One with God - Have I Correctly Interpreted the Book of John?

[Jeff W.]

A few years ago I started carefully studying the writings of John. The conclusions at which I am arriving are so staggering that I would very much like to submit the ideas through the refining process of a peer review. Please be hard on these ideas, question them thoroughly, and tear them apart from every angle. Truth can stand the test, if indeed it is truth.

The logic goes like this: One of the two great themes in the gospel of John is that by believing we may have life in Jesus’ name. (John 20:31) Multiple times from different perspectives John set forth Jesus’ teaching regarding this subject. By the end of the book a picture starts to emerge:

1. Jesus is embodied in his teachings. (John 1:1)

2. Since Jesus is embodied in teachings, when we seek out and internalize (act on) his teaching, we end up internalizing him, specifically his Spirit. (John 6:53, 63)

3. His Spirit then helps us, going far beyond the initial teaching with which he was internalized, and drives out sin from us as vehemently as Jesus cleansed the temple. (John 4:14; John 7:37-39; John 2:19-21)

4. When his Spirit is thus working within a believer, Jesus considers that person as part of himself, with him as the head and the believer as a member of his body. (John 15:4-10; 1 Corinthians 12:27; Ephesians 4:15)

5. This unity between believers and Jesus is on the level of the unity between Jesus and the Father. Furthermore, if believers are one with Jesus, and Jesus is in turn one with the Father, this makes believers one with the Father too. (John 10:14-15, 31; John 17:21-23)

Jesus revealed some of the implications of this unity when he gave the Revelation to John. Just as the Father greatly honored Jesus, Jesus will in turn greatly honor those who are part of himself.

1. Those who overcome will receive from Jesus authority to rule, just as Jesus received authority from his Father to rule. (Revelation 2:26-27)

2. Those who overcome will sit down with Jesus on his throne, just as he sat down with his Father on his throne. (Revelation 3:21)

3. Those who overcome will be made by Jesus into “pillars in the temple of My God”. The only temple in existence after the Millennium will be the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. (Revelation 21:22)

I have a hard time grasping the full reality of these things, but I can see enough that it leaves me in complete awe of the plans, the mercy, and love that God has for us. Will you help me scrape away at the misunderstandings and dust that cover this subject?

[Gail]

Have you made the connection between Christ and God's word and the power that is contained there as well?

[thx4mercy]

Jeff, your thoughts sound right to me. What are you thinking the misunderstandings on this subject would be?

It is amazing to try to contemplate what God wants to do in us. I think you're right that He wants us to have the kind of love and unity with each other that the Trinity has with each other and for us to have with Them. A totally "other centered love." A book by Ty Gibson helped me to form my thoughts, but I certainly don't see anything in the Bible that would disagree with the idea.

Bless you in your efforts to dig into the Word. There are so many other things in this world and in our schedules to take us away from study, and you must be making it a priority in your life!

[Jeff W.]

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What are you thinking the misunderstandings on this subject would be?

What gives me pause is that to say we are part of Jesus is such a high and far-fetched claim that it seems like blasphemy. Yet the texts are so compelling that to say anything less seems like unbelief. It seems, as it were, that God intends to one day make those who believe in him part of the Trinity. The Bible is clear that all who are part of the kingdom will be completely under the authority of the King. Yet if they are one Spirit with the Son, then it appears that they are as much a part of the Trinity as the Son. Consider these points about being part of Jesus:

• John said that God has one and only one Son. (John 3:16) Yet all who receive him he gave the right to become sons of God. (John 1:12) If God has only one Son, then the only way we can be called sons of God is by being part of that one Son.

• Jesus said that in his Father’s house are many dwelling places, and he was going to prepare a place for those who believe. (John 14:2, 3) However, he claimed he himself was his Father’s house. (John 2:16, 19, 21) In the context of saying he was going to prepare dwelling places for those who believe, he went on to talk about dwelling in him and him dwelling in us. (John 15:4-10) It appears that the dwelling places he was going to prepare for those who believe were dwelling places in himself.

• When Jesus claimed to be one with the Father, the crowds picked up stones to stone him for blasphemy since he made himself out to be God. Yet Jesus came back quickly, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?” (John 10:34-36) Notice that Jesus did not apologize for the overstatement about those who accept the word of God being called gods. He drove the point home stating, “The Scriptures cannot be broken.”

