Doctrines of Devils and Seducing Spirits, Spiritual Formation

[M. T. Cross]

Have you ever heard the words desecrate, making it a 'den of thieves' or offering 'strange fire', God cares about what goes on in His temple.

Now while some may try to say there are good points or uses for the spiritual formation message and point to its meditation or other parts of it, it really comes from ancient heathen religions and pagan mystics. The contemplative/centering prayer, or breath prayers, where the participants are taught to listen to their breathing and to empty their minds through the repetition of a word or phrase brings into mind more of ancient eastern religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism than Christianity.

It is the same technique used by ancient pagans, New Age proponents, and spiritualistic mediums when they go into séances. The person goes into an altered state of consciousness through self ­hypnosis, the mind is opened to spiritual impressions and messages, and Satan can come in and take control of the mind. I don't think that has any business in our churches much less being forced on members by the Pastors and Conference leaders.

[debbym]

Quote:

It seems to me that Buddhists are probably the most peaceful and spiritually sound people there are. Overall they live lives of kindness, hope and peace. There really is something to be said for that, for how they get to that spot. They also tend, if they are fairly strict Buddhists to be very very physically healthy people as well. Breathing is the very essence of staying alive, and many of the breathing techniques they use in their meditations are physically beneficial.

The other interesting point you bring up is the practices of ancient pagans. I would be extremely interested in where you are getting your information from! Considering that modern pagans play a guessing game at what the actual practices of ancient pagans were, it would be very enlightening to have a look at the sources you seem to have! Very exciting.

one's spirituality is comprised of their relationships, and how those relationships are conducted.

there is a lot of religious experience in cultures and belief systems around the world. and commonly and frequently it involves changing ones state of consciousness, or altering ones consciousness and then calling that the God experience or spiritual experience. it is a willfully intentionally generated self expression and is usually associated with a feel good aspect. it is usual for it to involve some measure of a trance state, and their are many degrees of altered consciousness through trance states. it has been researched and Lynn Denan produced a study and compilation of these forms of religious experiences in various cultures around the world. Thailand was a rich source of religious experience for this study.

this information supports not believing in God since these experiences really only involve a natural range of humanly derived religious experiences, God is not really involved.

and people have been calling trance states God experiences for a long time.

i think this is why some individuals are uncomfortable with the new age type exercises that are experienced as "god" experiences apart from an understanding of scripture.

people are really capable of generating lots of feelings and altered states, and calling it God. i can see how confusion can set in.

[Reddogs]

I will give you even more context, every elder and almost every leader who had been there when the new Pastor came was taken out and the founder, the one who started the church back decades ago was told by phone, not face to face that he was no longer wanted on the church board and move on. They put in people who had no idea what was going on or had just moved to the area or retired, and the worse part is that we informed the conference of the improprieties in procedure and complete disregard of the members votes for the pre-nomination committee who were taken out and the Pastor then had put whoever he decided, and the conference sent high level people who basically came to church on Sabbath and left without talking to anyone and the others just sat on the new church board, AFTER all our elders had been taken out, to see what was happening without talking to any of the longtime leaders and elders and member. They pretended to investigate and when I went to question them and their method I was told to 'email' my concerns and I wont repeat the answer I got, but I know a brush off when I see one.

We will go forward and start with nothing, and build another church, but the disingenuous methods and dishonesty especially from the conference is a eye opener. There will be no help when this flood of spiritualism comes, only those who discern and have eyes that see and ears that hear will be ready for it. It has come to several conferences nearby so I cannot speak to those far away, but don't think for a minute it will not come with the schools teaching these methods and the new pastors taking 'training' at Willow Creek, a apostasy of the most startling nature was more true than I would ever imagine, and now I see what was meant by 1 in 20........

[Green Cochoa]

Quote:

It seems to me that Buddhists are probably the most peaceful and spiritually sound people there are. Overall they live lives of kindness, hope and peace. There really is something to be said for that, for how they get to that spot. They also tend, if they are fairly strict Buddhists to be very very physically healthy people as well. Breathing is the very essence of staying alive, and many of the breathing techniques they use in their meditations are physically beneficial.

