Is Jesus the archangle Michael?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I hope no one minds me fixing the typo in the title. It's been on my mind since the OP.

There!

(glad you did that, Gail! I kept thinking "protractor")

[scott.t]

What in Jesus made him capable of living a sinless life?. If he was just like the rest of humanity, surely, after billions of us being born, someone else would have lived a sinless life.

I know these may be basic questions. And to think I spent 12 years in SDA schools.

Gustave, I'm new here, I think Gregory is Adventist, but you mentioned you were a different religion. If its not to personal, I was wondering what that religion was.

Scott

[thx4mercy]

Is Jesus the archangel Michael? What about Daniel 12:1 where it says that Michael stands up? That's Jesus. Probation is closed, the judgment is over, the trial is over, the judge stands up.

[Gustave]

Gustave, correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are making a few assumptions that are "church fathers" based rather than Bible based.

[Kevin H]

Kevin said:

Quote:

Had Jesus sinned, it would have been a flaw in the God head.

Not at all.

The focus of salvation was whether or not humans could live as God expected them to live. Christ, living in his humanity demonstrated that humans could so live.

That was the fundamental charge of Satan.

Yes, God was in a sense part of this in relation to whether or not God's expectations were just, reasonable and fair. I will give you that.

But, I will say that if Christ had sinned it would not have revealed a flaw in God.

What you are saying in your next to last sentence is us both saying the same thing but in different words. Once again the three deceptions of Satan are: Is God really the creator or just a higher life form and does he have a right to impose the law of self sacrificing love on his creatures. Does God even live by his law? Can you expect creatures to keep that law. 2 and 3 are can be God be both just and merciful or is he only one or the other.

These were the issues at stake.

The trinity exists in a righteousness by faith relationship with each other based on the law of self sacrificing love. Does God really live in this relationship? If a member of the Godhead did not live up to this, then this would have been God not really being in this righteousness by faith relationship with each other and that self sacrificing love is really not in God's character and thus it would be a law imposed on others but that God himself does not live by. This was the issues involved when Jesus was here. With the oneness of God beyond time and space, it would not matter which aspect of the God head became human the results would have been the same. Jesus, being God's manifestation as our personal friend, would be the natural aspect of the trinity to become man.

And the question "Can God be Trusted" was very much weighing in the balance. The righteousness by faith relationship between God and every faithful creature in the universe was what was at stake. God took a real risk not a pretend risk.

For further study may I again recommend the ORIGINAL "Sanctuary and the Atonement" from 1981 the 3 chapters "We Must All Appear: The Investigative Judgment in the writings of Ellen G. White" and "The Mighty opposites: The Atonement in the writings of Ellen G. White" parts 1 and 2. Also, much of the writings and lectures of A. Graham Maxwell.

[Kevin H]

Jackson: Some good points. May I share with you that with in Adventism we have 3 understandings of the human nature of Christ.

The Church debated the human nature of Christ for centuries. Finally they came to an agreement as reflected in the creeds that Gustave shared.

Among our early church leaders the doctrine of the trinity was an optional doctrine, and it was not a popular option as Semi-Arian views were more popular. fortunately, we did not go as far as the Jehovah's Witnesses did of making their Semi-Arian views a central part of their faith. In our church you were free to be either be Trinitarian or Semi-Arian. However, again the Semi-Arian views were the most popular. The evidence is that James White spent most of his life undecided between the two views. He did not preach about it, when editor of the Review where were a few but not as many of the anti-Trinitarian articles in the Review. People who knew him (except for one old man who as a little boy had lunch with the White's just once) said that James would only listen and not comment when there were discussions between the trinity or not. (The one old man who had lunch the one time with the Whites said that at the dinner James was talking against the trinity.) Towards the end of his life James wrote a letter saying "The arguments for the doctrine of the trinity are starting to make more sense to me than the arguments against the trinity.)

The Holy Spirit was leading us and we (and the Jehovah's Witnesses) both suffered the consequences for our sin. The Semi-Arian views made us somehow see "God the Father" as "God in entirety" as opposed to being one of the 3 aspects of God to be necessary and sufficient. When you have the necessary but insufficient revelation of God the Father being the whole thing of God, you end up with Church leaders who become very controlling and demanding and you end up very legalistic and preaching the law, the law, the law until we are as dry as the hills of Gilboa. This lead to the crisis of 1888.

Mrs. White's solution to the crisis of 1888 was to start to focus more on Jesus and the Holy Spirit. In the late 1800's there were people saying that Mrs. White had apostatized and became a Trinitarian. Others said that Mrs. White did not apostatize but that people working for her (and in the White Estate vault I saw one of these arguments blaming W. W. Prescott) of inserting Trinitarian comments into her writings.