• Paul spoke of the promise given to Abraham, “In your seed all nations of the earth will be blessed.” He pointed out that the word ‘seed’ is singular, not plural. That singular seed was Christ. (Galatians 3:16) Then towards the end of the same chapter he said that as many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ, and then he declares, “If ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

I would be happy to be a water boy in heaven if I could just be there with God. However, it seems that God has something much more planned for those who believe in him.

[Felix Florimon]

A few years ago I started carefully studying the writings of John. The conclusions at which I am arriving are so staggering that I would very much like to submit the ideas through the refining process of a peer review. Please be hard on these ideas, question them thoroughly, and tear them apart from every angle. Truth can stand the test, if indeed it is truth.

The logic goes like this: One of the two great themes in the gospel of John is that by believing we may have life in Jesus’ name. (John 20:31) Multiple times from different perspectives John set forth Jesus’ teaching regarding this subject. By the end of the book a picture starts to emerge:

1. Jesus is embodied in his teachings. (John 1:1)

2. Since Jesus is embodied in teachings, when we seek out and internalize (act on) his teaching, we end up internalizing him, specifically his Spirit. (John 6:53, 63)

3. His Spirit then helps us, going far beyond the initial teaching with which he was internalized, and drives out sin from us as vehemently as Jesus cleansed the temple. (John 4:14; John 7:37-39; John 2:19-21)

4. When his Spirit is thus working within a believer, Jesus considers that person as part of himself, with him as the head and the believer as a member of his body. (John 15:4-10; 1 Corinthians 12:27; Ephesians 4:15)

5. This unity between believers and Jesus is on the level of the unity between Jesus and the Father. Furthermore, if believers are one with Jesus, and Jesus is in turn one with the Father, this makes believers one with the Father too. (John 10:14-15, 31; John 17:21-23)

Yes, but this unity and oneness with God is an ongoing process that could be easily broken if we stop doing the following:

1) Presenting to God in prayer anything that pushes us to take any decision.

2) Asking God in prayer anything that we are not able to fully understand and giving God all the time that we need in order to fully understand God's reply.

3) Constantly being a positive influence in attracting others toward God's kingdom (God likes to add and multiply people to His kingdom; when we lose oneness with God the Devil likes to use our words and actions in order to sow confusion and dissension in those who truly seek God).

Others who truly seek God will perceive our close relationship with Him through the following:

A) "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of" (Luke 6:43-45).

"For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict" (Luke 21:15).

FF

[Gerr]

5. This unity between believers and Jesus is on the level of the unity between Jesus and the Father. Furthermore, if believers are one with Jesus, and Jesus is in turn one with the Father, this makes believers one with the Father too. (John 10:14-15, 31; John 17:21-23)[color:blue]

Our unity with Jesus on the same level as that of the Son and the Father? I don't know about that. Their "oneness" is probably on a higher/deeper level, just as our holiness can never be on the same level as God holiness when Jesus said, ESV | ýMt 5:48 "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." This is to be thought of as being in the same manner and not exactly like because no creature can never be equal with his Creator.

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2. Those who overcome will sit down with Jesus on his throne, just as he sat down with his Father on his throne. (Revelation 3:21)

I've had some questions about that passage. Since it applies to every overcomer, and since everyone who will be in the kingdom will have to be an overcomer, if everyone is going to rule with Christ, who will they be ruling over? All chiefs but where and who are the Indians?

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I have a hard time grasping the full reality of these things, but I can see enough that it leaves me in complete awe of the plans, the mercy, and love that God has for us.

You are not alone in that regard. We are probably just scratching the surface of God's Word. They probably have far deeper meaning than we can imagine since His words have been purified 7X. Of course, there's also the danger of putting meanings into them that He never intended.

[Jeff W.]

Yes, but this unity and oneness with God is an ongoing process that could be easily broken...

[Felix Florimon]

All chiefs but where and who are the Indians?

Quote:

I have a hard time grasping the full reality of these things, but I can see enough that it leaves me in complete awe of the plans, the mercy, and love that God has for us.

You are not alone in that regard. We are probably just scratching the surface of God's Word. They probably have far deeper meaning than we can imagine since His words have been purified 7X. Of course, there's also the danger of putting meanings into them that He never intended.

