DINOSAUR BONES FOUND IN SAUDI ARABIA FOR THE FIRST TIME

[debbym]

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I believe that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I don't find the Biblical account of Jesus' resurrection sufficient evidence for pretty much the same reason that I don't find blurry photographs sufficient evidence for UFO visitation, or a collection of emotionally-charged testimonials sufficient evidence for medical quackery.

i spoke with someone who had been raised from the dead, and i spoke with the doctor who with all her professional expertise who was a witness to it.

it was an extraordinary story.

[LifeHiscost]

Your word or theirs'? In the political world I know it can be difficult to find the truth. So I was off 20 million. Instead it was 60 million. See figures below.

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How Many People Did Joseph Stalin Kill?

By Palash Ghosh

on March 05 2013

Joseph Stalin, who died 60 years ago in Moscow, was a small man -- no more than 5-foot-4. The abused son of a poor, alcoholic Georgian cobbler, Josef Vissarionovich Djughashvili (the future Stalin) also had a withered arm, a clubbed foot and a face scarred by small pox, but he stood very tall as one of history’s most prolific killers.

How Many People Did Joseph Stalin Kill?

Soviet Union General Secretary Josef Stalin in 1943.

Stalin’s extremely brutal 30-year rule as absolute ruler of the Soviet Union featured so many atrocities, including purges, expulsions, forced displacements, imprisonment in labor camps, manufactured famines, torture and good old-fashioned acts of mass murder and massacres (not to mention World War II) that the complete toll of bloodshed will likely never be known.

An amoral psychopath and paranoid with a gangster’s mentality, Stalin eliminated anyone and everyone who was a threat to his power – including (and especially) former allies. He had absolutely no regard for the sanctity of human life.

But how many people is he responsible for killing?

Related

How Joseph Stalin (Inadvertently) Saved Some Of Poland’s Jews

Stalin’s Daughter: Defection By Way of India

In February 1989, two years before the fall of the Soviet Union, a research paper by Georgian historian Roy Aleksandrovich Medvedev published in the weekly tabloid Argumenti i Fakti estimated that the death toll directly attributable to Stalin’s rule amounted to some 20 million lives (on top of the estimated 20 million Soviet troops and civilians who perished in the Second World War), for a total tally of 40 million.

''It's important that they published it, although the numbers themselves are horrible,'' Medvedev told the New York Times at the time.

''Those numbers include my father.''

Medevedev's grim bookkeeping included the following tragic episodes: 1 million imprisoned or exiled between 1927 to 1929; 9 to 11 million peasants forced off their lands and another 2 to 3 million peasants arrested or exiled in the mass collectivization program; 6 to 7 million killed by an artificial famine in 1932-1934; 1 million exiled from Moscow and Leningrad in 1935; 1 million executed during the ''Great Terror'' of 1937-1938; 4 to 6 million dispatched to forced labor camps; 10 to 12 million people forcibly relocated during World War II; and at least 1 million arrested for various “political crimes” from 1946 to 1953.

Although not everyone who was swept up in the aforementioned events died from unnatural causes, Medvedev’s 20 million non-combatant deaths estimate is likely a conservative guess.

Indeed, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the literary giant who wrote harrowingly about the Soviet gulag system, claimed the true number of Stalin’s victims might have been as high as 60 million.

Most other estimates from reputed scholars and historians tend to range from between 20 and 60 million.

In his book, “Unnatural Deaths in the U.S.S.R.: 1928-1954,” I.G. Dyadkin estimated that the USSR suffered 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" during that period, with 34 to 49 million directly linked to Stalin.

In “Europe A History,” British historian Norman Davies counted 50 million killed between 1924-53, excluding wartime casualties.

Alexander Nikolaevich Yakovlev, a Soviet politician and historian, estimated 35 million deaths

underlined mine LHC

See why my hopes are established on Someone more trustworthy than those made up in the minds of ordinary humans.

God/Jesus saves!

