28 Fundamental Beliefs, or a Papal Creed?

[BattleAxe]

Gerry

The apostles responded saying that one need not be circumcised in order to be saved. They did not say that one should not, could not, or was not allowed to be circumcised. But very well... "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

[Gustave]

Ellen is viewed as both the initial and final "super Prophet-Pope" of the SDA Church....

...There is no example of Prophets outside of those who's Books are in the Bible.

...Who have a "continuing authority" after their death.

Ellen actually had ( and still has )more power in Doctrinal / creedal matters for SDA's.....

...Then does the Pope for Catholics.

...This is easily proven.

BattleAxe has a point here.

[Johann]

Not only did Ellen do much more writing than any other known prophet, but there never before were as many of their books distributed all over the world, apart from the Bible.

[Gibs]

I personally would have rather seen the SDA church make a statement that what Adventists believe is the Word of God rather than set out in the leading men's idea of what the people believe.

I find every thrust we make should be to point any and all to the infallible Word of God.

I stand on that Word and nothing else as I find it is the only SOLID GROUND to stand on.

When any start to teach or preach I weigh every thought and inference put forth to the truth of that Holy and sure Word.

2Pe 1:19 ¶ We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Isa 41:21 ¶ Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob.

Isa 41:22 Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.

Isa 41:23 Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BattleAxe]

[Stan]

reinforcing each's others delusions?

[Naomi]

Stan

[Gerr]

I personally would have rather seen the SDA church make a statement that what Adventists believe is the Word of God rather than set out in the leading men's idea of what the people believe.

I find every thrust we make should be to point any and all to the infallible Word of God.

I stand on that Word and nothing else as I find it is the only SOLID GROUND to stand on.

Then we should just join the Baptists, or Methodists, Lutherans, and any of the hundreds of Protestant denominations who ALL claim the same as the above --->-->> back to Babylon!

If we follow your suggestion, what would happen if somebody asks me, "What do you believe?"

What would/should my response be? "Why, of course, I believe what the Bible teaches."

"And what does the Bible teach?"

"It teaches just what I believe."

"So what is it that you believe that the Bible teaches?"

"The same thing!"

[Gibs]

Gerry are you telling me and others that the Bible will lead one back to Babylon?

No you are wrong on what the Bible teaches, it teaches the TRUTH! He who is the Truth is the one teaching what it says if you ask Him, the Spirit of Truth to come and be in you and guide you into all the truth as He would have you to see!

Choose no man as your leader, Christ only is the safe and sure leader for any to follow.

Anyway I want you to know and believe for sure that I choose to follow Him and His Word to me and to be led of His Spirit into all truth of it as I partake!

Oh, yes He has promised me and ALL who will have Him to guide into ALL truth!

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Stan]

Gibs

Have a you ever met people who teach the Adventist Church in now Babylon, and we are to come out of it?

[BattleAxe]

Gibs

[Dr. Waite]

Gibs

Have a you ever met people who teach the Adventist Church in now Babylon, and we are to come out of it?

Stan:

Have you ever met Adventist people who teach something that Jesus Christ never taught such as that He, Jesus Christ, is NOT the literal only begotten divine Son of the Living God?

[Gibs]

Yes I have Stan. I am a SDA, just not a present day one, I am of the early kind. That is one thing I have never done is call the SDA church Babylon as I believe there is still a true one.

I could go on but Stan I know you surely have read my testimony.

His Church is His True people, not a denomination as you will note EGW tells us,

God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church. {UL 315.5}

Where two or three are present who love and obey the commandments of God, Jesus there presides, let it be in the desolate place of the earth, in the wilderness, in the city enclosed in prison walls. The glory of God has penetrated the prison walls, flooding with glorious beams of heavenly light the darkest dungeon. His saints may suffer, but their sufferings will, like the apostles of old, spread their faith and win souls to Christ and glorify His holy name. The bitterest opposition expressed by those who hate God's great moral standard of righteousness should not and will not shake the steadfast soul who trusts fully in God. . . . {UL 315.6}

They that will be doers of the word are building securely, and the tempest and storm of persecution will not shake their foundation, because their souls are rooted to the eternal Rock.--Letter 108, Oct. 28, 1886, to her older sister and her husband who had not accepted the Sabbath truth. {UL 315.7}

And so my thrust is to get people to see that what is important is to worship Him in truth and Spirit as He seeks those to worship Him, they make up His Body, His Church and they are SDA's as they know the Sabbath is His Holy day and He is coming again!

