SDA Pastor Tries on Atheism for a Year

[fccool]

Ryan Bell, 42, embarked on a year-long spiritual journey at the start of the year. Four days in, he was unemployed. He found help in the very group he was exploring - atheists, who donated money to help him out.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/ex...0#ixzz2qWRqhGiM

[Naomi]

Imagine that

[Kevin H]

I wish that I could talk with Ryan Bell

[Kevin H]

While I don't know the specifics as to how the church worked with Pastor Bell. We have a potential of working with those in a similar situation.

We think that being called to the ministry is being called to pastoring the churches. But our pastors are basically salesmen and church administrators. There is very definitely a ministry here. But there are other ministries. We too much are stuck by the labels of being a minister or lay member even if we are active inside the church.

I post a lot here which I see as a ministry, I do lay preaching and work as a psychiatric nurse and I have very much seen my years working with the Air Force Aeromedical evacuation system as a ministry. I see returning to illusions and learning puppetry so that I can use the illusions, puppets and hope to expand to games to go to schools, churches, hospitals, other community events including maybe jails, to teach the Bible and Biblical principles of health, Mental health such as Dr. Glasser's Choice Theory, reality therapy, Canfield's "The Success Principles" Now Discover your strengths" Christian Moore's "WhyTry" program, using perspectives from having studied Eli Siegel's "Aesthetic Realism" while I was in college. While I do not use exclusive Adventist material and I do not get my pay check from the church, I do see myself as very much working for the church and find that with Jesus being my foundation that the Seventh-day Adventist church is the structure for my life and ministry.

I have been very impressed with the ministry of Felix Lorenz Jr. He is a fairly conservative and very strong Ellen G. White believing member who studied to be a minister but decided not to live off of pastor's salary. Worked some as a pastor and some more as an Evangelist but went more for things such as teaching school as a Bible teacher and other subjects (I don't remember but I think he also taught in public school) disk jockey on Christian radio stations etc. Work with both Adventist and non-Adventist churches. Then for his retirement he worked until his late 80's pastoring non-Adventist churches who have different ways of paying their pastors than ours so that these churches would have needed to close if he did not volunteer. He worked in a trade off. They did not have to pay him a salary, but they would help him to have a good church library and to send him to conferences where he would even improve his skills. Yet while he spent Sunday - Friday pastoring those churches, on Sabbath he and his wife were worshipers at the local Seventh-day Adventist church and all his material said that Pastor Lorenz is a Seventh-day Adventist lay member and was very open about his Adventism with the churches he ministered to and would quote Mrs. White when appropriate in his sermons.

I fear that brother Bell does not see this potential. And I wish our church would help more with those of us who have paid a lot of money in to the church to minister then just to have the church take our money and throw us away. We could have helped brother Bell maybe find a pastoral position in say a Disciples of Christ, First United Methodist, or United church of Christ, but encourage him to not get involved with all the liberal theology and to stay a member of our church and attend the local Adventist church on Sabbath. Or allow him to return to Loma Linda and take something like social work, marriage and family therapy or the Psy.D degree, but to allow people like brother Bell attend in a retraining program for those of us who had studied for the Adventist ministry but where our ministry is different from pastoring Seventh-day Adventist churches.

Oh, how I wish that I could sit down and talk to brother Bell.

I first went to college planning to be a pastor. Spent a year as a Taskforce pastor's assistant, got good grades in my Biblical Studies classes, but not so good grades in the pastoral practical classes and saw that I loved the teaching/preaching aspects of ministry, but not all the fund raising, the pressure of financial goals of ingathering. I loved giving Bible studies (got to use slides narrated by HMS Richards SR. and William Fagal) and then discussing the topics. But hated looking for people to give the studies too and the pressure for baptisms. So I changed my focus towards teaching. Went to Andrews for my masters in Religion with a focus on the history and geography of the Old Testament and historical context to the writings of Mrs. White.

I graduated in the 1980s where the economy was not good. The church was not hiring. I remember the Atlantic Union President telling how he a son-in-law that he was trying to find a position for and how difficult it was. For teaching they were increasing class sizes and having teachers teach more than one subject. At Andrews on a day they had representatives interview potential teachers I was hired and fired 3 times. Three schools said they wanted to hire me but also wanted me to teach either math, science, or special ed. or be able to teach Spanish speaking people. Since my minor was in Psychology I could not teach them and my second language was Norwegian. They told me that they would gladly hire me if I would continue my education to be able to teach math, science or Special ed. Thus at graduation I joined the Army as a Chaplain Assistant.