[LifeHiscost]

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i spoke with someone who had been raised from the dead, and i spoke with the doctor who with all her professional expertise who was a witness to it.

it was an extraordinary story.

debbym, it would be so helpful to those whose faith needs something on which to hang their belief, if you were to tell the story. While i recognize the enemy of souls will use whatever men will accept as an excuse when they don't understand how much they are loved by the Creator (Father) God, there is even greater reward for those who have not seen but still believe.

"Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”"John 20:29 NKJV

Jesus/God saves!

[Igakusei]

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I believe that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I don't find the Biblical account of Jesus' resurrection sufficient evidence for pretty much the same reason that I don't find blurry photographs sufficient evidence for UFO visitation, or a collection of emotionally-charged testimonials sufficient evidence for medical quackery.

i spoke with someone who had been raised from the dead, and i spoke with the doctor who with all her professional expertise who was a witness to it.

it was an extraordinary story.

How long were they dead, and how did you know?

[fccool]

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In his book, “Unnatural Deaths in the U.S.S.R.: 1928-1954,” I.G. Dyadkin estimated that the USSR suffered 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" during that period, with 34 to 49 million directly linked to Stalin.

I'm not going to justify the tactics of early USSR, but I think I've made my point that you are now attempting to make relevant...

My point that your says USSR leadership killed 40 million post WWII is grossly exaggerated number. In the books you are describing, the demographics throws in "unnatural deaths" attributed to the regime, but it's utterly ridiculous.

For example, 10 million people (including my grandparents) were relocated forcefully to populate desolate regions of the USSR. Many of them died of disease... yet all of the 10 million would often be thrown into the number of "murdered".

In Post WWII Russia, which was nearly destroyed by German invasion, living situations were not ideal to begin with. Counting "unnatural deaths" in such environment is ridiculous, considering that my Grandparents in Ukraine had to settle for bread and onions as their food for a large part of that winter.

In history, these numbers are thrown around without any consideration about methods by which these people arrived at these numbers, what records they used, and how they delineated between death caused by Soviet Regime, for death caused by post WWI or post WWII.

Either way, it's a bit off-topic.

[LifeHiscost]

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Either way, it's a bit off-topic.

Yeh!!

God/Jesus saves!

[Gerr]

If the God of heaven could not convince you with all the evidences that point to His power and majesty, and the cloud of witnesses that He has surrounded you with, it would be utterly foolish for me to think I could change your mind with the pitiful amount of knowledge I have. If the greatest minds could not even make the Biosphere self-sustaining in spite of starting with the living things they themselves did not create, I prefer to believe there was/is a Mastermind behind what I see, feel, hear, and experience. Like I said, it never ceases to amaze me how otherwise intelligent people could/would never believe that a computer or its OS, or that a 747 could come into existence out of the blue, yet believe that something more complex than these

could come about on their own! Why, that would be a miracle! Something science is not supposed to espouse!

[fccool]

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If the God of heaven could not convince you with all the evidences that point to His power and majesty, and the cloud of witnesses that He has surrounded you with, it would be utterly foolish for me to think I could change your mind with the pitiful amount of knowledge I have.

If God really wanted to convince me that your view is in line with his... and that I'm wrong about mine, then He would have already.

He would know exactly what would convince me, and it wouldn't take any real effort on His part to do so. I'm convinced of a wide variety of things all the time.

So, several possibilities should flow out of it:

1) God doesn't want to convince me.

2) God doesn't care if I'm convinced of the truth.

3) God wants me to be convinced based on evidence that I don't find convincing, even though He knows exactly what type of evidence would convince me (which is not too different from #1)

4) Your view of God is wrong

There are other possibilities, but I'll leave these out for the sake of this particular discussion.

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If the greatest minds could not even make the Biosphere self-sustaining in spite of starting with the living things they themselves did not create, I prefer to believe there was/is a Mastermind behind what I see, feel, hear, and experience.

You don't make much sense here. How does your preference logically flow from your observation?