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I am a reformer to get back to the solid ground of truth and we cannot refute the truth.

Do all have to agree with me? No, each is totally free to choose.

I just ask that where any find I teach error to refute it with the Truth and His Word is it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Yes, Dr. Waite, on teaching Jesus Christ is the "One And Only Begotten Son" that I teach very solidly.

That His was the Body prepared and the Father came and dwelt in him in ALL fullness and so was God the Father with us in a body of flesh.

Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And so was fully God with us!

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Green Cochoa]

Gibs,

On the point you are touching, many are unfortunately confused. Jesus wasn't the only son of God. That's one of the perverse contradictions inserted into the Bible by the modern translations. Look at John 1:12. What does it say?

Jesus was the only son of God to have been "begotten" by God. The newer translations try to say He is the "one and only son," which is of course not true.

But, back to the topic, our 28 FB would have displeased Ellen White greatly. She said in no uncertain terms we were to have no creed but the Bible. Most churches today have adopted terms like "beliefs" in place of "creed," but in essence it is the same thing.

I would not be opposed to Adventists publishing a list of "some of our distinctive beliefs." But to number them and call them "the fundamentals," often referring to them as our "doctrines," is to close our minds to the fuller truths and expanded doctrines of the Bible itself. We might even be overlooking something more "fundamental" than we realize. I can think of one.

The so-called "28 Fundamental Beliefs" have zero mention (I just did a word search of the online PDF of all 28) of the doctrine of forgiveness. Jesus said God will forgive us if we forgive our fellow men. But the only mentions of "forgiveness" (there are two in the PDF of our beliefs) are in the sections of "Baptism" and "Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ"--both referring only to God's forgiveness toward us.

The doctrine of forgiveness is hugely fundamental to Christianity, and is crucial to salvation. Jesus taught that if we do not forgive others, God will not forgive us. So this is a "salvific" doctrine, and is strangely omitted by the "scholars" who thought to crystallize our beliefs in a separate book apart from the Bible.

The Bible was to be our only creed. It is unfortunate that we have begun to accept another.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[Gerr]

Gerry are you telling me and others that the Bible will lead one back to Babylon?

The Bible leads one to the truth.

Following your suggestion leads to Babylon.

It was because the Advent pioneers studied the word individually and corporately that they arrived at some distinctive beliefs that were rejected by other Christians. Thus it became imperative that they set up one of their own.

Quote:

No you are wrong on what the Bible teaches, it teaches the TRUTH! He who is the Truth is the one teaching what it says if you ask Him, the Spirit of Truth to come and be in you and guide you into all the truth as He would have you to see!

Soooo, which truth? When will you accept the truth that I got directly from the Bible and the Holy Spirit? :)

[Gerr]

His Church is His True people, not a denomination as you will note EGW tells us,

God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church. {UL 315.5}

Where two or three are present who love and obey the commandments of God, Jesus there presides, let it be in the desolate place of the earth, in the wilderness, in the city enclosed in prison walls. The glory of God has penetrated the prison walls, flooding with glorious beams of heavenly light the darkest dungeon. His saints may suffer, but their sufferings will, like the apostles of old, spread their faith and win souls to Christ and glorify His holy name. The bitterest opposition expressed by those who hate God's great moral standard of righteousness should not and will not shake the steadfast soul who trusts fully in God. . . . {UL 315.6}

They that will be doers of the word are building securely, and the tempest and storm of persecution will not shake their foundation, because their souls are rooted to the eternal Rock.--Letter 108, Oct. 28, 1886, to her older sister and her husband who had not accepted the Sabbath truth. {UL 315.7}

And so my thrust is to get people to see that what is important is to worship Him in truth and Spirit as He seeks those to worship Him, they make up His Body, His Church and they are SDA's as they know the Sabbath is His Holy day and He is coming again!

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I am a reformer to get back to the solid ground of truth and we cannot refute the truth.

So what is this Church? Are you saying that God does not have a visible body of believers "who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus?"

Did God have a visible body in the OT that He called "My people?"

