KNEW of God yet chose to live in open rebellion against Him.

If there is a massive resurrection on the day Christ returns, and the wicked from the 6000 years are raised, judged and destroyed on THAT day, isn't it just possible that there are others - who were ignorant of God and His Law during their lives, who will be raised to continue their lives AFTER the 1000 years of the 7th millennium.

There are sooooooo many passages that speak of people from "the nations" coming to learn the ways of God AFTER Israel redeemed is "returned to the land." How do we understand all of those??

I am looking for arguments FROM SCRIPTURE that "the rest of the dead" are the wicked from the 6000 years of this age.

Because I think they will be dealt with at the Second Coming. There is no need to physically execute them again.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Many Blessings,

[8thdaypriest]

When we teach the "State of the Dead" we make of point of saying that God is merciful and just, and will NOT allow human beings to be tormented forever in a place called "HELL."

My point - in teaching that "the rest of the dead" are those who lived in ignorance of the true God, that they will be resurrected to continue their physical lives and then taught the things of God - is the SAME POINT. Our God is JUST and MERCIFUL. He longs for these people to know of Him, and to choose Him as LORD. He will NOT destroy them forever for sins of ignorance. Sins of ignorance were "covered" by the "daily" sacrifice.

If sins are "covered" then they are "covered." But that persons is NOT an Israelite. He has NOT entered into covenant with the God of Israel. He is NOT "cut off" but he is NOT an Israelite either. He must be resurrected and educated before he can make that choice.

Our God is JUST. He simply will NOT give eternal life and citizenship in His kingdom to persons who did not choose Him as LORD. But that includes those who died as little children, or were mentally compromised - not just the ignorant pagans.

[by the way, there is a study at my website on the "State of the Dead" and another about the concept of "Hell - What It's Not". These are detailed studies which agree with SDA theology.]

I am asking for Scriptures which prove that "the rest of the dead" are the wicked from the 6000 years. I have read a great deal in SDA literature and presentations, but I have not heard or read anything that proves this point - from Scripture ONLY.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Blessings

[BobRyan]

2 Peter 3:7 “But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

In context Peter is definitely writing about events associated with the Second Coming. “Perdition” simply means destruction. The “ungodly” are judged and destroyed ON THIS DAY - the day that the earth is destroyed by fire!

If "all nations" are "gathered" before Him when He comes in His glory with His angels - isn't that the Second Coming?? He divides the sheep from the goats (Matthew 25). His angels separate the tares for burning. Isn't that a judgment?

[8thdaypriest]

Only "the blessed" are raised in the first resurrection according to Rev 20 -- and only they have the statement made about them "over these the 2nd death has no power". Nothing of the sort is said of those who are "The rest of the dead" in Rev 20.

In Rev 20:4-5 the dead in Christ are called the "blessed and holy" ones and are raised in the "FIRST resurrection".

In John 5 there are two specific resurrections. One of life - and one of death.

It violates the Heb 9 rule "appointed unto man ONCE to die and then comes the judgment".

There is no "die - then given another chance to accept eternal life" in all of scripture.

Hi Bob,

I agree that "the rest of the dead" ARE subject to the second death, BECAUSE they are raised with physical bodies - not immortal spiritual ones. They are still on probation.

Daniel 12:2-3 has TWO types of people resurrected at the same "time." And John 5:28-29 also has TWO types of people resurrected at "the hour." Romans 2:5-11 has the redeemed receiving eternal life, at the same time that wicked receive "wrath and anger."

Because the "blessed and holy ones" are raised in "the first resurrection" does NOT preclude the wicked being raised to judgment at that time, and destroyed.

The Hebrews 9 rule says that a man must die, before being judged. There were several instances of resurrection, by Christ or His disciples. Those persons were NOT judged after they died the first time, BECAUSE God knew that they would be resurrected to continue their lives - therefore the judgment of those persons was delayed, until the LORD knew that they had finished their lives (and thus made their final choices concerning HIM).

Those to be resurrected AFTER the 1000 years of the 7th millennium, have NOT YET finished their lives. They have not yet made decisions concerning the Father or His Son - because they never KNEW of them.

