Commandments or Not?

[Bird's Eye View]

I posted a question in a thread that might not be considered a place for discussion, considering the Copy and Paste nature of the continuing posts.

So, rather that disrupt the flow, I decided to ask my question here and see if I can understand what the thinking is, because it has really soured my thinking on what it means to be a Christian, when seemingly it is more and more required to practice Jewishness.

I've already ceased believing that the Sabbath was meant for Gentiles, but that isn't my issue.

The original post I replied to is as follows, with my question following that. That is the question I am seeking input toward, as I would really love to hear others opinions on this. Thanks.

From

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/667970/Re_Ask_the_Rabbi.html#Post667970

2 Cheshvan

Seven Laws of Noah

I love the Jewish people and have enjoyed reading the many spiritual thoughts on your website. I want to draw closer to God, but from what I’ve read it is a very big commitment to convert. I don’t think I am up for this at this stage in my life. Is there some way to tap into the Torah wisdom without being part of the Jewish people?

The Aish Rabbi Replies:

Thank you for your inspiring words.

A person does not need to become Jewish to reach high spiritual levels, establish a relationship with God, and earn a reward in the world to come. Enoch "walked with God" and Noah had quite a high level of relationship, though neither were Jewish. Our tradition is that all of the 70 nations must function together and play an integral part in that "being" called humanity.

The Torah presents seven mitzvot for non-Jews to observe. These seven laws are the pillars of human civilization, and are named the "Seven Laws of Noah," since all humans are descended from Noah. Alas, many have forgotten these in the passage of time. Perhaps the best that we can do is to encourage all peoples to keep these and then it would indeed become a very different world. As explained in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 58b), they are:

1) Do not murder.

2) Do not steal.

3) Do not worship false gods.

4) Do not be sexually immoral.

5) Do not eat the limb removed from a live animal.

6) Do not curse God.

7) Set up courts and bring offenders to justice.

Maimonides explains that any human being who faithfully observes these laws earns a proper place in heaven. So you see, the Torah is for all humanity, no conversion necessary.

As well, when King Solomon built the Holy Temple in Jerusalem, he specifically asked God to heed the prayer of non-Jews who come to the Temple (1-Kings 8:41-43). The Temple was the universal center of spirituality, which the prophet Isaiah referred to as a "house for all nations." Non-Jews were welcome to bring offerings to the Temple as well. In fact, the service in the Holy Temple during the week of Sukkot featured a total of 70 bull offerings, corresponding to each of the 70 nations of the world. In fact, the Talmud says that if the Romans would have realized how much they were benefiting from the Temple, they never would have destroyed it!

Today, there are many active groups of non-Jews called "Bnei Noach" who faithfully observe the Seven Laws of Noah. Here are some websites (though I cannot vouch for their authenticity):

www.wikinoah.org

www.noahidenations.com

www.noachide.org.uk

www.1stcovenant.org

There are two excellent books on the topic:

"Path of the Righteous Gentile" by Chaim Clorfene and Yakov Rogalsky

"Seven Colors of the Rainbow" by Rabbi Yirmeyahu Bindman

You will also enjoy this interview with someone who faithfully follows the Laws of Noah: www.aish.com/jw/s/80405497.html

May the Almighty grant you blessings and success in your spiritual search.

My Question was:

What do those Seven Laws of Noah mean for Gentiles who think they are to keep the Ten Commandments?

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[Gibs]

First BEV, the writing is not from the Bible of which as Christians is not our guide and second Jesus Himself taught that not one JOT or TITTLE would be removed from the law.

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So we see it will stand forever and note also the Sabbath command is in that law.

The ten commandments law is known as the Royal Law and the Law of Liberty of which is stated we will be judged by!

The Bible, the KJV being preferred is the Christians guide and don't be led astray reading and believing any other over it.

To many it is dangerous to be dwelling in many of these old writings!

Most have too big a job of just grasping the Holy Bible and obtaining his Salvation from it, of which it is the only Guide. It is your treasure chest that won't fail you!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Bird's Eye View]

I agree, the Talmud is anything but "Christian", assuming Christianity is Pro-Jesus Christ!

It doesn't make sense to me what it is doing being posted about in a positive way on a Christian forum.

The Noahide Laws themselves are very anti-Christian, if you really study what they are about.

[phkrause]

I agree, the Talmud is anything but "Christian", assuming Christianity is Pro-Jesus Christ!

Of course the Talmud is anything but "Christian!" its written by Jews!!!!!!!!!! Assuming Christianity is Pro-Jesus???? If not what are they???????????? To even be called "Christians" they need to be followers! So you need to decide that for your self, are Christians following him or not?? If not than I'd definitely

Originally Posted By: Bird's Eye View

It doesn't make sense to me what it is doing being posted about in a positive way on a Christian forum.

