The BIG Issue

[Stan]

The BIG ISSUE is not, who is the anti-christ, or who is the King of the North, or who is the 144,000 the big issue is:

WHY is there so much pain and suffering?

[olger]

Great question Stanislaus.

[Kevin H]

Because God is love. Love requires risk and freedom for someone to be free to love you back or to not love you back.

God hold back the worst and took it upon himself upon the cross, being the infinite God the trinity suffered in an infinite amount. At the end of time the lost will suffer the maximum of their finite possibility because God will not force their will.

This that we have in between is sort of like the theory behind a vaccination, being given a weakened dose and a weakened suffering to not get the full disease.

[VeritatisCupitor]

That is something I always wondered about. A god who claims he is all about love and forgiveness yet he allows the world and his people to suffer through all this.

I can't say I understand or accept the manner in which he allows sins to cause such suffering or the manner in which he gives choices without giving the knowledge for men to understand the implications of their decision. The wages of sin is death that is all is mentioned, not the method not the duration and certainly not how sin is passed on through the generations.

I can't say his methods inspire any confidence in his leadership.

[Ted Oplinger]

We do have a Creator who is love and honesty, mercy and justice, personified. We also know this Creator has allowed Himself to be tried by the intelligent sentients of His Creation, as He has been accused of being the exact opposite of what He is in character.

Throughout this trial, the Adversary has tried hard to create every single miserable circumstance for man, to demonstrate God's handling of man leads only to unhappiness, pain suffering, injustice, and death - but these are the very things the Adversary himself is responsible for.

Now that he has lost his case against Christ, the Adversary now focuses on creating as much pain and suffering as possible, blaming God for it, then taking as many people down with him as possible.

Every tragic event has a false narrative associated with it with the goal of blaming God for it. However, there is evidence behind each one which belies the false narrative, and shows God is vindicated in His dealings, using even these pains, sufferings, and deaths to reach out to people and bring them to Himself in love.

Last month, on September 11, I heard on our local radio station the audio of the following link. One of the most horrible tragedies on pain, suffering, and death occurred on that date 12 years ago. While the theology at points is entirely correct (ie, going to heaven upon death), it makes two points crystal clear: 1) God is not to blame, but is trying to turn the event into a blessing for your eternal good, and 2) now is the time to listen to God, so you are prepared for the day our Adversary's attention gets turned to YOU.

I was with you when...

Daniel 7:13-14 - the vindication of God foretold

Revelation 4:10-11 - humanity's own vindication of God

Revelation 4:11-14 - the verdict of all sentient beings on the conflict between Christ and His Adversary, vindicating Father and Son.

Daniel 7:26, 27 - the vindication of God's people foretold

Revelation 15:4 - God's people are vindicated

God is vindicated in this mess of pain, suffering, and death we currently see here - but He is there...can you feel His presence, hear His voice?

Blessings,

[Windsor]

At the end of the day, there is not a great explanation for us in this life as to why there is suffering. After all, none of us ever ate from the tree of knowledge. We were all born with a propensity to sin unlike Adam.

I just take comfort in the fact that this life is short and that when we've been in heaven for 10,000 years or even 1 day, the pain of this life will be a distant memory. When Ellen White was in vision, she had just arrived in Heaven after the Second Coming of Christ. She saw Fitch and Stockman, two Millerites who had died shortly before the Great Disappointment. They asked her all that she had been through since they died. Here is her response:

"We tried to call up our greatest trials, but they looked so small compared with the far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory that surrounded us that we could not speak them out, and we all cried out, “Alleluia, heaven is cheap enough!” and we touched our glorious harps and made heaven’s arches ring."