[Felix Florimon]

Originally Posted By: Felix Florimon

Yes, but this unity and oneness with God is an ongoing process that could be easily broken...

Yes, absolutely, our oneness with Christ can be broken if we do not continue seeking out and acting on God's will. Here are some more texts referring to the need to continue following him.

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2 John 1:9 - Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

John 15:6 - If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

1 John 2:24 - As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

I fully agree.

FF

[Jeff W.]

Our unity with Jesus on the same level as that of the Son and the Father? I don't know about that. Their "oneness" is probably on a higher/deeper level, just as our holiness can never be on the same level as God holiness when Jesus said, ESV | ýMt 5:48 "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." This is to be thought of as being in the same manner and not exactly like because no creature can never be equal with his Creator.

[Gerr]

I cannot/do not envision man (who was made lower than angels and created after the angels) ruling over angels, unless you mean the evil angels and also the wicked dead whom the saints will judge during the millenium.

[Jeff W.]

I cannot/do not envision man (who was made lower than angels and created after the angels) ruling over angels, unless you mean the evil angels and also the wicked dead whom the saints will judge during the millenium.

Yeah, on second thought it is speculation to assign much detail to who or what the saved will rule over. As far as I know, the Bible does not say.

[Felix Florimon]

I cannot/do not envision man (who was made lower than angels and created after the angels) ruling over angels, unless you mean the evil angels and also the wicked dead whom the saints will judge during the millenium.

Gerry:

It is a new creation. Adam, when he was created and the angels that existed during Adam's creation, could never fully understand the greatness of God's love for His creatures in the same manner than the redeemed human race will understand it. Such deeper experience and understanding of God's love and character plus having a physical body that is able to travel faster than the speed of light (based on today's science, nothing could travel faster than light) to the farthest corners of the universe is an indication that the redeemed human race will be given much greater abilities than humans had, in the beginning, just after Adam was created. We need to remember, that at this time, Jesus considers His followers one earth as brothers and sisters and that He shared with us a weak physical body on earth so we could share a similar glorified physical body as He will have in the New Earth, the new center of God's government for the entire universe. I don't feel that anyone looking at Jesus in the New Earth will feel that He decided to spend and eternity being lower than the created angels but that those that followed Him will share a similar glorious body as the Son of God making us siblings of the Great Creator. Don't you find this something wonderful to live for?

FF

[Jeff W.]

There will be only one Chief because regardless how close we sit to God in His throne, only God is omniscient and there will always be things beyond our truthful knowledge that only God will know; things that we will later know by having Him to share such knowledge wit us. God will always be the "Commanding Chief" because He will always have unlimited knowledge while we will eternally be growing in knowledge.

If the heavenly structure could be compared to an organizational chart, the Father would be the president, Jesus would be the vice president and believers would be directors, sort of like this:

Father

|

Jesus

|

Believers

Jesus acts completely within the bounds of the Father's will, and believers act completely within the bounds of Jesus' will. Like you already shared, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 is one of the clearest verses showing the relation between the Father's authority and the Son. Jesus said, "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." (John 5:30) Then speaking about believers he said, "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5)

[joeb]

Jeff W.,

I really don't see a problem with your conclusions about the book of John. I'd also like to invite you to read Jones' and Waggoner's writings on righteousness by faith in the thread entitled Lessons on Faith. I think you will find a lot of support for what you find in John in Jones' and Waggoner's writings.

What I see as your basic premise for John is "the just shall live by faith".

[Jeff W.]

I really don't see a problem with your conclusions about the book of John. I'd also like to invite you to read Jones' and Waggoner's writings on righteousness by faith in the thread entitled Lessons on Faith. I think you will find a lot of support for what you find in John in Jones' and Waggoner's writings.

What I see as your basic premise for John is "the just shall live by faith".

Hi Joe, thanks for the invite to the Jones and Waggoner thread. I started reading through it and, like you say, it is right in line with the things I have been studying about unity with Christ. As I understand it, this message of oneness with Christ is the message of righteousness by faith.