I'd be interested myself in seeing where its being posted as a positive way??????

Originally Posted By: Bird's Eye View

The Noahide Laws themselves are very anti-Christian, if you really study what they are about.

Can you show from the Bible as to where they are anti Christian??? As a matter of fact, can you show from the Bible that they are listed as "Noahic Laws????"

Now to just mentioned my reason for posting Jewish sayings on a "Christian" website. Because I can, and most importantly, just to show a Jewish perspective. And by the way, they did write the Bible, did they not????? Or do you know of someone else who wrote it?? Besides, any Bible we read today has Jewish roots, not Christian roots! And there commentaries of the Bible are just as valid as other commentaries.

[Bird's Eye View]

No, actually, I don't suppose you would be able to find them (Laws of Noah) in the Bible, not that I'm aware of anyway.

(That's the thing about the Talmud, it's more of an "interpretive" kind of thing, but I assume you might know more about that than I do. I don't keep up with all the Jewish History or what the Rabbis have to say, but I see they are regular features here.)

Yes, I know Christianity is "Pro-Jesus Christ". (Duh!) I just find the Talmud to have the most vile things said about Christ, (See: "The Talmud Unmasked" http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud1.htm ), so maybe I missed the Disclaimer somewhere in that thread. I got the impression these threads on Jewish History and Ask a Rabbi to be very Pro-Jewish is all. And the Talmud is not Pro-Jesus Christ. So, for a Christian site, as I think this is, it just has me a little dismayed is all. The two don't seem to go together very well.

[Bird's Eye View]

P.S.

I probably wouldn't have even mentioned it, except the Seven Laws for Gentiles stood out in such stark contrast at a site that embraces the Ten Commandments for all people, not just the Jew.

[Bird's Eye View]

While we're discussing it, I find this 5th one to be rather disgusting AND insulting!

5) Do not eat the limb removed from a live animal.

Does this assume Gentiles are going to just "remove limbs from live animals", and if so, they'd better be sure to not eat them?!

(I think the "shocked" emoticon should go here__________!!!)

[Bird's Eye View]

Just a little FYI about the Noahide Laws. I find it interesting..."bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization"...?..."return the world to the values contained in the Noahide Laws"...?

Most people think of the Ten Commandments being the foundation of Christian America, not the Noahide Laws. How many knew these were signed into recognition?

There is more to this than meets the eye!!!

H.J.RES.104 -- To designate March 26, 1991, as `Education Day, U.S.A.'. (Enrolled Bill [Final as Passed Both House and Senate] - ENR)

--H.J.Res.104--

H.J.Res.104

One Hundred Second Congress of the United States of America

AT THE FIRST SESSION

Begun and held at the City of Washington on Thursday, the third day of January,

one thousand nine hundred and ninety-one

Joint Resolution

To designate March 26, 1991, as `Education Day, U.S.A.'.

Whereas Congress recognizes the historical tradition of ethical values and principles which are the basis of civilized society and upon which our great Nation was founded;

Whereas these ethical values and principles have been the bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization, when they were known as the Seven Noahide Laws;

Whereas without these ethical values and principles the edifice of civilization stands in serious peril of returning to chaos;

Whereas society is profoundly concerned with the recent weakening of these principles that has resulted in crises that beleaguer and threaten the fabric of civilized society;

Whereas the justified preoccupation with these crises must not let the citizens of this Nation lose sight of their responsibility to transmit these historical ethical values from our distinguished past to the generations of the future;

Whereas the Lubavitch movement has fostered and promoted these ethical values and principles throughout the world;

Whereas Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, leader of the Lubavitch movement, is universally respected and revered and his eighty-ninth birthday falls on March 26, 1991;

Whereas in tribute to this great spiritual leader, `the rebbe', this, his ninetieth year will be seen as one of `education and giving', the year in which we turn to education and charity to return the world to the moral and ethical values contained in the Seven Noahide Laws; and

Whereas this will be reflected in an international scroll of honor signed by the President of the United States and other heads of state: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That March 26, 1991, the start of the ninetieth year of Rabbi Menachem Schneerson, leader of the worldwide Lubavitch movement, is designated as `Education Day, U.S.A.'. The President is requested to issue a proclamation calling upon the people of the United States to observe such day with appropriate ceremonies and activities.

Speaker of the House of Representatives.

Vice President of the United States and

President of the Senate.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c102:H.J.RES.104.ENR:

[Bird's Eye View]

I'm sorry to see people don't want to discuss this subject. It has been suggested that these laws will call for the beheading of Christians, once the Talmudic groundwork has been laid out and the NWO of the anti-christ is established.

Of course, Jesus told us if they did it to him, they would do it to us!

I'll spare the links to the support for this assertion. Just know that it does exist!