[LifeHiscost]

VeritatisCupitor, I can't say all the answers for the great controversy between Christ and satan can be found in this approximately 1-1/2 hour dissertation, but it helped me to put some of the pieces together. And considering this man came from an atheist background beginning at the age of ten, with hate in his heart for God, you'll find it easy to see in him a great store of knowledge seldom found in one individual.

http://amazingdiscoveries.tv/media/48/501-the-secret-behind-secret-societies/

"Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. I will be found by you,

declares the Lord, ‘and I will restore your fortunes and will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will bring you back to the place from where I sent you into exile.’" Jeremiah 29:12-14 NASB

So long as one chooses to order the Lord of Glory around, it is doubtful one will receive the answers for which they are looking.

"Learn to do good;

Seek justice,

Reprove the ruthless,

Defend the orphan,

Plead for the widow.

“Come now, and let us reason together,”

Says the Lord,

“Though your sins are as scarlet,

They will be as white as snow;

Though they are red like crimson,

They will be like wool.

“If you consent and obey,

You will eat the best of the land;

“But if you refuse and rebel,

You will be devoured by the sword.”

Truly, the mouth of the Lord has spoken."

Isaiah 1:17-20 NASB

God cares!

[M. T. Cross]

WHY is there so much pain and suffering?

Not because there is a God that has failed, not because there is a Devil causing it.

Its because people make choices. People choose to inflict suffering, people succumb to their ego, to their greed. We choose to live out of harmony with each other, with the "Divine" (however you want to classify that), out of harmony with the planet that is our home. Then rather than take responsibility for the mess we have made for ourselves, we look to blame some God, some Devil, and most certainly everyone else around us.

[Kevin H]

There was a horrible disease called Smallpox. Then in the 1700s there were horrible doctors who would go to patients who were recovering from smallpox, cut them and run thread through their blood then would go to perfectly healthy people who had never had smallpox and cut them and run through that cut the thread from the smallpox patients. How horrible to have these perfectly healthy people suffer the knife cut and have small pox be given to them...

Then there was a horrible disease called Polio. And along came a horrible doctor named Jonas Salk who actually began to give perfectly healthy people the germ that caused Polio, how horrible.

And there is the horrible disease called sin, and along came a horrible God who allowed the universe to have a controlled exposure to sin, how horrible...

[olger]

There is a devil according to the Scripture, who has a goal to wrack and ruin the world. Nothing is more plain in Scripture.

Isaiah 14, Ezekiel 28.

That said, our choices decide our destiny. Notice these divine words:

"But unless we do yield ourselves to the control of Christ, we shall be dominated by the wicked one. We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world. It is not necessary for us deliberately to choose the service of the kingdom of darkness in order to come under its dominion. We have only to neglect to ally ourselves with the kingdom of light."

Rejoice always,

`oG

[Gibs]

There is so much pain and suffering because we are sinners sold under sin. The penalty for sin is death.

If Christ would have failed we would not even be here today, we only live because of Him and we can only really live the true life with His Merits to cover us, His righteousness imputed, accounted to us.

We do not see ourselves as we ought, we hold ourselves far too highly.

Paul the apostle saw all this when he exclaimed, "I consent unto the law that it is good." "The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." But he added, in the bitterness of his soul-anguish and despair, "I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:16, 12, 14. He longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which in himself he was powerless to attain, and cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages. To all, there is but one answer, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. {SC 19.1}

Many are the figures by which the Spirit of God has sought to illustrate this truth, and make it plain to souls that long to be freed from the burden of guilt. When, after his sin in deceiving Esau, Jacob fled from his father's home, he was weighed down with a sense

of guilt. Lonely and outcast as he was, separated from all that had made life dear, the one thought that above all others pressed upon his soul, was the fear that his sin had cut him off from God, that he was forsaken of Heaven. In sadness he lay down to rest on the bare earth, around him only the lonely hills, and above, the heavens bright with stars. As he slept, a strange light broke upon his vision; and lo, from the plain on which he lay, vast shadowy stairs seemed to lead upward to the very gates of heaven, and upon them angels of God were passing up and down; while from the glory above, the divine voice was heard in a message of comfort and hope. Thus was made known to Jacob that which met the need and longing of his soul--a Saviour. With joy and gratitude he saw revealed a way by which he, a sinner, could be restored to communion with God. The mystic ladder of his dream represented Jesus, the only medium of communication between God and man. {SC 19.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[fccool]

The BIG ISSUE is not, who is the anti-christ, or who is the King of the North, or who is the 144,000 the big issue is:

WHY is there so much pain and suffering?