1) Observation: Greatest minds could not make the biosphere self-sustaining, in spite of starting with the living things they didn't create

First of all, why would there be a requirement for the greatest minds to do that? The basic rules of physics dictate our existence, and nothing in this universe is really self-sustaining.

2) Preference: I prefer to believe there was/is a Mastermind behind what I see, feel, hear, and experience.

How does that flow from your observation that something is not possible? It's like saying "If the greatest human athlete can't jump higher than than 7 feet, I prefer to believe that there is an entity that can jump over a mountain". That's essentially how your logic looks to me here.

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Like I said, it never ceases to amaze me how otherwise intelligent people could/would never believe that a computer or its OS, or that a 747 could come into existence out of the blue, yet believe that something more complex than these

could come about on their own! Why, that would be a miracle! Something science is not supposed to espouse!

We don't believe that OS and 747s assemble on their own, because we KNOW that they don't. We have living examples of programmers, and engineers that built those things. We actually see these, unlike your example of "hidden mastermind" that we don't see.

In your case, not only you can't provide us an example of God, but you jumping to conclusions that are not justifiable using your own logic:

1) When you compare design, you actually distinguish it from non-design (in nature). For example we know that OS is designed, because rocks and sand are not designed.

2) In your case, everything is designed. So, how is it that you don't look at a grain of sand as an example, and instead give us OS and 747s?

3) In your case, how do you distinguish between a grain of sand, which is designed, and a human being, which is also designed? Why should complexity even be an issue here, when you claim that everything was designed?

4) If you claim everything was designed, then how do you determine that a grain of sand was designed? What do you point to in that case?

5) If you claim that complex entities must have designer... who designed God, which is the most complex entity there is?

So, you see... you can't even live up to your own logical expectations.

[Igakusei]

Are you going to defend the flood nonsense you asserted earlier or are you just going to keep making broad accusations and waving your arms?

You made a vastly overstated claim that you cannot possibly back up, and I challenged you on it. Instead of trying to "other" me, why not answer my challenge directly and stop changing the topic?

[Gerr]

I'd be happy to provide more information if you

show the plane and computer that created themselves. It doesn't have to be a 747, an early Wright Brother's model will suffice, and the computer doesn't to be a Cray or even an IBM 286, an abacus will do.

[fccool]

Gerry, you seem to refuse to read, or read selectively? I'll have to repeat this:

We don't believe that OS and 747s assemble on their own, because we KNOW that they don't. We have living examples of programmers, and engineers that built those things. We actually see these, unlike your example of "hidden mastermind" that we don't see.

In your case, not only you can't provide us an example of God, but you jumping to conclusions that are not justifiable using your own logic:

1) When you compare design, you actually distinguish it from non-design (in nature). For example we know that OS is designed, because rocks and sand are not designed.

2) In your case, everything is designed. So, how is it that you don't look at a grain of sand as an example, and instead give us OS and 747s?

3) In your case, how do you distinguish between a grain of sand, which is designed, and a human being, which is also designed? Why should complexity even be an issue here, when you claim that everything was designed?

4) If you claim everything was designed, then how do you determine that a grain of sand was designed? What do you point to in that case?

5) If you claim that complex entities must have designer... who designed God, which is the most complex entity there is?

So, you see... you can't even live up to your own logical expectations.

[LifeHiscost]

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4) If you claim everything was designed, then how do you determine that a grain of sand was designed? What do you point to in that case?

While this wasn't addressed to me, I thought you might be interested in the thoughts of another disciple of Christ. Shift gears from the sand and look at snowflakes. I'm sure numbering them just from the beginning of creation is beyond the realm of possibility. Yet never has there been found one identical to another. No doubt some won't accept that reality at face value, nevertheless trying to fit that fact into the theory of evolution takes far more faith, something that can't be measured in a test tube, than the belief by faith that Jesus was born of a virgin to be incarnated as the Son of God and accepting that everything He said about Himself is true.