I live among Buddhists. Most of the people around me every day are Buddhists. They happen to be some of the drinkingest, thievingest people I've met. They have a great deal of pride embedded in their culture. Apart from that, yes, the devil mostly leaves them alone, because they are already his. Why should he trouble them overly much?

As for them being "spiritually sound," they are much the same as Catholics--that is, their religion is more "tradition" and "culture" than "belief." If you ask them, they will rarely know why they believe or do as they do.

That said, yes, they can be some of the happiest people around; respectful and polite. I enjoy working with them very much.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[Reddogs]

Quote:

It seems to me that Buddhists are probably the most peaceful and spiritually sound people there are. Overall they live lives of kindness, hope and peace. There really is something to be said for that, for how they get to that spot. They also tend, if they are fairly strict Buddhists to be very very physically healthy people as well. Breathing is the very essence of staying alive, and many of the breathing techniques they use in their meditations are physically beneficial.

I live among Buddhists. Most of the people around me every day are Buddhists. They happen to be some of the drinkingest, thievingest people I've met. They have a great deal of pride embedded in their culture. Apart from that, yes, the devil mostly leaves them alone, because they are already his. Why should he trouble them overly much?

As for them being "spiritually sound," they are much the same as Catholics--that is, their religion is more "tradition" and "culture" than "belief." If you ask them, they will rarely know why they believe or do as they do.

That said, yes, they can be some of the happiest people around; respectful and polite. I enjoy working with them very much.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Yes GH, one of our friends is a Buddhists Priest and he told us it was basically the same system as the Catholic religion as he had been one, sans a central papacy.

[Reddogs]

Originally Posted By: Reddogs

Have you ever heard the words desecrate, making it a 'den of thieves' or offering 'strange fire', God cares about what goes on in His temple.

Now while some may try to say there are good points or uses for the spiritual formation message and point to its meditation or other parts of it, it really comes from ancient heathen religions and pagan mystics. The contemplative/centering prayer, or breath prayers, where the participants are taught to listen to their breathing and to empty their minds through the repetition of a word or phrase brings into mind more of ancient eastern religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism than Christianity.

It is the same technique used by ancient pagans, New Age proponents, and spiritualistic mediums when they go into séances. The person goes into an altered state of consciousness through self ­hypnosis, the mind is opened to spiritual impressions and messages, and Satan can come in and take control of the mind. I don't think that has any business in our churches much less being forced on members by the Pastors and Conference leaders.

Honestly if as a denomination the decision is that it should not be part of the SDA church then that's fair enough. But as far as I know that decision has not been made. I think if you are uncomfortable with it, then you personally should not have any part of it. But I don't think it really gives you or anyone else the right to say what others should or should not do.

You bring up a couple of interesting points however.

It seems to me that Buddhists are probably the most peaceful and spiritually sound people there are. Overall they live lives of kindness, hope and peace. There really is something to be said for that, for how they get to that spot. They also tend, if they are fairly strict Buddhists to be very very physically healthy people as well. Breathing is the very essence of staying alive, and many of the breathing techniques they use in their meditations are physically beneficial.

The other interesting point you bring up is the practices of ancient pagans. I would be extremely interested in where you are getting your information from! Considering that modern pagans play a guessing game at what the actual practices of ancient pagans were, it would be very enlightening to have a look at the sources you seem to have! Very exciting.

Originally Posted By: Reddogs

I will explain it to you this way, we had the Book and Bible mobile come one Saturday night, and the new leaders decide to present their ideas of how to 'evangelize' and advertised it and put up a stage and brought their 'band' and 'Rocked the Casbah'. Needless to say few people from nearby who came were 'converted' by this method and the members who came for the bookmobile were put off and members from other churches commented negatively on what was happening.

This is not what God's people should be using and there was nothing spiritual in how and what they put up, but who knows, maybe they are the 'wheat' in how good they rock and can blast out the decibels, and Willow Creek is spreading the new manna from above, what do you think.

I would say that you have know idea how many people were converted. People generally do not convert over night.