In 1904, Elder Andresen, wrote to Mrs. White to ask her about those quotes and if others were trying to sneak the doctrine of the trinity into the church by adding Trinitarian quotes to her writings. She invited him to come and interview her, and in the visit she convinced Andresen that the trinity was truth and showed him that the Trinitarian quotes were indeed in her handwriting. He came to visit a stanch anti-Trinitarian and left a stanch Trinitarian.

Also, as you study Mrs. White's Great Controversy theme it becomes very focused on the three aspects of the trinity. The first deception of Satan that God is not God but just a higher form of life that has become a cruel arbitrary tyrant imposing on us the law of Self sacrificing love and righteousness by faith is an attack on God the Father. The deception that God can be just but not merciful is an attack on Jesus who died to save us. The deception that Jesus' death does away with the law and God can be merciful but not just, is an attack on the Holy Spirit who makes us loving and lovable people.

Many of the 3's in the Bible deal with these 3 issues; such as the 3 temptations of Jesus. It has been noticed by linguists that the Exodus 20 version of the 10 commandments can be broken into three equal thirds. When I learned about this I noticed that the First third consists of 3 commandments that tell us how to love God supremely, they describe the role of God the Father. The last third consists of 6 commandments and I noticed that it shows the work of the Holy Spirit to change us into loving and loveable people. The middle third consists of only 1 commandment, and it says that the only way we can love God supremely and love our neighbor as our self is through resting in a relationship with God, the Jesus commandment. So the trinity went from an unpopular option to the center of our faith; with a lot of people who are trying to make sense of this change and Satan being very angry at the trinity and how it is the foundation to Mrs. White's Great Controversy philosophy. Satan knows that if he can confuse the trinity that he can decrease our understanding of the Great Controversy philosophy. But also this fresh look at the trinity gives us a first hand rather than second hand relationship with the doctrine of the trinity and in the last century we have learned more about the trinity and Mrs. White's understanding aliens closer to the original Jewish version of the trinity and the early Eastern Orthodox view rather than the Roman Catholic view.

Anyway, as I said, the Church argues for centuries over the nature of Christ. As we changed from being more Semi-Arian to the trinity taking center stage, we just took for granted the traditional view over the nature of Christ. In the 1950'a a book was written called "Questions of Doctrine." One of the questions asked was what was our view of the nature of Christ. I wish that the reply was "As we have accepted the trinity we have accepted the traditional view of the nature of Christ," refer to Mrs. White's comments and refer them to Anglican minister Henry Melvill who Mrs. White would quote from. Instead wanting to clarify that we were no longer Semi-Arians, they gave a half answer. Elder Andresen recognized that it was only a half answer and wanted to remind them that there was another half to the answer. Instead of correcting the one error most of our members have either taken the half answer that QOD had or taking Elder Andresen's point about the other half of the answer as that being the whole answer.

Therefore, today we have those who think that Jesus either had the nature of Adam before the fall. The other group thinks that Jesus had the nature of us after the fall. Very few hold to the traditional view that Jesus had his own unique nature unlike Adam before the fall and unlike us after the fall.

The sinful nature is that we have in us a disposition to think that we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. The desire to have contempt for the outside world and for people and other objects as standing for the outside world, is a continuous unseen desire making for mental insufficiency. Jesus did not have this disposition. We are sinners because we have this disposition. Even if we do nothing wrong our actions are still at least tainted with this disposition. Even our desire to go to heaven and be with Jesus is tainted with selfishness. We are all in a fight between this and our deepest desire to love the world as Jesus has loved it, to want to be fair to God, ourselves and the outside world. Our deepest desire, our largest desire is to be like and with Jesus and to like him to like the world on an honest and accurate basis.

To understand the unique nature of Christ may I recommend this article I found on the internet: http://www.andrews.edu/~fortind/EGWNatureofChrist.htm

[OzarkWoman]

Is Jesus the archangel Michael? What about Daniel 12:1 where it says that Michael stands up? That's Jesus.

According to you.

[Gustave]

Gustave, search the scriptures and not the traditions or creeds of men.

[Kevin H]

As I've shown previously - according to Ellen and James White...

...And EVERY other SDA Leader when Ellen was still alive.

...The Deity was "ON LOAN" from the Father to Christ.

...Christ's Deity was CONDITIONALLY His - provided He towed the rope!

So, you should re-word your statement to say that Christ's hold on His CONDITIONAL Deity...

...Which flowed from the Father Alone.

...Was what was able to keep little Christ going.

While you have some good concerns about the Semi-Arian views that was popular among a number of our pioneers, I hate the way you unfairly force it down our throats and force it down Mrs. White's throat as she grew from being open minded to where a very orthodox view of the trinity became central to her mature theology. This refusing to allow her to grow and to force that stage of our church in it's growth as if we were stuck there and that it applies to all she said and what I say and what we believe is uncalled for and cruel.

While the above belief may have been entertained, it has been rejected as untrue and you have no right to cram that down our throat and twist what Mrs. White and I an the rest of us say to fit your lie about us.

