gods vs. idols

[JoeMo]

In order to sound like I had half a brain in order to respond to a different topic, I looked up the verses in the Bible containing the word "gods" and the word "idol" There were 215 references to the word "gods"; and 119 references to the word "idol". While there were some arguable exceptions, verses about "idols" spoke of the idiocy of worshipping man-made things. Many verses talked about graven images of other gods.

On the other hand, (again with some arguable exceptions), most of the verses on "gods" spoke like these "gods" were real beings; simply inferior to the God of the heavens (Ex. 15:11, 18:11, Ps. 95:3, 96:4). He also warned of the grave dangers of following other gods. (Almost all of Exodus and Deuteronomy).

Anyways, I am persuaded that, while idols were nothing but man-made graven images of the "lesser gods", the lesser gods themselves were/are indeed sentient beings - probably from the spiritual realm - and have walked (maybe still walk) the earth. As a friend of mine told me - much mythology has a basis in truth and reality. satan himself is presented is scripture the "prince of the power of the air" (Ephesians 2:2), which in my mind could be interpreted as "god of the air".

If any of my non-Christian friends see this, I mean no offense by my term "lesser gods". It was simply the best term I could think of, given my personal spiritual frame of reference.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

If any of my non-Christian friends see this, I mean no offense by my term "lesser gods". It was simply the best term I could think of, given my personal spiritual frame of reference.

Considering the fact that the Creator

does not even give room for other "gods" to share space with Him, it can be difficult be politically correct or to maintain some friendships and still be loyal to the Word.

"You shall have no other gods before or besides Me."Exodus 20:3 AMP

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Joshua-]

Heya =)

My personal take on that is basically this:

God is the only true God that has ever existed or will ever exist. However, whatever a person gives their homage to has become their god.

Having lived in and according to the things of 'the world' (this is not meant pejoratively), I know that I served many many gods- though I didn't build them physical shrines or literally bow down to them.

A few verses come to mind where God seems to explicitly state that He is the only God that has ever truly existed (Isaiah 43:10 44:6-8 45:5-6, Deuteronomy 4:35-39, 2 Samuel 7:22).

We do see some dialogue from Paul about how other things can become peoples gods (1 Corinthians 8:1-6, Philippians 3:19), but he doesn't seem to suggest that these things are actually gods that exist in any real sense, but rather, they are only taking the place of the only true God in the lives of those who give their homage to them.

[JoeMo]

I'm not saying that the God of heaven may not be the King of kings and Lord of lords. I'm saying that the other gods mentioned in the Bible might be real beings; not just simply figments of peoples' imagination. But the God of heaven is "Chief God", if you are a fan of the Bible.

[M. T. Cross]

I feel as though I should respond.... LOL

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

" I'm saying that the other gods mentioned in the Bible might be real beings; not just simply figments of peoples' imagination. But the God of heaven is "Chief God", if you are a fan of the Bible."

I am a fan of the Word. This below is the only one I can remember the Word speaking of as the god of this world and leads me to believe if there are other gods, not only of the imagination, they are the fallen angels (now demons) who harass but are directly subject to the "god" of this world.

"If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing. Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

You see, we don’t go around preaching about ourselves. We preach that Jesus Christ is Lord, and we ourselves are your servants for Jesus’ sake."2 Corinthians 4:3-5 NLT

"First I predicted your rescue, then I saved you and proclaimed it to the world. No foreign god has ever done this. You are witnesses that I am the only God,” says the Lord."Isaiah 43:12 NLT

God/Jesus loves!

[M. T. Cross]

Gods vs. Idols......

An idol is a representation of a God. Something to help you focus on that God because people tend to need a focus point or they wander mentally. I have a lot of those types of things around in the form of feathers, antlers, plants, shells, rocks and an old British Navy barometer. Do I pray to or worship these things? Of course not, that would be silly but I may visually focus on or hold one of these things when I am praying to the deity it represents for me.

I see a Christian one every day in the form of the Cross. I watch people use the Bible as an idol as well. I think I have witnessed the worship of the cross more than I have seen any pagan idol worship really.....

We all have idols, just some live in denial of that fact.

But what the op is really talking about is the Christian God vs. Pagan Gods.

So lets look at what makes a God valid as a God.

Is it a book? Is it personal interaction or personal experiences?

Christians have a book, it is a compilation of historical lore of the Hebrew people intermingled with poetry and praise for the God they worshipped, then it is combined with the story and teachings of a figure that claimed to be the son of that God and the subsequent thoughts of his followers. It was compiled by men who had all sorts of writings to choose from and after much debate and fighting settled on what is now the Bible. They - the men- told us this was THE WORD of THE ONE and ONLY true God.

Other cultures have much lore about the history of their people and the Gods they worshipped and honoured as well. Some cultures wrote it down, some passed it down in the form of oral tradition. Much of this lore has been lost due to writings being destroyed and the priest caste of various cultures being slaughtered to put an end to their "heresy".

The main difference is this. The only ones that had the Roman wealth to pay zealot soldiers to go out and slaughter and destroy the evidence of other Gods was the somewhat early Christian church. I think they were the only ones obsessed with "converting" people as well. So the spread of Christianity and the rise of it as the dominant religion has its roots in political manueverings, really nothing spiritual.

So how do we decide on a spiritual level what Gods are valid or not.

That comes down to personal experience and interaction.

I could list some of these things, but the last time I did that here, even in the most vague way, several people set out to make me out to be delusional and mentally ill so I won't do that again.