I have noticed however Red, that you have not directly answered even one of my questions. They were asked in sincerity and I would love a direct response.

What question would you like answered, as the issue has been laid out in a clear manner from my perspective, but I will await your question.

Now let me ask a question in return, as for the real conversion, how do you think 'Rock and Roll' converts one and how does it uplift, and which direction in their spiritual lives does it take most people, explain that to me?

[Now take into account I grew up in the time of the music from 'Black Sabbath, Led Zep, and Santana' so I would honestly like a answer on that]

[Guest arnie]

Red dog,

"drums and other strange music'? Who determines what is other "strange"music? Drums are played in orchestra, they are referred to as "percussion" which would include, base, kettle, tympani, cymbals . . etc. AND, I would conclude that King David probably used in his repertoire. I wonder if he knew he was into "strange music"? Arnie

[Reddogs]

Red dog,

"drums and other strange music'? Who determines what is other "strange"music? Drums are played in orchestra, they are referred to as "percussion" which would include, base, kettle, tympani, cymbals . . etc. AND, I would conclude that King David probably used in his repertoire. I wonder if he knew he was into "strange music"? Arnie

My brother, I grew up with the Latin beat, the rhythms of the island with the drums and the pounding force in rock. I know what the throbbing beat of rock or salsa does, it provides a carnal not spiritual experience. Its effect on the mind and body is not a secret the sexual release can be seen on any MTV concert, Rock music is openly sex, and you just take the kids away from their parents and their environment to where the only reality is the rhythm and the beat and see what happens. As one musician gloated..."Rock music is a greater influence over the souls of men than primitive Christianity." When Jimmy Hendrix asks 'are you experienced', its not about your walk with God he is talking about. I don't think we need look far to find the answer on this question when it comes to the beat and rhythm of the drum.

[M. T. Cross]

What question would you like answered, as the issue has been laid out in a clear manner from my perspective, but I will await your question.

Now let me ask a question in return, as for the real conversion, how do you think 'Rock and Roll' converts one and how does it uplift, and which direction in their spiritual lives does it take most people, explain that to me?

[Now take into account I grew up in the time of the music from 'Black Sabbath, Led Zep, and Santana' so I would honestly like a answer on that]

[CoAspen]

Have a good recliner.......?

[M. T. Cross]

Have a good recliner.......?

Sadly no I do not....... just love the punishment I guess

[CoAspen]

Wanted you to comfortable while waiting.........

[AdventistWoman]

"In his keynote sermon, Ted N.C. Wilson, the President of the Seventh-Day Adventist church counseled,

“Stay away from non-biblical spiritual disciplines or methods of spiritual formation that are rooted in mysticism such as contemplative prayer, centering prayer, and the emerging church movement in which they are promoted.”

Why would Elder Wilson ask us to stay away from spiritual disciplines or formation? But it appears there are whole conferences who are going full force into these dangerous practices. The spiritual formation movement is spreading in our church but it is a move away from the truth of God's Word into a mystical form of Christianity, and it has infiltrated, to some degree, nearly all Christian denominations."

I think that this is ridiculous. To make the video that they did, acting as if they are against Spiritual Formation, when its all through the Church now. It reminds me of Aaron when he was like, wow... I was just going along and this GOLDEN CALF just sort of popped up!

And the way that Derek Morris, or whatever his name is, I cannot recall... acts like he just realized that Spiritual Formation was wrong. OH really?

These guys are like, "Oh wow... you mean its wrong for Seventh Day Adventists to be doing the Jesuit Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius Loyola? I didn't realize that!" Who are they trying to fool anyway? I guess it must be working though, there are plenty enough naïve and gullible Adventists who believe they all just didn't realize that they were doing anything wrong. Its probably just that they got caught and so now they have got to back peddle and act as if they didn't know what they were doing.

[M. T. Cross]

These guys are like, "Oh wow... you mean its wrong for Seventh Day Adventists to be doing the Jesuit Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius Loyola? I didn't realize that!" Who are they trying to fool anyway? I guess it must be working though, there are plenty enough naïve and gullible Adventists who believe they all just didn't realize that they were doing anything wrong. Its probably just that they got caught and so now they have got to back peddle and act as if they didn't know what they were doing.