Blessings

[BobRyan]

Only "the blessed" are raised in the first resurrection according to Rev 20 -- and only they have the statement made about them "over these the 2nd death has no power". Nothing of the sort is said of those who are "The rest of the dead" in Rev 20.

In Rev 20:4-5 the dead in Christ are called the "blessed and holy" ones and are raised in the "FIRST resurrection".

In John 5 there are two specific resurrections. One of life - and one of death.

It violates the Heb 9 rule "appointed unto man ONCE to die and then comes the judgment".

There is no "die - then given another chance to accept eternal life" in all of scripture.

[8thdaypriest]

Bob Ryan said:

Daniel 12, John 5 tell us that there are two resurrections - not one.

Rachel answers:

I know that is the SDA understanding of those two verses, but honestly - the wording points to TWO types of people - "some" and "others" - raised "at that time."

John 5 could be understood either way - ONE resurrection at the hour which includes two types of people, OR TWO resurrections. So this verse cannot be used as a "proof text."

The rebellious from the "second group" raised AFTER the 1000 years of the 7th millennium, is destroyed at the Gog-Magog Battle. My belief is that SOME from "the rest of the dead" will come to know the LORD. The resurrection AFTER the 7th millennium is NOT a resurrection solely for destruction.

FOLLOWING that Battle, John saw the Great White Throne Judgment. I believe THAT final judgment will be a review of the records (books) for all of those who are "dead" at that point - those who were destroyed by fire at the Second Coming AND those who were destroyed by fire at Gog-Magog. They are NOT resurrected again. The point being that they ARE DEAD - at this point. The only thing that remains of them is the "spirit" or essence that God retains at the moment of dead, which HE could use to resurrect them. The question in that judgment is whether any of these persons should be resurrected to continue his/her life. The answer will of course be "NO."

This is a final review of the records BEFORE God destroys His memory of them in the special "lake of fire." The redeemed must be satisfied of the justice of God. The OT command concerning the death penalty was, "all Israel shall stone him with stones." The congregation MUST concur/participate in the execution.

These people are NOT resurrected again when this judgment sits. They ARE dead - physically dead. But they are NOT YET "dead" to God until He destroys His retained memory of them. When Sheol - "the abode of the dead" - is destroyed in the "lake of fire", only then is every last trace of them gone forever.

I have completed the recording of the study "Final Judgment - Lake of Fire." We should have it loaded at our website: www.prophecyviewpoint.com by Sabbath.

Blessings,

Rachel

[JoeMo]

I think Rachel offers some mind-opening alternatives to the way we have all been indoctrinated with as SDA's. Her posts and her website have inspired my to deeper study.

Do I swallow 100% of what she says? No. Have her expose's changed my personal theology? Not really; but a little bit, yeah. Are the things she is discussing salvational issues? I don't think so; the meat of the Gospel is not that complicated. But she is going for that "Pearl of Great Price" with her deep-dive, open minded studies of prophecy. I think the alternatives she offers are just a scripturally viable as some of the stuff traditional SDA's teach (for example the day-for-year principle applied to Daniel and the 1st 19 chapters of Revelation - but not to the millennium in chapters 20 - 22).

I look at eschatology as an ongoing assessment of alternative scenarios. I refuse to focus on just one, like the Pope/Catholicism being the anti-christ (or is it the 7-headed beast, or the whore, or the false prophet - or all of them; I've never got that quite straight). Keeping one's mind open to several scenarios increases your chances of seeing the prophecy fulfilled real-time rather than after-the-fact (when it might be too late). I like to keep radical Islam and totalitarian secular politics in the mix as well.

[BobRyan]

The Hebrews 9 rule says that a man must die, before being judged. There were several instances of resurrection, by Christ or His disciples. Those persons were NOT judged after they died the first time, BECAUSE God knew that they would be resurrected to continue their lives - therefore the judgment of those persons was delayed, until the LORD knew that they had finished their lives (and thus made their final choices concerning HIM).

Those to be resurrected AFTER the 1000 years of the 7th millennium, have NOT YET finished their lives. They have not yet made decisions concerning the Father or His Son - because they never KNEW of them.

