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Stan

This is a MUST READ for a couple of friends on mine...

"You carry matters to extremes and do harm to your own soul and to the truth. YOU MAKE THE TRUTH REPULSIVE AND CAUSE SOULS TO BE AFRAID OF IT. Let love soften your words and give tone to your actions, and you will find a change in those with whom you associate. There will be peace, union, and harmony, instead of strife, jealousy, and discord. Let love and tenderness be exercised, . . . and you will receive a blessing." {2T 439.1}
ChildofChrist, Naomi, hch and 7 others like this

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Truth is as well, those people who project that, HARDLY IF EVER ATTEND CHURCH, wolves in lambs clothing.

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People who feel so strongly for or against any organization most likely have invested a whole lot of time with that organization.

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"Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening]."1 Corinthians 13:7 AMP

I'd say more but I might end up incriminating myself.

"Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things."

Romans 2:2 NKJV

God cares! peace

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"You carry matters to extremes and do harm to your own soul and to the truth. YOU MAKE THE TRUTH REPULSIVE AND CAUSE SOULS TO BE AFRAID OF IT. Let love soften your words and give tone to your actions, and you will find a change in those with whom you associate. There will be peace, union, and harmony, instead of strife, jealousy, and discord. Let love and tenderness be exercised, . . . and you will receive a blessing." {2T 439.1}

I had to stay home from worship today as a result of the snowfall and so was able to run across the above in my spare time. It came to me that, despite the loud tone as above, I had forgotten what you had quoted. So I have a suggestion.

Whenever there seems to be more heat than light in a post, or some other especially grating influence from the same and it might be more acceptable if the post were mitigated, include the same quote at the bottom, superimposed by the moderators plainly identified, only in a gentle manner maybe like this.

moderator approved: You carry matters to extremes and do harm to your own soul and to the truth. YOU MAKE THE TRUTH REPULSIVE AND CAUSE SOULS TO BE AFRAID OF IT. Let love soften your words and give tone to your actions, and you will find a change in those with whom you associate. There will be peace, union, and harmony, instead of strife, jealousy, and discord. Let love and tenderness be exercised, . . . and you will receive a blessing." {2T 439.1}

The moderator can place the mitigation size according to the perceived offending post and still enable people not to feel they have sinned away there day of grace.

God cares! Jesus saves! peace

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"You carry matters to extremes and do harm to your own soul and to the truth. YOU MAKE THE TRUTH REPULSIVE AND CAUSE SOULS TO BE AFRAID OF IT. Let love soften your words and give tone to your actions, and you will find a change in those with whom you associate. There will be peace, union, and harmony, instead of strife, jealousy, and discord. Let love and tenderness be exercised, . . . and you will receive a blessing." {2T 439.1}
I bolded the part that I'm gonna say something about. A number of years ago, there was this guy at work, that never said anything to anybody. People would say hi and he'd just ignore them. So I decided that no matter what, I would always say hi, or have a nice day, etc., etc. Well eventually he came around and than no one could shut him up. :)
The Wanderer likes this

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Quote:
I bolded the part that I'm gonna say something about. A number of years ago, there was this guy at work, that never said anything to anybody. People would say hi and he'd just ignore them. So I decided that no matter what, I would always say hi, or have a nice day, etc., etc. Well eventually he came around and than no one could shut him up. :)
rollingsmile

Oh well, I guess you can't win them all. The next step for me as a Christian is to adapt, which might be like the Levite that passed on the other side of the road, or one can just say "that's interesting", and if one can't say that without lying, I'm out of suggested options until I think about it for awhile. thinking

God saves! Jesus cares! peace

Johann likes this

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"You carry matters to extremes and do harm to your own soul and to the truth. YOU MAKE THE TRUTH REPULSIVE AND CAUSE SOULS TO BE AFRAID OF IT. Let love soften your words and give tone to your actions, and you will find a change in those with whom you associate. There will be peace, union, and harmony, instead of strife, jealousy, and discord. Let love and tenderness be exercised, . . . and you will receive a blessing." {2T 439.1}

well, I won't sit here boldly behind my keyboard and say I do this all the time now, but this quote really works very well. I have been amazed at the results when I try it. PTL.

phkrause, JoeMo and Naomi like this

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Truth is as well, those people who project that, HARDLY IF EVER ATTEND CHURCH, wolves in lambs clothing.