So is it just because it is a Jesuit practice that you should stay away from it?

Thing is, Jesuits also read the Bible, pray and seek God in the so called normal fashion as well. So maybe you should stay away from that as well. They also eat, drink, shower, sleep and go to work.

I certainly am not a fan of most things connected to the RCC but to dismiss something just because it is done by them or a sect within them is lunacy.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Why would Elder Wilson ask us to stay away from spiritual disciplines or formation? But it appears there are whole conferences who are going full force into these dangerous practices.

Maybe there are assumptions that what was spoken against is the same as what is being practised?

Among certain peoples there is a fear of certain 'words' with out understanding the definitions there of or what the various meanings may actually be. How many 'conferences' have you asked, verified or asertained in any way as to what type of practises they have and do they fit with what Wilson was speaking against?

[Johann]

Accusations based on "seems like"?

[Dr. Waite]

The fruits of doubt are not desirable. Oh! look around you and see what havoc has been wrought by the machinations of the evil one. Error and falsehood and heresy have held high carnival in the deceived hearts of men. From century to century the adversary has repeated his experiments with growing success; for in spite of the sad records of lives that have gone out in darkness, as moths fly to the fire, so men rush on into the ruinous deceptions that he has prepared to entrap them. If you desire salvation, I entreat you to shun his insinuations concerning the truth of God's word. Come to the "sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place." If that is not authoritative, what is? If the word of the Lord of heaven and earth is not solid rock upon which to build, then it is in vain to look for a sure foundation. "Heaven and earth shall pass away," but "the word of the Lord endureth forever;" and unwavering faith in his word is the only faith that will endure through the perils of the last days.... By Mrs. E. G. White. R&H "The Faith That Will Stand the Test" Vol. 65, #2

Fundamental Belief number 5 states that the holy spirit comes in the name of "GOD THE ETERNAL SPIRIT" or "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT" Is this a false doctrine?

My Bible states that the holy spirit comes in the name of Jesus Christ or Yeshua Ha-Mashiach:

Quote:

But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 14:26

[AdventistWoman]

Same old rigmarole. Is it any wonder why the Seventh Day Adventist Church is in the condition that it is today? Not to me it isn't. No mater what you say, someone will ALWAYS come up with some way to dodge the obvious truth about things. Even if you pointed out that the Leadership was consulting the Devil himself on how to conduct the Church, somebody would say something like, "Well, the Devil isn't all bad, you know? Surely we can get some good out of what he does. Do you have evidence to substantiate what you say about him?" And even if you take the time to meticulously spell out everything for them, they would just sit there and come up with some other nonsense as a way to try to get around it. It is just pathetic. I float into this place, and just as quickly float out again. Since I'm not a masochist, and I don't like wasting time on pointless exercises. Better to go out and tell the Three Angel's Messages to those who never heard it and who will be willing to receive it then waste precious time trying to contradict those who are stationed in the SDA Church to try to continue to bring it further down to ruin.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I, for one, don't have such a pessimistic view of the church. Yeah, it's got a lot of cognitive dissonance, as Bravus noted, but I haven't heard of any denomination, except perhaps the LDS faith, that doesn't.

I actually *like* a bit of mysticism in my religious experience. But one needs to be able to recognize that which comes from the darker side vs that which is of God. And I prefer the encountering of the mysticism in my own *personal* devotions. I do not like corporate things, such as "responsive readings," the communion service, or even public prayer. But that's just *me.*

My own opinion on "centering" prayer and such, is that it should NOT be taught at schools or churches. While it most certainly *can* help focus one's mind on God, it can also easily be misused. Some people are more prone to self-hypnotic states than other people. That's my qualm about the use of centering and the like.

But, I think sometimes people forget that they're not the ones who are "in charge" -- God's in charge. He's not gone on vacation to the Bahamas...

[CoAspen]

I believe there are text/s over in the NT about those that 'back bite', 'false witness', etc.