At Basic training Sabbath was the day that they gave the National Guard their special training so the rest of us, while having to be on base basically had the day off. I would give Bible studies. At Advanced training we had the weekends off and I had called the local Adventist church for a ride to church. While walking to the gate for the ride to church Satan attacked me. I found myself thinking "What are you doing this for? You are no longer home, or in Academy, or college. People here don't care if you go to the Adventist church or another church or no church at all. The church just took your money for education and threw you away. I pictured in my mind a picture of me on a bar chair with a drink in one hand and cigar in another surrounded by women with the though "Forget about all this religious garbage and just have fun, you are finally free!" (Hey, even if I was not religious I am grossed out about smoking and drinking). I just began praying and continued to walk to the gate and get into the car for the ride to church.

[Kevin H]

While my grades were not that high in the pastoral practices classes at AUC, I remember one thing I learned there and also in a Minister's Meeting lead by New York Conference President Elder Skantz (spelling?) at a minister's meeting that I wish would be implemented church wide.

The topic was about disfellowshiping. Both emphasized about not just dropping members. But to make it clear to the member that because their name is being dropped from the church books, that it does not mean that they are no longer in the book of life. That we should encourage them to find a church where they fit better in and encourage them to continue with their relationship with Jesus.

Again I don't know all the behind the scenes issues, but my armchair quarterbacking on Monday morning, I would like to maintain Brother Bell's name on the books and welcome him to church each week, but contact say a United Methodist church to see if they could use him to continue to minister to the community. Or have him in a retraining program for social work or psychology etc. But for the church to work with him closely in this restructuring of his ministry.

[lazarus]

But our pastors are basically salesmen and church administrators.

Hmmm, I'm surprised you would make statement. I'm sure no offense was meant but it seems rather crass to me.

[Kevin H]

There is too much of a push for church pastors to get as many members as they can and to keep the church running and to not rock the boat. It is a needed ministry, a ministry that needs our support, but it is not the only ministry.

I also believe that there are many ministries that can build on the Adventist foundation, such as what I do with mental health, what chaplains do, what Felix Lorenz did. One dream ministry I wish our church would do would be... we already reach out to different ministers with Ministry magazine. But I would like to see us invite the other ministers in our community to come and worship with us, where they can just simply come to worship and not have to worry about being "The Pastor" and "The Pastor's family" but just come, away and get a much needed rest from their congregation.

But also wishing that I could work with Brother Bell to explore the possibility of him working on a ministry that does not have him throw out the baby with the bathwater, and where he can serve even if it is not in the traditional role. And an appeal to our church leaders to follow what Elder Skantz and the lecture at AUC said about helping the disfellowshiped find a place to encourage growth.

There is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much ministry that the world needs that we are not providing. What I mentioned in the mental health fields inviting pastors of other faiths to come and worship with us. Hospital and military and community chaplaincies, helping Jews in their spiritual growth even if they never become Christians or Seventh-day Adventists. Different communities that may not be available for main line ministry but where God loves the people who are trying to do their best and helping them have some sort of contact with God. And being a Seventh-day Adventist, our views on religious liberty, liberty of conscience, and hell fire gives us an advantage in fulfilling these other ministries that those who are trying to save people from having God throw them into hell has.

[Kevin H]

If any of you know brother Bell I wish you would give him what I wrote here or could make arrangements for us to contact each other. Thank you.

[debbym]

Quote:

Hmmm, I'm surprised you would make statement. I'm sure no offense was meant but it seems rather crass to me.

traditional pastoral roles are "persuasion" to increase and maintain membership and "administration" managing the financial business of the church.

this is indeed true.

if a pastor pleases the members and adds members, and keeps the church books in the red, and tithes maintained he has job security.

more then one minister has left the position disillusioned with what the job ended up being, and struggling to please cantankerous members. the attacks by members on pastors who displease them are unspeakable.

i wonder what the statistics are on the number of SDA ministers who have left the position or taken early retirement as soon as possible are. i personally know three of them and the story so far is much the same between them.

it has already been made clear the Bell is not becoming atheist, and the atheist community has acknowledged that he is not becoming atheist. but he is re-examining his faith which is ok. God is up to it, and able to provide this mans needs in the struggle he has made apparent in this season of his life.

Let us pray for him.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

if a pastor . . . keeps the church books in the red, . . . he has job security.

Is that a typo? Did you mean to say: "If a pastor . . . keeps the books in the black. . . he has job security."?

[lazarus]

traditional pastoral roles are "persuasion" to increase and maintain membership and "administration" managing the financial business of the church.