I don't think church attendance is a prerequisite for being nice to others...

JoeMo likes this

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I don't think church attendance is a prerequisite for being nice to others...

Stan does not appear to be saying that in his comment. lol, I have personally met him and I am pretty sure he does not think quite like this. I think he is simply characterizing a type of person that the EGW passage is talking about. And if I am right, it is quite true. There is a large segment of non-attendees that sure do a lot of talkin about the church, and not usually very nice stuff.

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it didn't seem necessary to include the "church attendance" in CAPS remark when referring to folks who don't have anything nice to say about the church...  

and yes, I don't think Stan believes that church attendance is mandatory to be nice to people...

I shouldn't have even made a comment.

My bad.

The Wanderer likes this

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it didn't seem necessary to include the "church attendance" in CAPS remark when referring to folks who don't have anything nice to say about the church...  

and yes, I don't think Stan believes that church attendance is mandatory to be nice to people...

I shouldn't have even made a comment.

My bad.

I actually appreciate your comments and opinions here, so no worries on stating your opinion. Hard to tell sometimes what people mean and intend when you cant see their face or hear their voice and its just internet posts. Dont let me stop you please!! :D

rudywoofs (Pam) likes this

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It has always been a hard row to hoe.

Both Noah and Lot had to find the right balance.

Make the message to harsh or to urgent and get blown off as radical.

Or make the message too loving and watered down and it gets put off.

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Truth is as well, those people who project that, HARDLY IF EVER ATTEND CHURCH, wolves in lambs clothing.

Something I have noticed in my experiences is that often such ones pretend that they do attend church. A very interesting fact.

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On 10/28/2013 at 8:34 AM, Stan said:

Truth is as well, those people who project that, HARDLY IF EVER ATTEND CHURCH, wolves in lambs clothing.

Interesting that Stan has not weighed in to clarify what he meant by this since it seems to be a point of confusion for so many.  I intended to respond to this as soon as I read it, but as is my habit I read he rest of the thread first and my answer will be slightly modified as a result.

I interpreted this as being about those who speak harshly and drive others from church.  My assumption is that Stan was saying those are the people who hardly ever attend church.  I think we need a biblical perspective on this; after all, Jesus did speak on the matter and he was often not in the church when he did his teaching against the teachings of the leadership (possibly more often than when he was in the Temple or the synagogue teaching against the teachings of the leaders.)

Jesus often taught that the leadership of the temple and synagogues were the people most guilty of this behavior.  While I am not aware of Jesus ever making a direct reference to the prophecy of Ezekiel 34 in his teachings many such teachings show an intimate knowledge of this chapter and make indirect reference to it.  Probably the most direct teachings Jesus made on this subject were Matthew 23 & Luke 11, the seven woes.

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Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

The extra traditions of men add a great burden to the people.  And since they are traditions of men, not the law of God our failure to fulfill them is not a sin, yet these leaders tell us we are sinning against God by failing to do them.  The duty of all priests is to take up their crosses and follow Jesus.  This does not mean what Christians normally claim it does.  If you care to follow this through read my post here http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/topics/we-need-to-be-praying-hard-and-strong-for-our-denomination-we?commentId=1451550%3AComment%3A3490171 and the other of my posts that I reference in this passage.  It is not a light study and in some of those posts you will see me being harsh with the people addressed so maybe I am guilty of the thing Stan is calling to our attention here.  The basis for this study is the law of the sin offering, found scattered through the passage from Leviticus 4 through Leviticus 7, and the story of Nadab and Abihu, who died for their refusal to eat their portion of the sin offering and thus bear the sins of the congregation.  In the passage quoted above Jesus makes direct reference to this duty of the priesthood.  