Heb 9 says that it is appointed unto man once to die - and then comes judgment. Not "and then comes another life time of more probation to decided again whether you want salvation".

In your last paragraph you argue a non-bible-text idea that because the exact story of the cross was not known to the lost (including most of the saints of the OT) they must be raised again and given another life time to decide if they will accept the Gospel -- but this time being fully informed.

Romans 2 flatly rejects that idea. Because in Romans 2 the "level of the story" that you know - has nothing to do with whether or not you can respond to the Holy Spirit.

John 16 says the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" does not say "convicts just those with access to a Bible of sin and righteousness and judgment".

Hence Romans 2:11-16.

There will be saints in heaven - just then learning the story of Redemption.

in Christ,

Bob

[8thdaypriest]

Hebrews 9 says that a man must die "first" before being judged. That word translated as "once" in the King James can just as correctly be translated as "first."

While I agree with you that the Spirit of God seeks to reach every person, that "God Spot" in all of us sometimes goes looking for God in all the wrong places. Pagan worship practices, voodoo, spiritism - all practiced by people searching for "God" to fill that empty place inside them. When Paul preached to the Corinthians he said, "Let me tell you about the Unknown God."

Information is required before a human being can know WHOM to worship, or HOW.

I think the pagans living in darkness, would have a case against The LORD, to charge Him with injustice, if He did not give them the information and then allow them the opportunity to choose.

By your reasoning - missionaries are not necessary, or printed literature, BECAUSE the LORD can simply judge each person based upon their response to the Spirit.

There is no need for education in the things of God. It won't effect their salvation.

I did NOT SAY that those living before the cross must know about that event before they can be saved. When they brought a lamb for sacrifice, they did so in obedience to Yahweh. Those people will be covered by the blood of the TRUE LAMB. They KNEW of Yahweh, and they were educated in "His ways."

Here are just a few texts which put Gentiles from "the nations" in the land with Israel returned. These Gentiles come to know the God of Israel AFTER she has been "returned to the land." And this return CANNOT BE the return under Ezra or Nehemiah. There are too many things described with this future return, that did NOT take place back then. The "return" under Ezra/Nehemiah was the TYPE for the future return.

Isaiah 14:1 “For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will still choose Israel, and settle them in their own land. The strangers will be joined with them, and they will cling to the house of Jacob.”

Isaiah 2:1-4 “And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains [above all kingdoms], and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say, ‘Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths:’ for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” (ASV)

Isaiah 61:4-9 “And they [the returned] shall rebuild the old ruins, They shall raise up the former desolations, And they shall repair the ruined cities, The desolations of many generations. Strangers [non-Israelites] shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the foreigner shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. But you shall be named the priests of the LORD.

They shall call you the servants of our God. You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, And in their glory you shall boast. Instead of your shame you shall have double honor, [the inheritance of the firstborn] And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion. Therefore in their land they shall possess double; Everlasting joy shall be theirs. For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery for burnt offering; I will direct their work in truth, And will make with them an everlasting covenant [The New Covenant]. Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles, [the nations] And their offspring among the people. All who see them shall acknowledge them, That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”

Zechariah 2:11 “Many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.”

Jeremiah 16:19-21 [Verses 14-15 describe the promised return of Israel to the land.] “The Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth . . .” “I will cause them to know My hand and My might; and they shall know that My name is the LORD.”

There is a whole series of studies on this topic posted at my website. The videos are grouped together under "The 8th Day" studies. "The 8th Day" would be the 8th millennium.

The amount of information on this within the Scriptures is absolutely amazing!!

I was just trying to see if anyone had other arguments, which I should consider.

Blessings

Rachel

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

[8thdaypriest]

I believe that the earth will be desolate and uninhabited during the 7th millennium. There is a study at my website on this titled "Millennium." Look in the video archive under "The 8th Day" section.

Jeremiah wrote that he was shown "the earth" after the "great day of the LORD." He wrote that "it was without form and void." These are the same Hebrew words from Genesis 1. The emptiness or "void" came into the English as "bottomless pit" - same place where Satan is thrown for 1000 years.

