Adventist Church in North America recommends affirmation of men and women for or

[phkrause]

The Seventh-day Adventist Church in North America yesterday approved a recommendation from its Theology of Ordination Study Committee (TOSC) that affirms both men and women for ordination to ministry.

http://news.adventist.org/all-news/news/...or%20ordination

[olger]

Heard something about that....

[pierrepaul]

It's interesting that they refer to the topic at hand as the "theology of ordination". Ordination is an issue of ecclesiology, not theology.

[Textus Receptus]

It's interesting that they refer to the topic at hand as the "theology of ordination". Ordination is an issue of ecclesiology, not theology.

Exactly Piererpaul. If it were theology then the issue at hand could be biblically defended and we wouldn't be in the quagmire that we are embroiled in.

[ClubV12]

Cut to the chase:

Can a woman be General Conference President? Is that biblically supported? THAT is a theological question.

Ordination is currently a requirement of the Church for that position. The ultimate goal of those who support womens ordination, whether they realize it or not, is to allow for a woman to become General Conference President.

So the REAL question becomes:

Is a woman biblically authorized to become a leader in the Church at the highest level?

I'm sure some deeply sincere people believe she can. I don't. In fact, I am baffled as to how in the world one could conclude that women are authorized to such a position, theologically speaking.

[olger]

Might as well give it up Club. There are two distinct churches in the Adventist church, and one side is destined to say "Yes, we would support and welcome a woman General conference president."

The other (and much larger) side says "Course not. T'aint Biblical." I agree with this side.

Well, I'm pressin on...

`G

[olger]

It's interesting that they refer to the topic at hand as the "theology of ordination". Ordination is an issue of ecclesiology, not theology.

Male leadership is very much biblical, friend.

blessings!

G

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Is a woman biblically authorized to become a leader in the Church at the highest level?

We presently have a person who is an elected General Vice President of the General Conference who is described by people who know that person as a female.

[olger]

Good one.

[Gregory Matthews]

She is:

Quote:

Ella Simmons, Seventh-day Adventist General Conference vice president, the first and only woman to be part of the circle of the worldwide presidency’s board of the Seventh-day Adventist church, . . .

For those interested in more: She is married to a person typically described as a male. Her husband is a retired High school teacher and often travels with his wife on her travels.

NOTE: For those reading this post who are interested in the details, I have it on the best of authority that Ms. Simmons has never been accused of polyandry. I hope that this will stop any of the groundless speculation (on this point) that is associated with these threads.

[olger]

I know who Mrs. Simmons is. Been in the same room with her on two occasions.

Peace out,

g

[ClubV12]

She is one of nine VP's. She is not ordained. I think more significant is the fact that she does not seek ordination. She is a fine example of women in leadership through out the Church. Women who are not ordained nor seeking to be ordained.

One of the problems this current debate over ordination has caused is the immediate assumption that women can't serve in the Church UNLESS they are ordained. She does not believe that Ellen White was ordained. She does not offer her personal opinion on the question of ordination. She just wants to do her job. Good for her!

She has specifically asked that people NOT use her as an example of "leadership" in the ongoing debate!!!! She prefers to use the term "leadership" in it's more widely accepted definition and not as some "code word" for "ordination".

[Gregory Matthews]

Club: I have stated many times that ordination is not the Biblical issue. The Biblical issue underlying all of this is the role that women should have in spiritual care.

As a General Vice-President of the General Conference, she has more authority than does a local Conference President.

Your post sounds to me like you have no problem with female pastors, clergy of administrators, as long as they are not ordained. Well, that is what we do when we place Commissioned people in positions of leadership.

[ClubV12]

Well I don't know exactly what my ideas are for sure Gregory, I'm still reviewing this mess. And it is a mess. I do support, encourage and have been blessed by women in many different roles in the Church. I have also been ashamed at the attitude of a couple that I personally know who are absolutely adamant about wanting to be ordained. It strikes me as nothing more than wanting another "degree" to promote their career. If thats what this is about, I strongly oppose it!

I agree the real issue SHOULD be what role(s) we would do well to get more women involved in. How can we expand that. What are the limits. I'm not sure thats what the real issues are, but it's what they should be.