He even left something in His Word that allows anyone who wishes, to prove Him, if they are willing to put their effort toward that end. It happens to be one of the first major building blocks of my own journey to let Him prove Himself to me.

"Bring the tenth part into the store-house, so that there may be food in My house. Test Me in this,” says the Lord of All. “See if I will not then open the windows of heaven and pour out good things for you until there is no more need. " Malachi 3:10 NLT

Jesus/God saves!

[Aliensanctuary]

Alas! There will always be enmity between those whose distant ancestors were poo-throwers, and those of us who have descended from the slaves who were abandoned after their masters left this planet to fight a terrible war.

Of course there are the fossil and other geological evidence which hint at our planet's past, but the descendents of poo-throwers and slaves must always disagree on how that evidence can be interpreted. Just because those with degrees have an explanation of ancient geological history doesn't necessarily mean that they are correct.

It would be a simple matter for highly advanced scientists to repair deformed or missing limbs, and even resurrect an individual, using highly sophisticated DNA repair and memory storage techniques. This, of course, is likely beyond any human's ability, but Jesus was able to access this technology, and the healing, limb repair, and even resurrections were performed at his request. On his own, he was human, and couldn't heal a flea, but his master, and ours, could do far more.

Now to me, it's amazing that the descendents of the poo-throwers, the Darwinians, believe that the vast complexity of the program of life created itself mainly through randomness and eons, and, that the complex and mysterious structure of matter also created itself, even out of nothing but empty space.

I see the learned scientists, and I do respect them, as naked men parading around all puffed up and proud in their nakedness, all the while insisting that they are fully clothed. Truth, about the universe and our origins will be revealed, not to those who happen to have degrees or think highly of their education, but to the simple who believe.

[phkrause]

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4) If you claim everything was designed, then how do you determine that a grain of sand was designed? What do you point to in that case?

While this wasn't addressed to me, I thought you might be interested in the thoughts of another disciple of Christ. Shift gears from the sand and look at snowflakes. I'm sure numbering them just from the beginning of creation is beyond the realm of possibility. Yet never has there been found one identical to another. No doubt some won't accept that reality at face value, nevertheless trying to fit that fact into the theory of evolution takes far more faith, something that can't be measured in a test tube, than the belief by faith that Jesus was born of a virgin to be incarnated as the Son of God and accepting that everything He said about Himself is true.

He even left something in His Word that allows anyone who wishes, to prove Him, if they are willing to put their effort toward that end. It happens to be one of the first major building blocks of my own journey to let Him prove Himself to me.

"Bring the tenth part into the store-house, so that there may be food in My house. Test Me in this,” says the Lord of All. “See if I will not then open the windows of heaven and pour out good things for you until there is no more need. " Malachi 3:10 NLT

Jesus/God saves!

Excellent point LHC. And to bring that point closer! Many years ago I had a choice to make. Pay my tithe or pay a bill!! I decided to pay my tithe. A few days later I got a check in the mail for the exact amount I owed in that bill I chose not to pay. So yes if we are really interested in looking to prove him, there are many ways. Also about a yr and a half ago, when we needed to move back to Mass, because of our grandchildren, which at this time I wont go into the details. We needed about $1900 to get into an apartment or loose our grandchildren into the foster care system, it was provided for us. Here's one of my favorite verse's in the Bible from Deuteronomy 4:29 However, from there you will seek ADONAI your God; and you will find him if you search after him with all your heart and being.

[fccool]

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Shift gears from the sand and look at snowflakes. I'm sure numbering them just from the beginning of creation is beyond the realm of possibility. Yet never has there been found one identical to another.

Yes... and? There are no rocks identical to other either.

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No doubt some won't accept that reality at face value, nevertheless trying to fit that fact into the theory of evolution takes far more faith

What fact? I don't really follow how you connect that with theory of evolution? Yes, snowflakes are unique, because of natural forces that form them. Faith is a belief that isn't supported by justifiable evidence. I have no problem with individual's faith, but knowledge is generally more reliable than faith.