All this is covered in that study at my website.

I believe "the righteous" - or redeemed - will spend the Sabbath millennium in the "Father's House" or heaven itself.

Heaven itself is "the true Tabernacle." The redeemed from the first resurrection are to become "priests of God and of Christ" so they must complete a consecration. Aaron and his sons were told to "remain at the door of the Tabernacle seven days." We are to become priests - so we must remain at the door of "heaven itself" - the true tabernacle. Those to be consecrated as priests did NOT BEGIN their ministry as priests till "the 8th day" - which means that the redeemed will not begin to serve as priests until the 8th millennium.

There is a study at my website titled "A Kingdom of Priests."

"The beloved city" was/is Jerusalem.

I do NOT BELIEVE that it is The New Jerusalem. I do not believe that the Father will descend to this planet with the New Jerusalem - UNTIL sin is complete cleansed from the earth. So the New Jerusalem would not descend until AFTER the Gog-Magog Battle.

I believe that a period of 1000 years (the 8th millennium) will elapse BETWEEN the "second" or last great resurrection - and the descent of The Holy City New Jerusalem. During that period the redeemed will be living in the land originally promised to Abraham. They will worship at the Temple seen by Ezekiel. They will go up to a reconstructed Jerusalem for the Feasts. And they will serve as priests to teach and govern "the nations" raised at the end of the 7th millennium.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Blessings

[8thdaypriest]

Here's a link to a flowchart:

Flowchart of the Millennia and Resurrections

How's that??

[8thdaypriest]

Our picture of the Yeshua and his coming Kingdom must include within it, EVERY prophecy given.

The "earth" - rendered "without form and void" by the 7 last vials of wrath.

Redeemed Israel returned to the land which was promised to Abraham.

That land healed and restored.

Those from "the nations" coming up to Jerusalem, to "learn the ways of the LORD" AFTER Israel is returned to the land.

[That must include an explanation of how these nations came to BE on this earth, AFTER it was destroyed in fire at the Second Coming.]

Redeemed Israel serving as "priests of God and of Christ."

Redeemed Israel ruling the nations.

Ezekiel's Temple.

The rebellion of Gog and Magog.

It must all be included or we have an incomplete picture.

Shalom,

Rachel

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

[BobRyan]

John 16 says the Spirit of God "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" not just the ones on the left side of your chart.

John 12:32 says Jesus draws "ALL " unto Him - not just the ones on the left side of your chart.

John 1 says that Jesus is the light of the World and that He is the light that coming into the world "enlightens all" of mankind - not just the ones on the left side of your chart.

Genesis 3 says that God places supernatural "emnity" between the children of the woman and the kingdom of Satan - not just the one's on the left side of your chart.

Heb 9 says that it is appointed unto man once to die - and then comes judgment. Not "and then comes another life time of more probation to decided again whether you want salvation".

In your last paragraph you argue a non-bible-text idea that because the exact story of the cross was not known to the lost (including most of the saints of the OT) they must be raised again and given another life time to decide if they will accept the Gospel -- but this time being fully informed.

Romans 2 flatly rejects that idea. Because in Romans 2 the "level of the story" that you know - has nothing to do with whether or not you can respond to the Holy Spirit.

John 16 says the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" does not say "convicts just those with access to a Bible of sin and righteousness and judgment".

Hence Romans 2:11-16.

There will be saints in heaven - just then learning the story of Redemption.

in Christ,

Bob

[8thdaypriest]

Hi Bob,

Yes - the Spirit "draws ALL." And Christ will enlighten ALL. But that doesn't make teaching the truth un-necessary. It is "the truth" which sets men free, not "the Spirit" alone.

If all the work necessary is done by the Spirit - then just have the missionaries and teachers stay put at home. No need to "go and teach all nations."

Your objections do not take into account the timing. WHEN a human being hears "the truth" - the Spirit - agrees with what he is hearing. He affirms this as "truth." He may even put a longing for something more, into the heart of the pagan.