[BattleAxe]

Green

I'm so glad to find someone else that can agree on the simple definition of the word creed. When I talk with people about this, they always deny that a creed is a set of beliefs. The way they distinguish a creed, is if the list of beliefs is Catholic. I personally think that if we cannot even agree on the mere meaning of words, then there is no help for us. I remember Kent Hovind saying something similar. He said something like, "If you cannot see that the dictionary says that "science" is something that can be tested, studied, and observed, then there is nothing more I can do for you." They changed the dictionary within the past 10 or 15 years as I understand. But before that the word "science" meant something that could be tested, studied, and observed. Now it means something along the lines of 'a state of knowing.' In other words, it doesn't have to be real science in order to make it into the textbooks, as long as we just accept the mental state of "knowing" that its true. Thankfully, the word 'creed' has kept its original meaning and so there is nothing that anyone can do to get around it saving for point blank denying it.

[Gerr]

Quote:

But, back to the topic, our 28 FB would have displeased Ellen White greatly. She said in no uncertain terms we were to have no creed but the Bible. Most churches today have adopted terms like "beliefs" in place of "creed," but in essence it is the same thing.

I would not be opposed to Adventists publishing a list of "some of our distinctive beliefs." But to number them and call them "the fundamentals," often referring to them as our "doctrines," is to close our minds to the fuller truths and expanded doctrines of the Bible itself. We might even be overlooking something more "fundamental" than we realize. I can think of one.

So what would be the difference between having "Fundamental Beliefs" and "Some of our Distinctive Beliefs?"

Do you still have any doubts about the Sabbath? The Second Coming? That God is not a monster that tortures the wicked forever ad infinitum? That the Bible is the inspired word of God?

Having a set of what one believes fundamentally does not have to stop anyone from thinking. For some it might. The atoning death of Christ is as fundamental as you can get, yet if we are to believe the messenger, it is to be a subject of study throughout eternity.

The Adventist Church is a movement. Among the things that sets it apart from other denominations is the fact that we are not afraid to study the Word and add or subtract doctrine as more light is revealed.

[Gerr]

I personally have no problem about the definitions of creed or fundamental beliefs. However, Papal Creed would be altogether different since the pope claims infallibility. To acknowledge that a doctrine that was declare as true by someone who is infallible is to acknowledge that the claim is false. SDAs make no such claims. The SDAC has added and subtracted certain teachings in the past.

[Stan]

When I was an ABC Manager people would come in and want to know what SDA's believed. These included Seminary Students and those who went to Bible Schools. AS well as other interested people.

What did I have to offer them? Before the 27 fundamental beliefs were printed, NOTHING of any substance.

When I asked members what would be best, some said just point them to the Bible. That ranked among the stupidest response I had ever heard. AND I rarely use that word.

Beliefs are generally accepted concepts of Adventist Worldwide. Deviation from that does not mean disfellowship.

[Gibs]

Gerry asked, what is His Church or this church? As EGW stated Gerry it is not the great cathedral or any denomination. It is His people that come and worship Him only in Spirit and in truth. That is a must!

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Error must not be introduced or He will not be in the midst and then the gathering does not constitutes Church!

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Certainly the Church is visible, was it not visible when Christ built it upon Himself the Rock,- - , Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

All in it are SDA's in the beginning and even now, of those who will only worship Him in Spirit and in truth and refuse to imbibe any error!

Here is a mystery, secret, only he who has the Spirit of Truth dwelling within can discern when error is weaved in!

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

You can bet your top and bottom dollar that Paul was a SDA. And if you only have one dollar then it is your top one and bottom one!

Sure His Church is visible, eyes must be opened to see it!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BattleAxe]

I personally don't find so much problem with having an official creed (set of beliefs) itself. Its against inspiration, yes, but I think the greater issue is ENFORCING those beliefs via threat of discipline and disfellowshipment. That is where it becomes as papal as all get out.

[BattleAxe]

Stan...

Are you for real when you say that pointing them to the Bible was the stupidest thing you thought that you could do? That is really sad. That is the only infallible source we have on this planet. Ellen White is plain in saying that our beliefs may have error in them, and "error is never harmless." {5T 292.2}

"There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation."{Review and Herald, December 20, 1892 par. 1}

And that is the sad truth of it. Pointing people to the Bible has become 'stupid' to us, because we have so set our hearts on the interpretations of fallible mortals, that the Bible just isn't the best option anymore. Better to turn to the interpretations of the fathers of the church, then to go to the Word of God itself.

[Stan]

Grab a hold of reality...

They were looking for our understanding of the bible, ie what adventist believe. They already had Bibles.