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something that can't be measured in a test tube, than the belief by faith that Jesus was born of a virgin to be incarnated as the Son of God and accepting that everything He said about Himself is true.

Sure, that's why it's called faith. Science doesn't challenge faith... but faith can't be science. That's the whole point. I don't question your personal beliefs. But beliefs and truth are two different things. For you to claim truths you have to be able to justify your beliefs.

Otherwise, these stay where they are - in "your yet to be justified beliefs" box

[Igakusei]

I'd be happy to provide more information if you

show the plane and computer that created themselves. It doesn't have to be a 747, an early Wright Brother's model will suffice, and the computer doesn't to be a Cray or even an IBM 286, an abacus will do.

You started both of these conversations, but you started the flood one first. So let's just deal with one thing at a time, okay?

Maybe after you provide some evidence that you weren't pulling baseless assertions out of your nether regions I'll address this blatantly dishonest straw man. Better yet, you can look it up yourself and stop making blatantly dishonest arguments that willfully distort my position.

See how that works? You asserted that many local floods could better be understood as a single world-wide flood. I countered that they can definitely not be better understood that way, and a cursory look at the specific details (time, geographical extent, etc) of each one reveals this very clearly. Not to mention the multitudes of geological phenomena that cannot possibly be explained by a single flood (fossils inside conglomerates, sediment containing boulders resting upon fine-grained sediment, sea-floor basalt sandwiched between desert-origin sandstone, repeated evaporite series hundreds of feet thick, etc.). So I'm addressing your argument directly, and as fairly as possible.

You, on the other hand, are demanding evidence of of things that aren't even remotely predicted by the theory of evolution. Airplanes and computers do not reproduce on their own with variation, while living organisms do. We have a theory of evolution for living organisms, not airplanes or computers. Intentionally conflating the two while knowing better is dishonest.

[fccool]

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any years ago I had a choice to make. Pay my tithe or pay a bill!! I decided to pay my tithe. A few days later I got a check in the mail for the exact amount I owed in that bill I chose not to pay. So yes if we are really interested in looking to prove him, there are many ways. Also about a yr and a half ago, when we needed to move back to Mass, because of our grandchildren, which at this time I wont go into the details. We needed about $1900 to get into an apartment or loose our grandchildren into the foster care system, it was provided for us.

First of all, any church or pastor that advocates paying tithes at expense of:

1) Feeding your own children

2) Paying rent

3) Taking care of our basic need of our relatives

.... is a charlatan. If there's a God, there should never be a choice between paying your rent or financing church corporate structure, much of which goes to paying salaries of the officials that don't have to make these choices.

Secondly, which mechanism did God use to write you that check? Did he write it personally? Did he cause other people to write it? How do you get from "I got a check for this amount" to... "It's because I paid tithe". How do you connect two events other than the check being for the same amount? There are plenty of people who don't pay tithe and get unexpected checks. At what point an unexpected income becomes a "God thing"?

[LifeHiscost]

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Many years ago I had a choice to make. Pay my tithe or pay a bill!! I decided to pay my tithe. A few days later I got a check in the mail for the exact amount I owed in that bill I chose not to pay. So yes if we are really interested in looking to prove him, there are many ways. Also about a yr and a half ago, when we needed to move back to Mass, because of our grandchildren, which at this time I wont go into the details. We needed about $1900 to get into an apartment or loose our grandchildren into the foster care system, it was provided for us. Here's one of my favorite verse's in the Bible from Deuteronomy 4:29 However, from there you will seek ADONAI your God; and you will find him if you search after him with all your heart and being.

Beautiful witness to the Creator God Who never comes up short for those willing to trust Him. One of my favorite promises also.

Jesus/God saves!