The Spirit (of Christ) and the teachers of the truth work together. But that doesn't mean that a newborn baby or a pagan ignorant of Yahweh has received all the information or enlightenment necessary in order for them to CHOOSE Christ as King.

If a young child is given a pass, straight to eternal life, then the LORD will have to manipulate the mind of that child (without his permission) to make sure he continues to live in harmony with the principles of the LORD's kingdom. If God was going to do that - then WHY didn't HE just do it in the first place - with Adam and Eve - and skip all this painful mess. I believe each person ultimately given eternal life in the Kingdom of Christ, will have CHOSEN Christ as King, and will have been tested - so that his actions will reveal his heart. This because the lost will be "judged by their works, according to the things written in the books." (Rev. 20)

Hebrews 9 says "it is appoint for man to die first - then comes judgment." That word can be translated as "once" or as "first." Several during Bible times "died", but were raised to continue their lives. They were not judged the first time they "died." They will be judged only when God says their physical lives are finished (or completed) regardless of how many times they were resurrected to physical life, in order to complete that process.

I DO NOT argue that faithful Israelites who worshiped Yahweh, and followed His instructions BEFORE the cross - need to be raised again. They "looked forward in faith" to the cross, when they "brought a lamb." But they DID know that Yahweh alone was/is God. They did obey (as best they could) His Law, and if they sinned - they brought a lamb. Even "Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Blessings,

Rachel

[8thdaypriest]

Hi Joe,

There is a study at my website titled "Millennium." I think if you will read thru that one, it will clarify.

I am very familiar with different Messianic and Hebrew Roots teachings concerning the 7th millennium. I just believe the priestly ministry has been MOVED (for the remainder of this age) to "the true tabernacle" - which is "heaven itself." Which means that those to be consecrated as priests must go THERE, not to Jerusalem on earth (not yet).

I believe Zechariah 14:4 will happen when Yeshua (with the "holy ones" - the now consecrated priests) returns to earth/and Jerusalem AFTER the 7th millennium. They will build the Temple which was seen by Ezekiel. The river of life will flow out - and THAT is WHEN the whole earth will come back to life, as well as "the rest of the dead."

Seventh Bowl: The greatest earthquake the world has ever known. “Every island fled away and the mountains were not found. Great hail from heaven fell upon men, every hailstone about the weight of a talent [100pds]” (Rev. 16:18-21).

The surface of the earth would need to be broken up to an incredible degree - an earthquake with the power to break apart every known fault over the face of the entire earth. I do not see a universal flood of sea water here. If the “sky” is parted, or “rolled up like a scroll,” (Rev. 6:14, Isa. 34:4) that suggests our atmosphere may be disrupted. If the oceans are vaporized by an asteroid hit, the water vapor may be dispersed into outer space - leaving the planet dry and lifeless.

NOTE: With no clean air (algae in the sea make 75% of the earth's oxygen. The vegetation makes the other 25%), no water, no food (all vegetation burned), severe heat then darkness, and then an asteroid shower, while the surface of the earth is broken up - do you really think there would be any human life left on this planet!? Many teach that the saints will reign with Christ, during the 7th millennium, over the nations who survive these last plagues. I disagree!

"WITHOUT FORM AND VOID" is "without form and void." That's the "earth" as seen by Jeremiah after the "great day of the LORD." That does not suggest much life to me.

Jeremiah 4:23-26 [After the great day of the Lord] “I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled, And all the hills moved back and forth. I beheld, and indeed there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled. I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were broken down At the presence of the LORD, By His fierce anger.”

Matthew 24:35-37 [Christ speaking] “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.”

Isaiah 24:18-20 “For the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth are shaken. The earth is violently broken. The earth is split open. The earth is shaken exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall totter like a hut.”

NOTE: The stars will not literally “fall” to earth. John may be describing an asteroid shower, or the stars may have the appearance of falling when the earth reels to and fro.

Isaiah 13:13 “Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth will move out of her place, [out of her orbit] in the wrath of the LORD of hosts and in the day of His fierce anger.”

HOW COULD ANY HUMAN LIFE CONTINUE ON THIS PLANET

AFTER THESE EVENTS?