In my experience the traditional role of the pastor has been, visiting, giving Bible studies, funerals, weddings etc. If by persuasion you mean preaching and teaching and seeking to win souls then I would agree but that is his commission as a Christian and a Pastor. Most pastors wish they could do more winning of souls but these days there is a lot more pastoral care and counseling that is involved than "selling" anything.

There are very few SDA Pastors who are fired simply because tithe is falling or that there are no baptisms. They are often moved to another church perhaps but not fired. There are always other factors invoked when a pastor is fired.

To suggest that a pastor is basically a salesman is really to misunderstand what pastors do.

[debbym]

Quote:

if a pastor . . . keeps the church books in the red, . . . he has job security.

it was an error not a typo, thanks for pointing it out, i was uncertain when i typed it and just did it. i don't do accounting or administration lol.

the former pastors i know struggled with keeping the members pleased. finances are a part of it, doing all the funerals and weddings and visiting, and preaching the right sermons, and giving the right attention to those who feel that is the pastors job. in some places it is members living to strive for perfection vs members who live by faith and the interpretations of that.

i am surprised how some members feel they need to control the pastor or have the pastor be pleasing in just the right way. anyone remember Roger Bothwell? He was a pastor who told wonderful powerful spiritual sermons in stories about Jesus and bible characters in a living way. it was heart reaching. i encountered a member, a soul who believed it was from the devil because he was not just performing a sermon with texts and point and texts and point form of sermon.

i accompanied her to the confrontation with the pastor to kind of mediate the communication. she was a displeased member and disapproving and was going to straighten out that pastor. it was a head shaking experience. pastor's don't want to get those letters from members threatening them with their job if they don't do their job right. His people skills and tact were graciously exercised to no avail. i am sure the conference got her letter.

the exercise of "persuasion" is not just teaching and preaching, it is about pleasing. salesmen simply do not give offense if they want to make a sale. using the term persuasion is not about demeaning the position of pastor to a mere sales person. it is about noting that people and people pleasing skills are measured by the members reactions in part and the skills in handling those reactions towards the pastor in holding his position.

standing in ones convictions in how the Holy Spirit is leading in the faced of a complaining threatening group of members is no small pressure when your livelihood is on the line. to feel one's life in part is in the hands of an impassioned lynch mob is not an enviable position.

some members vote by tithing and offerings. this is a way of controlling in the church. this is nothing new. so we have members sending all their tithes to some place, some mission where they are pleased, and believe the work is being done correctly.

reminds me of Aaron the high priest, he pleased the people, yielded to their life threatening demands, and i wonder if every minister is not tested on this by some members at some time in their service as a pastor.

[fccool]

I tend to think that if the church was structured correctly, then those issues wouldn't even come up, because these would be resolved organically.

Personally, even in the current structured way of church, It's really tiring hearing how difficult the job of a Pastor is. Difficult compared to what? Is it time-consuming... yes... is it difficult? Hardly.

I'm not saying this lightly, because I've been good friends with plenty of pastors, and:

1) There's no hard manual labor involved.

2) Their pay is fairly good, when you consider any alternative jobs with their skillset. If some of the pastors I know attempt to apply for other jobs with their training, they would hardly get the same salary, and there would not be any benefits that go along with it.

3) Most of the "difficulty" revolves around perception and lack of understanding of comparable alternatives.

For example, teachers have to "give sermons" daily, and they are judged by the performance of their students... so there's a quantifiable measurement of how they perform... so there's much more stress due to amount of accountability and responsibility that they take on.

I think that what bothers me the most about it is what Pastoral position has become - a cleric lecturer, who visits people in the hospital. That's not the job, and that's not what I'd pay for! I mean, we've reduced Christian caring to paying people for visiting people in hospitals . Forgive my cynicism, but it doesn't seem like the pinnacle of sincerity, and I don't think it's comforting to me at all. I'd want someone to visit because they care, and not because it's their job to care.

Essentially, I think this is my observation of developing Christianity in the past 20 years. What made Christianity appealing is priorities that it gave people... beyond money, immediate family, or a job.

When I came to this country, I was blown away by the amount of charity and compassion that people would have for virtual nobody, and it made me believe in something greater. Unfortunately, it's the lack of the charity and compassion and people making me a virtual nobody... which made me doubt too as I advanced my spiritual journey through Adventist route.