[phkrause]

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Many years ago I had a choice to make. Pay my tithe or pay a bill!! I decided to pay my tithe. A few days later I got a check in the mail for the exact amount I owed in that bill I chose not to pay. So yes if we are really interested in looking to prove him, there are many ways. Also about a yr and a half ago, when we needed to move back to Mass, because of our grandchildren, which at this time I wont go into the details. We needed about $1900 to get into an apartment or loose our grandchildren into the foster care system, it was provided for us. Here's one of my favorite verse's in the Bible from Deuteronomy 4:29 However, from there you will seek ADONAI your God; and you will find him if you search after him with all your heart and being.

Beautiful witness to the Creator God Who never comes up short for those willing to trust Him. One of my favorite promises also.

Jesus/God saves!

Exactly LHC, but we'd rather continue arguing as to God actually writing a check, as if that were possible. God hears and sees our needs and takes care of us even before we ask. I believe that the verse in Deuteronomy says it all. I'll say it again, the check was the exact amount, not a penny less or more.

[LifeHiscost]

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we'd rather continue arguing as to God actually writing a check, as if that were possible.

Come to think of it, I remember God writing on tablets of stone with His finger and Moses losing his temper when he found those who had so recently been delivered from slavery, partying and playing with their freedom, as if that freedom was capable of bringing the fruit of righteousness without yielding to the Person Who made the freedom possible.

God/Jesus cares!

[Aliensanctuary]

Spirit, I believe, connects us and all living things---without Spirit, life would not exist. Spirit is an elemental, still-undiscovered force that was used in the production of the DNA codes used to create life when this planet was terra-formed and colonized. Spirit, too, was responsible in forming atoms from energy, non-electromagnetic energy.

Our view of the universe consists only in our perception of electromagnetic energy. Non-electromagnetic energy would be invisible to us, but it can interact with electromagnetic energy via Spirit, and therefore, alter electromagnetic matter. Non-electromagnetic energy would go by a different set of rules and constants. Spirit can be used to manipulate sub-atomic particles and atoms and molecules, and so on, up to a much larger scale. Spirit was used in the healings and other "miracles", including resurrection accounts, in the Good Book.

Spirit is also used as a form of communication between very distant parties, and if human-thought communications are intercepted and recorded, this results in an error-free record of human memories. Some might call attempts to communicate with our maker via Spirit, "prayer".

Spirit, then, used some sort of mechanism on a vast scale to convert non-electromagnetic energy into the matter and energy that surrounds us, rather than a big dumb explosion of elemental electromagnetic energy which came from nothing. Matter was designed, engineered, and assembled by beings light-years beyond our most profound thinkers.

Without Spirit, atoms and therefore, DNA molecules would not exist. Beings who can control Spirit would possess much power, especially when compared with our despicable little race. They likely would have the ability to travel immense distances, and colonize suitable little worlds for who-knows-what purposes.

[Igakusei]

Our view of the universe consists only in our perception of electromagnetic energy. Non-electromagnetic energy would be invisible to us, but it can interact with electromagnetic energy via Spirit, and therefore, alter electromagnetic matter. Non-electromagnetic energy would go by a different set of rules and constants. Spirit can be used to manipulate sub-atomic particles and atoms and molecules, and so on, up to a much larger scale. Spirit was used in the healings and other "miracles", including resurrection accounts, in the Good Book.

Hey, this sounds like something we might be able to test, and therefore wouldn't be invisible to us.

And don't forget the other three fundamental forces we know of, while you're at it.

[Gerr]

You started both of these conversations, but you started the flood one first.

Fact: Bonnie started the conversation/thread. You immediately tried to rebut with the first response. You already had THREE posts (#2,4,6) by the time I joined the conversation with post #8. Unless I miscounted, you had a total of 15 to my 13.

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

Maybe after you provide some evidence that you weren't pulling baseless assertions out of your nether regions I'll address this blatantly dishonest straw man. Better yet, you can look it up yourself and stop making blatantly dishonest arguments that willfully distort my position.

Et tu, Igakusei? Dishonest? I provided you with some evidence which, with click of a key you labeled as "nonsense"?

Willfully distorted your position? Really?