Shalom

Rachel

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

[Gibs]

After the 1'st resurrection there will be "no" man and the earth will be dark, notice verse 23 here,

Jer 4:20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.

Jer 4:21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?

Jer 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Jer 4:29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.

It is given a thousand yrs. a Sabbath rest as men never gave it the commanded yearly ones. It is left in ruins, no habitation is possible!

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

[8thdaypriest]

It says "few men left".

- joe

The "few men" who are "left" will be redeemed Israel, who will be removed from this planet to "the Father's House."

They will later be sent back as "signposts" to their respective cultures to teach, to govern, and to lead many to the LORD, during the 8th millennium.

"The rest of the dead" will "not live again" until they are resurrected - which resurrection does not take place until AFTER 1000 pass - in other words - at the 8th millennium.

Joe - seriously - please really pray about this, will you??

I am absolutely convinced that there will be NO LIFE on this planet during the coming 7th millennium. I have studied this intensely for at least 10 years now.

The REASON WHY this is so important to understand is BECAUSE Satan will "sit in the Temple of God showing himself that He is God." He will claim to be Christ come. He will sit in a rebuilt Temple on the Mount.

If you understand that Yeshua will NOT set up His House on this earth until the 8th millennium, then you will not be caught up in the counterfeit Second Coming.

Many of the prophecies from Isaiah, and Jeremiah were DUAL prophecies. They warned of the coming destruction by the Babylonians, but they ALSO warned of the coming destruction of the ENTIRE EARTH, at "the great day of the LORD."

Shalom,

Rachel

[8thdaypriest]

I found the verse about "those who survive" - the "few" who are "left".

Isaiah 66:18-21 [After the destruction of v. 15-17] “For I know their works and their thoughts: the time cometh, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and shall see my glory. And I will set a sign among them, and I will send such as escape of them [those raised first] unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the nations. And they shall bring all your brethren out of all the nations for an oblation unto Jehovah, upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith Jehovah, as the children of Israel bring their oblation in a clean vessel into the house of Jehovah. And of them also will I take for priests and for Levites, saith Jehovah.” (ASV)

WOW!! He will gather all nations and tongues. Then He will set a sign among them - Israel restored. Human beings with spiritual bodies, ruling with Christ - now that WILL be a sign!

Those who “escape” the destruction and judgment at the Second Coming, the LORD will send back as “a sign” (witnesses) to the nations who have never heard of HIM. These witnesses will then bring many “brethren” to Christ. They will be offered to Christ - like an offering - as “spiritual sacrifices.” And He will even take some of them for priests. Wow!!

Imagine being sent to your grandparents, 30 generations back - to tell them about Jesus.

(Also compare Zechariah 3:7-8: The “companions who sit before” Joshua the High Priest, will be “a wondrous sign.”)

Micah 4:1-2 “Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And peoples shall flow to it. Many nations shall come and say, ‘Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.’ For out of Zion the law shall go forth, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.”

NOTE: The "nations" are flowing to Jerusalem, AFTER the "mountain of the LORD's house" is "established" above all other kingdoms.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

[Gibs]

Why on earth is there a problem understanding this clear of the Words of God?

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

If it can't be seen clear there is no sense in me stating anything!

His Blessings,

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Joe, We the Redeemed are the priests and we don't reign OVER no one. We reign with Christ as HE tells us,

Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Rest of the dead? Easy, the ones not resurrected in the 1'st resurrection then will remain dead until a thousand yrs. later in the second.

Satan goes out among these as soon as they are resurrected to deceive them that they can put together a warfare to annihilate the Holy City and Christ and the Saints come down from Heaven.

They are camped outside of the city to come against it and destroy it.

The 14'th of Zech. tells us some interesting information of this but one needs to be well versed in scripture to handle it correctly and few are equipped to do so.

He does reveal that the Feast of Tabernacles will be kept then in the new earth once this is over with Satan and his subjects come up against the Holy City.

Don't you be one to make a mountain of but a mole hill!

There is nothing hard to see of this question, in fact it shouldn't even be a question!

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of

[Gibs]

Not in this case!