Because human experience demands it.

From a purely philosophical POV, suffering is a perspective, but pain is real. Both are a necessity of human experience. Without pain, we would quickly destroy our body... since pain is a problem indicator. Without suffering, we'd hardly have any motivation to get out of bed. What would you do if you enjoyed everything, and nothing made you suffer? There's no contrast in such life. There's nothing meaningful to learn. Everything becomes a mere didactic experience. There's difference about reading about a wife or a child dying, and your child dying in your arms. I wouldn't wish it for anyone, but these are the experiences that end up shaping us the most.

In terms of a philosophical example, the players on the football field take an enormous amount of beating. Would you amount their experience to suffering? They seem to enjoy quite a bit of it. They don't enjoy the pain, but they surely come back to "suffer" again and again.

Put any regular untrained person on the field, and they will suffer tremendously.

The point being is that suffering is an indispensable part of human experience. We can either lament about it, or we can accept it as normal, and learn to enjoy it and view it as a challenge to overcome.

Likewise, we can talk about starving children in Africa, and we can talk about starving Yogis in India. Which of them suffer more? Suffering is a perspective. Pain is a necessary signal from our body to our conscious selves.

So many people on this thread reduce the effect of suffering to "sin", but not in a proper sense of "sin". "Sin" is an essential human limitation of knowledge. Lack of having proper knowledge and ability to avoid pain at all times.

For example, let's say that humans could see 2 minutes into the future, and could fly. That would certainly alleviate quite a bit of suffering due to earthquakes, but that would diminish quite a bit of experience related to suffering. Experience and true knowledge require suffering.

Let's say that today we'd eliminate all of the suffering on the planet forever. What experience would humans ever have? All of our experience is driven by avoiding suffering. All of our progress depends on it. All of our quest for knowledge demands it. All of the technology advances exist because of it.

For example, coming from a perspective of an athlete who "suffered" quite a bit, If someone presented me with a scenario in which I could do the very same amount of knowledge and advancement simply by saying "yes", or taking a pill - I wouldn't do that. There's tremendous amount of knowledge, and perspective gained by gradually working through obstacles. There's a tremendous amount of insight and appreciation gained from being on the opposite side of "pleasure", because one can't really appreciate pleasure, if one can't contrast it with something else.

IMO suffering has very little to do with sin, and more to do with our need to learn from our experience, and ask certain questions that will lead us to divine essense of life, and thus lead us to God.

[Windsor]

Originally Posted By: Stan

The BIG ISSUE is not, who is the anti-christ, or who is the King of the North, or who is the 144,000 the big issue is:

WHY is there so much pain and suffering?

Because human experience demands it.

From a purely philosophical POV, suffering is a perspective, but pain is real. Both are a necessity of human experience. Without pain, we would quickly destroy our body... since pain is a problem indicator. Without suffering, we'd hardly have any motivation to get out of bed. What would you do if you enjoyed everything, and nothing made you suffer? There's no contrast in such life. There's nothing meaningful to learn. Everything becomes a mere didactic experience. There's difference about reading about a wife or a child dying, and your child dying in your arms. I wouldn't wish it for anyone, but these are the experiences that end up shaping us the most.

In terms of a philosophical example, the players on the football field take an enormous amount of beating. Would you amount their experience to suffering? They seem to enjoy quite a bit of it. They don't enjoy the pain, but they surely come back to "suffer" again and again.

Put any regular untrained person on the field, and they will suffer tremendously.

The point being is that suffering is an indispensable part of human experience. We can either lament about it, or we can accept it as normal, and learn to enjoy it and view it as a challenge to overcome.