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I am as equally amazed how supposedly very intelligent people would never believe a computer & its OS, or a 747 could come into existence without a creator, and yet fervently believe that something even more complex like a "simple" cell, or a human brain could come about without a Creator.

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

Complexity arises from natural, and especially evolutionary processes all the time. Computer programmers use it every day to develop powerful and efficient solutions to problems that they then have difficulty understanding due to their often incredibly complex and obfuscatory nature (and before anyone says it, the only kind of "design" in nature that the existence of the computer programmer here could possibly support would be theistic evolution, where a designer sets up the environment in order to evolve the sorts of life-forms that it wants).

So a 747 or a Pentium chip "arises from natural, and especially evolutionary processes? So I asked you for the evidence, not for a 747 or a Cray, just an early Wright brothers' model and abacus will do. Even just a mouse trap will do.

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See how that works? You asserted that many local floods could better be understood as a single world-wide flood. I countered that they can definitely not be better understood that way, and a cursory look at the specific details (time, geographical extent, etc) of each one reveals this very clearly. Not to mention the multitudes of geological phenomena that cannot possibly be explained by a single flood (fossils inside conglomerates, sediment containing boulders resting upon fine-grained sediment, sea-floor basalt sandwiched between desert-origin sandstone, repeated evaporite series hundreds of feet thick, etc.). So I'm addressing your argument directly, and as fairly as possible.

Whale fossils on Andes? Couldn't swim fast enough to get out during a sudden tectonic movement? Already dead when the subduction occurred? Have you seen any whale carcass in any of the sea floor explorations? If there are marine fossils on top of mountains of the world including the Rockies, what does that tell you? They were all under water at one time! And that includes the North American plains!

Polystrate tree fossils are not only found in North America. Mt St. Helens showed how a catastrophic flood uprooted trees, stripped them of roots and branches and deposited them upright in mud.

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You, on the other hand, are demanding evidence of of things that aren't even remotely predicted by the theory of evolution. Airplanes and computers do not reproduce on their own with variation, while living organisms do. We have a theory of evolution for living organisms, not airplanes or computers. Intentionally conflating the two while knowing better is dishonest.

If planes & computers do not appear on their own, are you saying you believe the inanimate things we see were created by a Creator/Master Designer? If so, then I plead guilty for mis-representing your position. But if not, then tell me how inanimate nature came to be, and how something not alive could give rise to something even more complex that is alive?

Of all people, someone like you who knows so much about the wonderful organs of the body should be singing the praises of the wisdom of a Creator. Show one body organ that's not the product of design! A human being is the product of two disparate cells. Neither can exist very long without the other. Both male and female HAD to appear simultaneously. So which came first, the chicken or the egg?

[Gerr]

We don't believe that OS and 747s assemble on their own, because we KNOW that they don't. We have living examples of programmers, and engineers that built those things. We actually see these, unlike your example of "hidden mastermind" that we don't see.

So, planes and computers have designers but the universe doesn't? You know your Bible, what happened when the "hidden Mastermind" revealed Himself? When one angel was seen in his glory?

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1) When you compare design, you actually distinguish it from non-design (in nature). For example we know that OS is designed, because rocks and sand are not designed.

2) In your case, everything is designed. So, how is it that you don't look at a grain of sand as an example, and instead give us OS and 747s?

I don't believe I ever claimed everything is designed. If I throw 10 coins in the air, how they land is probably a random process.

Are you saying sand is produced randomly? Sand, as I understand it, is the product of a chemical reaction.

3) In your case, how do you distinguish between a grain of sand, which is designed, and a human being, which is also designed? Why should complexity even be an issue here, when you claim that everything was designed?

4) If you claim everything was designed, then how do you determine that a grain of sand was designed? What do you point to in that case?

5) If you claim that complex entities must have designer... who designed God, which is the most complex entity there is?

So, you see... you can't even live up to your own logical expectations.

Huh?

[phkrause]

Exactly Gerry