IMO pastors have much to do with the apathy that I personally observe in Adventism today. Pastor's #1 job is to be a leader, example, and a motivator. It's an extremely important job... pastors are coaches of Christian teams. No matter how good and resourceful team is, without good coaches they loose. Unfortunately, Adventism is loosing... because of the coaches that think that showing up once a week to give a lecture, doing the books, visiting people at hospitals, and conducting weddings and funerals is the extend of their jobs. NO! Your job is to motivate people to positive action as a coherent team that can make visible impact in community that extends beyond "preaching the word".

No one cares about "The word". They want to see that you care beyond dropping a piece of literature at their door, or making sure that they believe what you do enough to make a sizable donation.

I think that's the reason why people like Ryan Bell drop... because once they attempt to do positive things that extends beyond asking people to believe in return, the organizational structure comes down on them hard, especially if those things require substantial resources donated by the people for that exact purpose. It's very difficult to maintain belief and faith when the very people who supposed to exemplify it, end up negating it in the worst possible manner. It makes it seem fake and perfunctory.

[lazarus]

It's really tiring hearing how difficult the job of a Pastor is. Difficult compared to what? Is it time-consuming... yes... is it difficult? Hardly.

Just wondering how many years and what churches have you pastored and in what cultural context?

Quote:

1) There's no hard manual labor involved.

There are very few jobs these days that require hard manual labor. Would you say that a garbage collector has a difficult job?

Quote:

2) Their pay is fairly good, when you consider any alternative jobs with their skillset.

Fairly good is a purely subjective judgement. SDA pastors generally get paid below the national average, partly to do with the way the church is structured. Location can also significantly affects how "good" the pay is. Pastor's get paid relatively moderately for their qualifications and skill-set.

Quote:

If some of the pastors I know attempt to apply for other jobs with their training, they would hardly get the same salary, and there would not be any benefits that go along with it.

That is true of many other professions, even the highest paid professions.

Quote:

3) Most of the "difficulty" revolves around perception and lack of understanding of comparable alternatives.

IMHO, that's is rather simplistic. Care to elaborate and give examples?

Quote:

For example, teachers have to "give sermons" daily, and they are judged by the performance of their students... so there's a quantifiable measurement of how they perform... so there's much more stress due to amount of accountability and responsibility that they take on.

I have a principle who is one of my elders who said to me "I couldn't do what you do, you have a hard job". It's all a matter of perspective, right?. When I taught Bible in one of our SDA schools I had to congratulate the teachers on their commitment and skill. They do have a hard job.

Quote:

I think that what bothers me the most about it is what Pastoral position has become - a cleric lecturer, who visits people in the hospital. That's not the job, and that's not what I'd pay for!

That is definitely not the job. What kind of church do you go to? I would suggest that you don't "pay for" what a pastor does. Perhaps this is why you are "bothered".

[CoAspen]

I think what we are hearing is 'pastor envy'! One can find the same 'whine' argument about teachers quite often. Of course those doing the the 'whine' have never been teachers, likewise a pastor. I'm sure one can find a pastor, teacher or whomever not doing their job or saying how easy it is. So when I hear the 'whine'....I know they haven't done the 'time'!

Pastors are like shepherds, guide, protect, provide food....Christ didn't make the allusion for nothing!

[lazarus]

I think what we are hearing is 'pastor envy'!

Didn't think of that but I was wondering where the "anti-pastor" flavor wafting about this board came from.

[fccool]

Quote:

Just wondering how many years and what churches have you pastored and in what cultural context?

Why would that matter? I've been involved in evangelical ministry quite a bit in my college days, at times it occupied quite a bit of my time... and I get to spend quite a bit of time with pastors, even live with some. Likewise been on plenty extended mission trips in my time.

Although I do agree that my post comes off a bit mean, the purpose of it is not to demean what you do... especially since I can't really know what you personally experience.

There are some very difficult jobs worth complaining about being hard. Pastor's job is not one of these IMO. You get paid for what you love to do... and the alternative would be that you could be doing something much harder, with less benefits, and something you don't enjoy... like many members in your congregation.

That's the point.

The rhetoric should be "I'm grateful to have a job that I love and enjoy, even if it has it's difficulties", instead of "Pastor's job is so difficult", which sends the wrong message IMO.

I've got to speak to some people about it and see what their perception of pastoral job is, and there's this picture of overworked, underpaid person torn in 10 different directions, lacking sleep, frustrated, almost to the point of pitiful .

I've got to think why would such be the general perception? I have to be honest, but prior to joining SDA church, that's not the image that came to mind.

When people enjoy their jobs, why would the congregation perception lean that way? It's not an attempt at bashing anyone. What's different about SDA denomination that makes pastoral job so much more difficult?