We are usually taught that Nadab and Abihu were killed for going into the presence of God while they were drunk.  If we read the entire passage and see the conclusion of Moses investigation into this matter we find that drunk was the beginning assumption, but no further mention of drunkenness so that we cannot know whether this theory was proved or disproved.  We are not very often taught the importance of spiritual symbolism, most especially drunkenness, which I have never seen discussed anywhere other than my own teaching.  While this symbol is heavily used in prophecy I have never found it explicitly defined anywhere, but I have often found it to be closely related to self-righteousness.  There may be more to it than simple self-righteousness, but that is frequently a factor in this symbol.  When we do an examination of why priests will not bear the sins of the people we find that their own self-righteousness is a major part of the problem.  This was very common in Jesus day. These woes speak directly to that self-righteousness every time.  Yet these leaders are completely blind to the fact that they are the real problem in the church and they are the ones driving people out by their refusal to lift a finger to move the cumbersome loads these sinners bear.  They are only willing to add to those loads.

If I properly interpreted Stan's "truth" he is speaking of the people who grumble on the way out of the church after being badly mistreated by it and later seek to turn as many as possible away from it.  To those inside the synagogue of Satan these are the people seeking to keep other's away from their god, but God sees things a bit differently.  

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13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

The true followers of God are seldom found in the established church; this was even true of Jesus.  This started in the church in the wilderness shortly after Aaron built the golden calf.  

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7 Now Moses used to take the tent and pitch it outside the camp, a good distance from the camp, and he called it the tent of meeting. And everyone who sought the Lord would go out to the tent of meeting which was outside the camp. 8 And it came about, whenever Moses went out to the tent, that all the people would arise and stand, each at the entrance of his tent, and gaze after Moses until he entered the tent. 9 Whenever Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would descend and stand at the entrance of the tent; and the Lord would speak with Moses. 10 When all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance of the tent, all the people would arise and worship, each at the entrance of his tent. 11 Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses returned to the camp, his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.

Scholars are divided on whether this was the Tabernacle or another tent.  This hardly matters.  If it was the Tabernacle, it was removed from its place at the center of the camp because the people had rejected God and requested that Aaron build another god for them.  If it was another tent it was here that the people had to come to consult with God and Aaron and his sons served in a house that was desolate because they had given in to the people's demands and made a different god for the people.  Either way, you could not find God in the camp.  You had to go outside the camp to commune with God.  

In Eli's day God was again absent from the Tabernacle.  The ark was still there officially representing God's presence but the priests were teaching their own doctrines, thus worshiping a god of their own making, and the sons of Eli were very definitely feeding on the sheep instead of feeding the sheep.  This was a problem long before Ezekiel's day.  The leadership was driving the people away from God.  When they could not defeat the Philistines in battle they decided to bring the Ark of God to the battle and have him fight for them, invoking Numbers 10:35,

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Then it came about when the ark set out that Moses said,

     “Rise up, O Lord!
     And let Your enemies be scattered,
     And let those who hate You flee before You.”

There were two national enemies of God on the battlefield that day and the greater enemy was scattered before God, its priests killed.  The Ark of God was taken to the temple of Dagon and later sent out of the cities of the Philistines on an ox cart.  The Tabernacle remained desolate throughout the time of Samuel's judging and the reign of Saul.  God was not in the camp per se.   Samuel communed with him at his own house in Ramah.  The Tabernacle was removed from Shiloh and set up in Nob but the priests in that Tabernacle lacked the presence of God and depicted by the Ark of the Covenant.

Saul was anointed King only a few days before he was crowned king on the day of wheat harvest (Feast of Weeks, also known as wheat harvest and later as Pentecost -- Greek for the 50th day.)  As such he is the prophetic symbol of the Church during the age of Pentecost.  God had promised that the future King would come from the tribe of Judah, but because of Judah's sin with Tamar (Genesis 33) a period of 10 generations was required to cleanse the house of this sin.  Jesse's generation was not eligible to be King, and David, God's chosen, was not born until 10 years after Saul became king.  Saul received no training for being King, God simply thrust the responsibility on him.  Because he was crowned on Pentecost and is the symbol of the church of Pentecost we find that the church in this age rejected God just as Saul did.  When God finally rejected Saul in return in his 18th year as king God immediately had Samuel begin training David to be king.  He also sent an "evil spirit from God" upon Saul (1 Samuel 16:14, 15, 16, 23; 18:10, 19:9).  Saul's servants recognized this to be an evil spirit, but it is questionable whether Saul -- who was first inhabited by the Holy Spirit on the day he was anointed -- ever knew the difference.  Following the guidance of this spirit Saul tried to kill David more than once and as a result drove him from the royal court to the wilderness where David received most of his training to be king directly from the had of God.  He had received some in Saul's court and later received more in the court of one of the Philistine kings and in the town that king gave him to rule, but the vast majority of his training was in the wilderness, outside the camp (congregation) under God's direct guidance.