Quote:

No mater what you say, someone will ALWAYS come up with some way to dodge the obvious truth about things. Even if you pointed out that the Leadership was consulting the Devil himself on how to conduct the Church, somebody would say something like, "Well, the Devil isn't all bad, you know?

Really? Innuendo! Truth is important and always has been, whether in support of or against something. Christ came to correct misunderstandings about God, so, for me, truth will always win out.

[M. T. Cross]

I float into this place, and just as quickly float out again. Since I'm not a masochist, and I don't like wasting time on pointless exercises. Better to go out and tell the Three Angel's Messages to those who never heard it and who will be willing to receive it then waste precious time trying to contradict those who are stationed in the SDA Church to try to continue to bring it further down to ruin.

Well thanks for dropping by and correcting us all. Very big of you and sorry to waste your precious time.

But let me ask you something. How do you determine who it is that has never heard the message and who will be willing to receive it? Really if you walked up my driveway and knocked on my door would you walk away feeling like you had wasted your oh so precious time? Or would you hang around long enough to have a quality conversation in which you might actually learn something as well?

As for those "stationed in the SDA Church to try to continue to bring it further down to ruin", are you serious? Really? Maybe some people actually like to investigate a subject before they decide its merits and qualities. That often involves discussion and debate, two things that can be done with dignity and respect (though I have noted a great number of people can't seem to do that)and to the benefit of both parties involved in the debate and discussion. I know I come along and point out what I see as flaws in Christianity and the SDA church, but I have less than zero interest in bringing you denomination to ruin. Interesting that you should be able to have such insight into the motivation of others - sounds like mysticism to me.

[M. T. Cross]

Wanted you to comfortable while waiting.........

Sure wishing I had that chair now......

[Gregory Matthews]

Dr. Waite said:

Quote:

Fundamental Belief number 5 states that the holy spirit comes in the name of "GOD THE ETERNAL SPIRIT" or "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT" Is this a false doctrine?

This is fundamental belief # 5:

Quote:

God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He inspired the writers of Scripture. He filled Christ’s life with power. He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God. Sent by the Father and the Son to be always with His children, He extends spiritual gifts to the church, empowers it to bear witness to Christ, and in harmony with the Scriptures leads it into all truth. (Gen. 1:1, 2; Luke 1:35; 4:18; Acts 10:38; 2 Peter 1:21; 2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:11, 12; Acts 1:8; John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26, 27; 16:7-13.)

Dr. Waite, you have not accurately cited fundamental belief # 5.

You will note that nowhere does it say that the Holy Spirit comes in the name of God the eternal spirit. What it does is to call the Holy Spirit God and to attribute the Holy Spirit to being the eternal spirit. If you wish, this might be stated as saying: Fundamental belief calls the Holy Spirit both God and the eternal Spirit.

On a smaller point, you have cited "GOD THE ETERNAL SPIRIT" in capital letters. That is inaccurate. Fundamental belief uses lower case letters--"God the eternal Spirit." While some may believe this is a small point, it simply illustrates your failure to correctly quote. It would have been more accurate if you had informed us that you had made that change.

[Gregory Matthews]

For those of you who may be interested in the many Biblical names of Christ, check out the following:

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Yeshua/yeshua.html

As for the Biblical names of the Holy Spirit:

The Bible gives many names to the Holy Spirit. Google "Biblical names for the Holy Spirit" and you will see many lists of Biblical names.

Here is one:

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/dictionary-of-bible-themes/3110-Holy-Spirit-titles-names

NOTE: I do not claim that this is the best listing.

[Dr. Waite]

For those of you who may be interested in the many Biblical names of Christ, check out the following:

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Yeshua/yeshua.html

As for the Biblical names of the Holy Spirit:

The Bible gives many names to the Holy Spirit. Google "Biblical names for the Holy Spirit" and you will see many lists of Biblical names.

Here is one:

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/dictionary-of-bible-themes/3110-Holy-Spirit-titles-names

NOTE: I do not claim that this is the best listing.

is "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT" a Biblical name given to the holy spirit?