Call it whatever name we want, which is currently "ordained", I think we still need to consider what offices are applicable to women, biblically speaking, and what offices are not.

[ClubV12]

Contemplating your comment, Gregory, that a VP carries more authority than a Conference President. Somehow, I feel more comfortable with a VP operating as one of nine peers than I do about a local women Head Elder! Or a Conference President! What IS "authority"? Simmons is an excellent example of it, whatever it is. Humble needs to come with the job. I'm not interested in handing out "degrees" to further anybodys career, man or woman.

[Johann]

She is one of nine VP's. She is not ordained.

Interesting point.

How many of the other VPs are not ordained?

[Johann]

I know who Mrs. Simmons is. Been in the same room with her on two occasions.

Peace out,

g

Do you mean it started out with a fight

[Johann]

Originally Posted By: pierrepaul

It's interesting that they refer to the topic at hand as the "theology of ordination". Ordination is an issue of ecclesiology, not theology.

Male leadership is very much biblical, friend.

blessings!

D

G

Not counting the females

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

I think we still need to consider what offices are applicable to women, biblically speaking, and what offices are not.

That is exactly the issue of the role that women should have is spiritual nurture.

[Gregory Matthews]

The following are the nine (9) General Vice-Presidents of the General Conference:

Delbert W. Baker,

Lowell C. Cooper,

Geoffrey G. Mbwana,

Armando Miranda,

Pardon K. Mwansa,

Michael L. Ryan,

Benjamin D. Schoun,

Ella S. Simmons,

Artur A. Stele.

I have not checked, but it appears likely to me that all of the above are ordained, with the exception of Ms. Simmons.

[Gregory Matthews]

Club said:

Quote:

Call it whatever name we want, which is currently "ordained", I think we still need to consider what offices are applicable to women, biblically speaking, and what offices are not.

So, Club, If Commissioned credentials carried the same authority/functions of Ordained credentials, would you object to females being issued Commissioned credentials.

NOTE: There are currently males who carry Commissioned credentials.

My question is specific to Club. It is not intended to get into the issues that women are generally issued Commissioned credentials that that such carry less authority/functions than do Ordained credentials.

[ClubV12]

An interesting question Gregory. If follows along the lines of ordination vs laying on of hands I think.

The real question for me is: What positions within the Church are biblically acceptable for women? Which I THINK is the real question the ordination issue is attempting to address.

I don't know, but I think it's reasonable to conclude that 8 or the 9 VP's are ordained. I would think Mrs. Simmons is commissioned, but I don't know. Under current G.C. guidelines this would prevent her from becoming G.C. President.

And we know that Presidents have come from the VP pool.

[Neil D]

I know who Mrs. Simmons is. Been in the same room with her on two occasions.

Peace out,

g

Wow...Sanctification by proximity.....Cooool....

[Neil D]

She is one of nine VP's. She is not ordained. I think more significant is the fact that she does not seek ordination. She is a fine example of women in leadership through out the Church. Women who are not ordained nor seeking to be ordained.

By definition, ordination is where the church recognizes a persons abilities in leadership....

YOU, who oppose ordaining women, recognized each and every woman's abilities to guide and lead [and thus fulfilling the very definition of Ordination], as long as the woman is NOT recognised by the church.....How much more hypocrisy must this church continue in?

[ClubV12]

The definition of ordination is a large part of the ongoing debate Neil. You see that as hypocrisy, for some reason, I don't know how you manage that, but whatever.

At this point "ordination" is the "code word" that would allow a woman to be elected President of the world Church. I believe this is forbidden by the counsel of Paul. Thus I believe it is a direct violation of biblical law.

IF you allow women to be ordained and the G.C. rules they are in favor, the next question would logically follow: Does this allow a woman to be President of the G.C.? If the answer is yes, then we need a new rule, law or guideline that specifically says a woman cannot be President of the G.C. In order to be in harmony with the bible.

Perhaps it would easier for you if the G.C. said a commissioned woman could be President of the G.C.? No matter what her title or appoint may be, I would oppose this. Even while I will honor and respect the C.C.'s authority, I would continue to oppose such a ruling with pen and voice, in a respectful way.