God's shekinah glory did inhabit Solomon's temple on the eighth day of the dedication ceremony which was on the eighth day of Tabernacles, 490 years after Israel entered the promised land.  Yet around 390 years later shortly before the fall of Jerusalem Ezekiel witnessed the departure of this glory from the temple in one of his early visions (Ezekiel 9-11)  The presence of God then rested on the top of the Mount of Olives until 10 days before the day of Pentecost (Feast of Weeks) in 33 AD when Jesus rose into the heavens.  It never inhabited the new temple in Jerusalem and when Jesus left the house for the last time in Matthew 23 he told the priests there that their house was left to them desolate (empty of the God they claimed inhabited it.)  He would never inhabit that house again because they refused to recognize him when he visited them.

On the Day of Pentecost in 33 AD the spirit once again came down to inhabit the New Covenant temple, the temple Jesus and Paul said would be built without hands (Mark 14:58, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 9:11), which Jesus said would be built in 3 days (3000 years -- see Psalm 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8), which Peter said was to be built with living stones (1 Peter 2:4) and that we are those living stones (1 Peter 2:5), and which temple Paul says "we are" both as individuals (1 Corinthians 6:19) and as a congregation (1 Corinthians 3:17.)  

Deuteronomy 12 tells us,

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5But you are to seek the place the Lord your God will choose from among all your tribes to put his Name there for his dwelling. To that place you must go;

11Then to the place the Lord your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name—there you are to bring everything I command you: your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, and all the choice possessions you have vowed to the Lord.

Deuteronomy 14 continues, 

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23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the Lord your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the Lord your God always.

Deuteronomy 16 continues,

Quote

 2 Sacrifice as the Passover to the Lord your God an animal from your flock or herd at the place the Lord will choose as a dwelling for his Name.

5 You must not sacrifice the Passover in any town the Lord your God gives you 6 except in the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name. There you must sacrifice the Passover in the evening, when the sun goes down, on the anniversary of your departure from Egypt.

9 Count off seven weeks from the time you begin to put the sickle to the standing grain. 10 Then celebrate the Festival of Weeks to the Lord your God by giving a freewill offering in proportion to the blessings the Lord your God has given you. 11 And rejoice before the Lord your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name—you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, the Levites in your towns, and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows living among you.12 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt, and follow carefully these decrees.

13 Celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles for seven days after you have gathered the produce of your threshing floor and your winepress. 14 Be joyful at your festival—you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, and the Levites, the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns. 15 For seven days celebrate the festival to the Lord your God at the place the Lord will choose. For the Lord your God will bless you in all your harvest and in all the work of your hands, and your joy will be complete.

16 Three times a year all your men must appear before the Lord your God at the place he will choose: at the Festival of Unleavened Bread,the Festival of Weeks and the Festival of Tabernacles. No one should appear before the Lord empty-handed: 17 Each of you must bring a gift in proportion to the way the Lord your God has blessed you.

Deuteronomy 26 continues,

Quote

When you have entered the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance and have taken possession of it and settled in it, 2 take some of the firstfruits of all that you produce from the soil of the land the Lord your God is giving you and put them in a basket. Then go to the place the Lord your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name 3 and say to the priest in office at the time, “I declare today to the Lord your God that I have come to the land the Lord swore to our ancestors to give us.” 