Likewise, we can talk about starving children in Africa, and we can talk about starving Yogis in India. Which of them suffer more? Suffering is a perspective. Pain is a necessary signal from our body to our conscious selves.

So many people on this thread reduce the effect of suffering to "sin", but not in a proper sense of "sin". "Sin" is an essential human limitation of knowledge. Lack of having proper knowledge and ability to avoid pain at all times.

For example, let's say that humans could see 2 minutes into the future, and could fly. That would certainly alleviate quite a bit of suffering due to earthquakes, but that would diminish quite a bit of experience related to suffering. Experience and true knowledge require suffering.

Let's say that today we'd eliminate all of the suffering on the planet forever. What experience would humans ever have? All of our experience is driven by avoiding suffering. All of our progress depends on it. All of our quest for knowledge demands it. All of the technology advances exist because of it.

For example, coming from a perspective of an athlete who "suffered" quite a bit, If someone presented me with a scenario in which I could do the very same amount of knowledge and advancement simply by saying "yes", or taking a pill - I wouldn't do that. There's tremendous amount of knowledge, and perspective gained by gradually working through obstacles. There's a tremendous amount of insight and appreciation gained from being on the opposite side of "pleasure", because one can't really appreciate pleasure, if one can't contrast it with something else.

IMO suffering has very little to do with sin, and more to do with our need to learn from our experience, and ask certain questions that will lead us to divine essense of life, and thus lead us to God.

The unfallen beings do quite well never having experienced pain or suffering.

[Kevin H]

Windsor, actually although the unfallen beings choose not to sin, they still had to deal with who knows how long, of hearing Lucifer's questions, discussing his questions and needing to decide whether to stay faithful or to join the rebellion. They had to deal with angels who they loved and respected making the wrong choice. They had a ring side seat in seeing Eve and Adam eat the fruit and the events that have been happening here on earth. They saw what was happening to Jesus. They closed their probation at the cross. But what is worst suffering, to go through something yourself, or to see a loved one go through it? They do not have the physical illness and death that we experience, but they are very much experiencing pain and suffering as they are going through the issues of the great controversy.

[LifeHiscost]

They saw what was happening to Jesus. They closed their probation at the cross. But what is worst suffering, to go through something yourself, or to see a loved one go through it? They do not have the physical illness and death that we experience, but they are very much experiencing pain and suffering as they are going through the issues of the great controversy.

You are so right. Each time my wife hears described the story of the crucifixion, or especially sees it portrayed about Jesus, she weeps because Jesus has captured her heart and she virtually is watching her best Friend be murdered before her eyes.

God cares!

[Windsor]

Windsor, actually although the unfallen beings choose not to sin, they still had to deal with who knows how long, of hearing Lucifer's questions, discussing his questions and needing to decide whether to stay faithful or to join the rebellion. They had to deal with angels who they loved and respected making the wrong choice. They had a ring side seat in seeing Eve and Adam eat the fruit and the events that have been happening here on earth. They saw what was happening to Jesus. They closed their probation at the cross. But what is worst suffering, to go through something yourself, or to see a loved one go through it? They do not have the physical illness and death that we experience, but they are very much experiencing pain and suffering as they are going through the issues of the great controversy.

I'm sure there is emotional stress to some degree throughout the universe on account of this planet. However, Lucifer never had to sin in the first place nor did Adam and Eve. If sin had never entered the universe, there would still be a point to life that did not include any pain or suffering whatsoever.

[Kevin H]

As I understand the Bible and Mrs. White, while Lucifer and Adam and Eve did not have to sin, there were still the questions as to whether or not God deserved our faith, is God really the creator God and thus having a right to place a law over us, or a tyrant imposing a law on us. And if God really is God is God able to be both just and merciful. It was possible to answer these questions on an intellectual level, and Lucifer could have become professor of evil at New Jerusalem Union College. Somehow the death of Jesus would have still needed to be played out. We have turned the death of Jesus into a point of legalism and thus only necessary for him to be the perfect legalist in our place. But the death of Jesus was for both we sinners and the angels and unfallen worlds. Whether it was intellectual or experienceal, suffering had a role to pray in the maturing of the universe.