[Gustave]

While you have some good concerns about the Semi-Arian views that was popular among a number of our pioneers, I hate the way you unfairly force it down our throats and force it down Mrs. White's throat as she grew from being open minded to where a very orthodox view of the trinity became central to her mature theology.

[Gustave]

As the above quote shows, Gustave, your posts are full of misinformation and half truths.

I'm pretty sure you know that when Ellen says Christ's humanity "united with divinity"...

...Ellen, as well as the SDA Pioneers classified the meaning as being Christ "united with the Father".

...Let me help you out a bit here.

Ellen White, Signs of the Times, April 14, 1898

Satanic agencies confederated with evil men to lead the people to believe that Christ was the chief of sinners, and to make Him an object of detestation. But the priests and rulers failed to realize that in Christ divinity was enthroned in humanity. Christ’s humanity COULD NOT be separated from His divinity. Could one sin have been found in Christ, the world would have plunged into blackness and ruin. IF Satan could have so bruised Christ’s heel that He would have yielded to the physical torture, his triumph would have been complete. He could have shouted victory. The world would have been his kingdom.

The reason Christ's divinity could not be separated from His humanity was twofold.....

...A) it wasn't His in the ultimate sense, it was the Father's.

&

... IT HAD BEEN BLENDED WITH IT.

This is why Ellen stressed that it was ONLY Christ's unswerving dedication to the Father...

...That gave Christ "power" & if Christ failed it would have been all over.

Ellen White MS 99,1903 page 3,4

He had infinite power ONLY because He was perfectly obedient to His Father's will

A Methodist or frankly ANY Christian who subscribes to the Doctrine of the Trinity...

...Would affirm that Christ was ETERNALLY obedient to The Father's will.

...After all - God - IS absolutely, ETERNALLY, UNITED!

...This is most basic Trinity 101.

Ellen White

Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own. His Deity could not be lost WHILE He stood faithful and true to His loyalty

I'll phrase this by a modern day example to help you see it clearly.

EXAMPLE:

Jackson has a Florida Drivers License & Jackson's Drivers License could not be lost as long as Jackson obeyed the laws pertaining to driving in the State of Florida!

If Jackson has too much to drink and subsequently gets a D.U.I. Jackson LOOSES his "State Issued" Drivers License because Jackson's Drivers License is NOT A NATURAL RIGHT of Jackson - it's actually a PRIVILEGE that's CONDITIONALLY his to keep SO LONG AS JACKSON is obedient to the laws of the State of Florida!

In the above example "The State" would be "GOD The Father" who authorized Christ to act as His Direct Agent...

...Now Pay attention CLOSE to the following.

Col 2,8

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

When, Jackson do you maintain that Christ was all the fullness of the Godhead bodily?

...Was it immediately AFTER His resurrection so it could be proven He didn't sin & loose His salvation?

...Or do you believe Christ PRIOR to His Death was the fullness of the Godhead bodily?

If you say that it was AFTER Christ's death on the cross I being a Trinitarian would ask you....

...WHAT HAPPENED, WHAT DID God The Father do to Christ so from then forward He COULDN'T SIN?

...If you say Christ was the fullness of the Godhead bodily prior to his death you have a huge problem.

If Christ was prior to His death on the cross the fullness of the Godhead bodily....

...And Ellen's Arian hypothetical of Christ's sinning been realized.

...It makes sense THAT God the Father would have tucked his tail between his legs.

...And fled this universe to SULK in the dark corner of a distant universe.

Because Lucifer WOULD HAVE BEEN THE LORD OF PLANET EARTH!

...That's EXACTLY what Ellen and her cronies said from day one would have happened.

...Who knows what other mutiny would have taken place.

...It's straight out of the t.v. series Supernatural where anything goes.

...And Lucifer or even a lessor demon if he plays his cards right CAN BE GOD.

[Gustave]

Could Jesus be tempted?

Bible says:

God could not be tempted: James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But Jesus could be tempted: Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

[Kevin H]

You continue to try to squeeze us into a mold which is unfair to us and to Mrs. White so that you can build your straw man to knock down.

[Gustave]

You continue to try to squeeze us into a mold which is unfair to us and to Mrs. White so that you can build your straw man to knock down.

I don't deal in straw men Kevin H, I meet the issues head-on...

...Lucifer had NOTHING in Christ exactly as Christ clearly stated.

...I've answered everyone with respect and Scripture.

Do you realize how it looks when the best argument that's presented against the Orthodox Christian position...

...Is that I'm setting up a straw man only to tear it down.

...This isn't a very good argument.

[Tom Wetmore]

Go to the topic menu for this sub forum and you will see a "new topic" button at top left.

But first I would encourage you to scan through the topic list for an existing thread already on the topic. The topic of the nature of Christ has been discussed a number of times before. You could revive one of those previous threads.