[CoAspen]

I wonder if it is about control? That is, a pastor who keeps a tight rein on negativity, direction and content of leadership with in the church. I have been in a church where a pastor lost control and the results were a disaster.

[fccool]

I don't think it's about control. I think it has to do more about the view of Christian suffering that carries over from Catholic era. Suffering was viewed as redemptive, since one "shares" cross with Christ. I think that some of this ideal still lingers in Advenism to the point that suffering is almost equated with "holyness". If you suffer as a Christian, then it must be that you are doing something right, because Devil is after you.

I don't know if you heard anything of the like.

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes, I have encountered that sort of attitude, even right here. There are some situations that arise where the persecution/suffering is basically a self-fulfilling prophecy. The behavior that brings "persecution" is entirely self-generated and not really connected to any real virtue or moral position, etc., but the resulting backlash from others is perceived as validation that they are right. We see it in the obnoxious pushy and rude efforts to push an ideology or particular standard, doctrine, belief, or whatever. The reaction from others is to the bad behavior and not the idea expressed. But the perception of the antagonist is typically blind to the real reason people react badly toward them.

[OzarkWoman]

I have only found one, as yet that is, pastor that really is not pastor material and should not be one, but he is, unfortunately. I think when one considers SDA pastors and how most have more than one church and working to keep it all separate and yet, trying to teach and bring more souls to Jesus.

[Tom Wetmore]

On the point of whether pastors have a hard job or not, I think it really is in large part a lack of real understanding by onlookers. It is the "until you walk a mile in my moccasins" problem. Until you have been there, done that 24/7/365... That really applies for most professions.

And I also think there is a significant denigration of the responsibilities and what it takes to do the job well. Both for the pastor and the onlooker taking it all seriously or not can make a big difference in perception and attitude about being a pastor.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

If you suffer as a Christian, then it must be that you are doing something right, because Devil is after you.

There is that aspect also and still around. I have always cringed at the thought 'you must suffer', to me it paints God in an entirely different light....not a good one!

However, not a reason to downplay a pastors duties.

[lazarus]

Although I do agree that my post comes off a bit mean, the purpose of it is not to demean what you do... especially since I can't really know what you personally experience.

Don't worry I'm not taking it personally.

Quote:

There are some very difficult jobs worth complaining about being hard. Pastor's job is not one of these IMO. You get paid for what you love to do... and the alternative would be that you could be doing something much harder, with less benefits, and something you don't enjoy... like many members in your congregation.

One can have a hard job and still love it. It's just that there are some aspects of it that are hard and perhaps not very enjoyable. Often its the hard parts that are not enjoyable. A fireman may love his job but it's hard to arrive at an accident and see a child's mangled body.

Some of the things I do you might find easy, I don't know. Very often I find them difficult.

I also don't really think SDA pastors have a harder time than anyone else. Among my non-SDA clergy associates I hear the same shop talk. I seem to make an immediate connection with any pastor I meet because our challenges and joys are essentially the same. I'm not saying that being a pastor is so so so difficult. Sometimes it's hard sometimes its not. Some people find it harder than others. Pastoring in different context presents different challenges. The challenges and issues faced by a pastor in DC may be different to a pastor in rural Virginia. They have a calling to preach, teach, lead and counsel but that manifests itself in significantly different ways.

Quote:

The rhetoric should be "I'm grateful to have a job that I love and enjoy, even if it has it's difficulties", instead of "Pastor's job is so difficult", which sends the wrong message IMO.

Maybe you hang around the wrong pastors! When we get together to hang out there's a lot of laughter, and stupid stories.

On the other hand Jesus was a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief! Read Paul's letters/ The work of the ministry is hard work. As you read scripture the biggest struggle comes from within rather than without. The greatest difficulty I have had within the church is from my fellow Christians.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I have always cringed at the thought 'you must suffer', to me it paints God in an entirely different light.

The Word says you "will suffer persecution", not 'you must', to those who live Godly lives.

OTOH, since suffering is allowed by God to enter into the disciple's life as a means to make him/her seek Him more earnestly, and will ultimately lead to rewards of everlasting eternal consequence for good in the Kingdom, to the overcomer, why would that make our opinion see the Father in a negative light?

"Each time he said, “My grace is all you need. My power works best in weakness.” So now I am glad to boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ can work through me. That’s why I take pleasure in my weaknesses, and in the insults, hardships, persecutions, and troubles that I suffer for Christ. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Cor 12:9-11 NLT

This text reveals a trust that not all have, however it does seem a worthy goal for which to reach, for the glory of God.

Jesus cares! God saves!