[fccool]

Quote:

The unfallen beings do quite well never having experienced pain or suffering.

It's like saying that blind people can do quite well without seeing color.

Our lives are based on experience. How can you explain color to the blind? How can you explain consequence of suffering to people who never felt pain?

It's silly. Only when you felt pain and suffering, the concept of good and evil becomes meaningful.

Sure, you can vaguely understand the concept indirectly. You can say that a person can imagine how difficult it would be to get around with no legs, but it has very little meaning in context of suffering and pain, because there's nothing internal to contrast such idea to. In such context, a person may say - well, fish doesn't have any legs... so I'll be ok. If there's no experience of difficulty and strife - these concepts are meaningless.

How can you explain to a person what pain is, who have no concept of such idea? Is so, why should they ever be concerned with such idea, if they have no relative means to understand it?

And that's just educational and epistemological aspect of the issue. Then there's growth from experience issue.

For you to issue a blanket statement "They do quite well", when you have no idea what these beings are like, is an argument from ignorance.

[fccool]

Quote:

They had a ring side seat in seeing Eve and Adam eat the fruit and the events that have been happening here on earth. They saw what was happening to Jesus. They closed their probation at the cross. But what is worst suffering, to go through something yourself, or to see a loved one go through it? They do not have the physical illness and death that we experience, but they are very much experiencing pain and suffering as they are going through the issues of the great controversy.

You can't relate to a vicarious notions of something that you have no clue would feel like. We relate and feel compassionate, because we understand what it feels like to suffer by means of direct experience.

In fact, that's the whole basis for Christian theology - God suffered as means to reconciliation, and to demonstrate love.

If there's no need, then there's no need to give anything. If there's absolute abundance, then any concept of giving is a meaningless gesture. It's like rich people exchanging gifts of something that they already have in abundance.

Love makes sense in deficiency. That's where love becomes apparent the most. A baby is born absolutely defenseless, and is in complete need of love, because it suffers quite a bit to to lack of knowledge and ability. Love is necessary in case of lack of ability or abundance.

In a world where everything is plentiful, love is just a meaningless gesture.

[Stan]

I would have a tough time reading some of that to someone who is going through hell because some pervert abused their child.

Or someone who had their child run over by their car backing up.

Or a little girl wanting to know why her mommy died in childbirth.

[Kevin H]

I hope that they will record this and sell copies, but for the question of this topic, besides the chapters "Why Was Sin Permitted" "The Origin of Evil" and "It is Finished" and lectures in college based on these chapters; what Dr. Fleming presents is some of the best in answering "the BIG issue" If any of you can attend you will really find this a blessing. Stan, I hope that you can attend!

Biblical Resources, LLC

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Explorations In Antiquity Center

Looking for some answers? Come to our Fall Conference, November 4-6, 2013! Dr. Fleming will be teaching on "God's Presence in Difficult Circumstances" and will also lead a tour through our NEW Biblical Life Artifacts Gallery. Register before November 1, 2013 and only pay $75! For more info, call: 706-885-0363

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote:

WHY is there so much pain and suffering?

We as humans create much of our own suffering, mostly from our inborn selfishness, and, the rest from our inability to isolate or cure diseases.

Although it's tragic to us in these days, in the next life all particulars of our former life, including the memory of pain and suffering and death, will be erased from our memories. Once forgotten, it will be as though these blights of life never existed.

If we blame God for the calamities that befall us, we join the Evil One's team of malcontents who also blame the creator of all things good for the evil they themselves have created. Through their demonic, telepathic control, they turn men into murderous monsters, creating ever-widening waves of sorrow across our planet.