I like the part in the Jones and Waggoner thread about praying according to God’s will. Really, there is only one prerequisite for having guaranteed answers to our prayers. Jesus said, “If you ask the Father for anything in my name, he will give it to you.” (John 16:23) Many Christians add the phrase, “In Jesus’ name,” to the end of their prayers as though it were an incantation that obligates the Father to give them their wishes. However, asking in Jesus’ name means to ask as one person with him, fully under his authority and in accordance with his will. Multiple times the Bible describes this prerequisite from different angles to draw a more complete picture of what it means to ask in Jesus’ name. Synonyms for praying in Jesus’ name include to:

1. Believe and not doubt.

“If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.” (James 1:5-8)

2. Keep his commandments and do what is pleasing in his sight.

“Whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do the things that are pleasing in his sight.” (1 John 3:22)

3. Abide in Jesus and have his words abide in us.

“If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.” (John 15:7)

4. Ask according to his will.

“This is the confidence which we have before him, that, if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.” (1 John 5:14)

This has really changed the way I pray. While I still make requests of all sorts, even about things where his will is uncertain, I especially try to search out his will and pray according to it. The things I know for sure are his will usually have to do with obedience, and when I ask him, he has always come through with strength or courage or ability to put his teaching into practice.

[Gail]

Well done! There are some here that memorise Scripture. When those words (God's word plus the principles inherent in them) abide in the heart it DOES change the way we pray.

Lessons on Faith explains how God's word changes us to align us in unity with Christ. That is where the power is, that plus the Holy Spirit impressing upon us how he wills.

[joeb]

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I've had some questions about that passage. Since it applies to every overcomer, and since everyone who will be in the kingdom will have to be an overcomer, if everyone is going to rule with Christ, who will they be ruling over? All chiefs but where and who are the Indians?

Seems to me, Gerry, that you have misunderstood the entire situation or you would not have asked the questions you did.

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Matthew 20:27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

We are to be servants of each other, and of everyone in the universe.

[Jeff W.]

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Matthew 20:27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

We are to be servants of each other, and of everyone in the universe.

I like that perspective - the higher our authority, the greater should be our service. If you think about it, when Christ’s Spirit dwells within two people, making them one with Christ, this also makes them one with each other. It is critically important then that we love fellow believers, because how we love them is how Christ will consider that we loved him.

To those who ministered to his brethren he will one day say, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.” (Matthew 25:40) Jesus considers acts done to any of his brethren as done to him. No matter how weak or insignificant a person may seem to be, if that person has the Spirit of Christ dwelling in his heart, then whatever befalls that person also befalls Christ. If that person is mistreated, Christ is mistreated. If someone does a kind deed to that person, the kind deed was, of a truth, done to Christ. When Saul was persecuting the church Jesus confronted him saying, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” (Acts 9:4) By persecuting those who were one with Jesus, Saul was literally persecuting Jesus himself. Because of this reality Jesus could say things like, “Where two or three have gathered together in my name, I am there in their midst.” (Matthew 18:20) He is there in the person of the people who are there in his name, the ones who have his Spirit dwelling within them. He could also say, “Whoever receives one child like this in my name receives me; and whoever receives me does not receive me, but him who sent me.” (Mark 9:37) When we see another follower of Christ we are seeing Christ. When we go to church we are gathering with other members of Christ. When we serve other believers we are serving Christ.

Love for God especially leads to love for the children of God. According to the apostle John, “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of him.” (1 John 5:1) Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ, whoever counts Jesus worth obeying and passionately presses on to know and do his will, that person is born of God. Those who are sons of God are siblings of one another, or as the Bible says, they are ‘brothers’. Those who do not love their brothers show that they do not love God because they do not love the ones in whom God’s Spirit dwells. John wrote, “If someone says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.” (1 John 4:20) In strong language he declared, “We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.” (1 John 3:14)

We should not just love our brothers, we should love them fervently. Peter counseled, “Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart.” (1 Peter 1:22) The level of love that Peter refers to here is not just an occasional sacrifice but an ongoing sacrifice where we sustain very real losses multiple times a day. It is the level of sacrifice a mother makes for her baby when she nurses him every three hours through the night, washes his laundry, bathes him, changes his diapers and endures being spit up on. She does all of this at immense expense to her own time, fun and money, and the baby cannot even express gratitude. However, she loves her baby. She may bend over the crib and whisper, “I love you,” but her love goes far beyond mere words. John said, “Let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.” (1 John 3:18)