All of these various offerings are to be taken to the place where the Lord has chosen to place his name, his glory.  First it was the Tabernacle in the wilderness.  Later, if Moses Tabernacle of Meeting was not the Tabernacle of the Lord which had been commanded to be placed in the middle of the camp, it was in that Tabernacle of Meeting where God spoke to Moses face to face and counseled with the people.  Later, it was in Shiloh when the Tabernacle was placed there.  Later it was in Jerusalem, first in the Tabernacle of David when he brought the Ark of the Covenant there, and then moved into Solomon's temple when the Shekinah glory settled in the Most Holy Place and drove the priests out of the temple due to the brilliance spilling over the top of the veil.  Before the destruction of Solomon's temple the glory (and God's name) departed and settled on top of the Mount of Olives.  Later, the place was wherever Jesus was, and he spent more time teaching in the open fields and on the top of the Mount of Olives than he did in the temple or synagogues.  Finally that place settled on God's people, first the 120 in the upper room, then the thousands converted in the next weeks and years.  

Finally Revelation 3 tells us exactly where God has chosen to write his name with the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles after the second coming (traditionally believed to be the fulfillment of the feast of trumpets.

Quote

He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.  Revelation 3:12.

It is the one who overcomes in this life who will have the name of God written on him and to whom all our offerings are to be given.  He will be a pillar in the temple, and wherever he is the New Jerusalem and the presence of God will also be there.

Jeremiah 31 says,

Quote

31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
    “when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
    though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
    after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
    and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.

34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
    or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more.”

Is God's law his name?  Is he writing his name on me as he writes his law on me?  You better believe it.  The process is not complete until the Feast of Tabernacles is fulfilled, first corporately, then later in every individual who comes to maturity in that age, yet many of us are in the process.

Do you know what you actually tell me when you say I must go to church to meet with God?  You tell me that you have rejected the New Covenant, that God is not in you and cannot be in me wherever I am.  You tell me that the god you worship is a god of your own manufacture or of the manufacture of the priests you accept as your source of spiritual knowledge just as was the case with the church in the wilderness and later in Israel and Judah.  The God of creation removed himself from the camp because the people there never did worship him.  You must go to the open spaces where he is to find him and have his law and name written on you, to be made a part of his living temple.  

Going to the building to sit back in attendance while some preacher tells me of someone else's witness (because few of them have an actual witness of their own) does not do me or anyone else much good.  I recognize the need for fellowship with other believers, but fellowship means hearing their direct witness of what they know of God personally, and being able to share my witness of God with them.  It is not about the second-hand sharing and "affirmation" of something you have learned from someone else, who also probably has no real experience with God and simply learned second-hand from yet another person who has no real witness.  Hearsay of this type is not witness and any genuine court will reject it.  A forum such as this gives both, but in church the true witness is very rare indeed, and an individual's ability share his own witness is extremely limited or non-existent.  There is no value in that. 

So go to church and get your ears tickled if you are one of the self-righteous or get verbally and otherwise abused if you are one of those who really needs God's help and are open to actually getting it, but don't expect to find much of any real value anywhere but where God is.  If you want to know God be willing to go where he may be found.

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What is your point of the above? It is rather long and difficult to follow. Are you criticizing the church, people who attend, pastors...who? I do take it that you have some issue with the church, not sure what about.

Quote

So go to church and get your ears tickled if you are one of the self-righteous or get verbally and otherwise abused if you are one of those who really needs God's help and are open to actually getting it, but don't expect to find much of any real value anywhere but where God is.

A rather presumptive statement that condemns many people, vast numbers that you do not even know.  Based on you post, I get the impression you feel that the second group is the one you feel part of. 

phkrause likes this

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On 10/28/2013 at 9:34 AM, Stan said:

Truth is as well, those people who project that, HARDLY IF EVER ATTEND CHURCH, wolves in lambs clothing.

I have seen a few of them in church   ...  :)

 

To be fair - there is a strong tendency in both liberal and conservative camps where the tendency to be unkind to those that differ can be seen. IT is human nature and must be contended with.

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In other words, treat people like you want to be treated, and in general, however that is done, you will get what you give. You can either light a fuse and start a war, or snuff the fuse out and try to solve problems.

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