But they have happened. I have a friend that owes his sobriety to the strength Odin gave him, another that owes the fact that she still lives to Morrigan, another who was saved from himself by Jesus, another that finds her strength to get through her day to day life in Brighid........ the list goes on and on.

A God is as relevant as the persons experience with them. Its not based on numbers of followers, political clout or books. Its based on how we learn from them to be better than we are, how through them we grow.

As to the chief God....... every pantheon has one and I think that's where it ends. I don't think that there is one All Mighty God and the rest are lesser. I think there is an energy in the cosmos that all things are a part of, or it is a part of all things, it connects everything, so I guess the sum of all the parts would be greater than the parts themselves.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

So how do we decide on a spiritual level what Gods are valid or not. That comes down to personal experience and interaction.

Very well said, MT. You have had several interactions with the deities that you acknowledge; while you may not have had those same experiences with the Judeo-Christian deity. Hence you go with your experience. It's the same with me. I have had intimate experiences with YHVH and His Son; but I have very limited experiences with other deities.

When we have supernatural experiences we have 2 options:

1. Believe the experience and integrate it with our spiritual world view.

2. Reject it as a dream or hallucination cooked up by something you ate.

Sometimes Option 2 is the easiest, cuz people will think you're a little imbalanced if you choose Option 1. I already know I'm about half a bubble off of plumb; so if people think I'm a little odd, they are agrreing with my assessment of myself.

[M. T. Cross]

Absolutely Joe. Personally, and I know a lot of people under my spiritual umbrella that share this opinion, is that your God is as real as ours, moves in your lives and does great things for those he/they choose to do great things for.

I kinda the mentality of "your Gods are your Gods, my Gods are my Gods - whats for supper?"

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I know a lot of people under my spiritual umbrella that share this opinion

And that's where the rub comes in. The King of kings, the Creator, doesn't base His dominion on shared rule. And when sin is overruled, even among those who profess to know God, according to the Word there will be no gods at all in remembrance throughout the dominion of the One true God, Who is the Truth.

"Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."John 14:6 NLT

" And you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free."John 8:32 AMP

God/Jesus saves!

[JoeMo]

Quote:

The King of kings, the Creator, doesn't base His dominion on shared rule.

What you say is true and pertains to the Judeo-Christian God if you happen to believe the Bible is true. If you don't believe the bible is true and accept some otther "religion's" authority, then you might be convinced that what you say is true of their god; not the Judeo-Christian God. I pretty much try to respect everyone's personal beliefs. Naturally, I give extra priority to my own set of beliefs, since I am never wrong; and exist as a legend in my own mind.

[phkrause]

Quote:

The King of kings, the Creator, doesn't base His dominion on shared rule.

What you say is true and pertains to the Judeo-Christian God if you happen to believe the Bible is true. If you don't believe the bible is true and accept some otther "religion's" authority, then you might be convinced that what you say is true of their god; not the Judeo-Christian God. I pretty much try to respect everyone's personal beliefs. Naturally, I give extra priority to my own set of beliefs, since I am never wrong; and exist as a legend in my own mind.

See JoeMo, I don't see it that way. The God we read about in the Bible is not the Judeo-Christian God, he is the God of our universe, and not just this little corner of the universe. He's the God of Jews, Christians, Muslims, atheists, etc. The reason Christians are called Christians is because of Jesus Christ. When God first created this world, there was no such thing called "religion!" We put that into play.

[JoeMo]

Good points pk. From my point of reference (Christianity), I agree with you completely - that the God I choose to worship is the God of all people and things; and that Jesus is my God and Savior. But that does not negate the fact that there may be other deities; and about half of the world worships those other deities because they have either not heard the gospel, or heard it and chose to keep their own religion (There are also those whose Christian faith was destroyed by the persecution they received when they did not adhere to the rules of their particular denomination - but that's a topic for another thread). If I had grown up Hindu or animist, I would be very hesitant to change my spiritual worldview on an "infomercial" by some outsider.

[phkrause]

I know that I didn't mention it, but yes I agree there are other deities/gods. We read about them in the Bible even.

[debbym]

The Children of Israel had serious problems in their relationship with God when they made a god of the "Ark".

Instead of recognizing that the power of God came from His presence, His very person, they used the ark as a "talisman" to have power in battle and it sorely failed them.

The Philistines also thought by having the ark they wielded the power of the God of Israel and it caused sore problems. pun intended.

It was a big step to learn in their faith relationship with God, that God was the one to be worshiped and not a Holy Object. God wanted to bless them by imparting His Character to their hearts and minds, this was something they struggled to comprehend and allow to be experienced int their lives.

Sacredness was was placed to bring about this change not to bring about object worship. God made time sacred, so He could build this relationship. There is danger in worshiping religion itself, or the scriptures themselves, or life itself. God was Love and to make an object of love was to destroy it's range of existence and power in the hearts of those who limited God.

Jesus taught believers to love not their lives unto death. If you lost your life for His sake you would find it, and this was not only referring to physically perishing.

[Gail]

I have no doubt that there are powers out there, for sure, no matter what their names are! The Bible speaks of that as more of a reality than we mortals give it credit for.

Ephesians 6:12, KJV- For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The level of deity or power you want to ascribe to each I will leave up to you. But I think that we humans struggle more with the unseen than the Bible does.

[Gail]

I agree with what MT said about idols being representations of deities. I don't know that anyone has ever believed that a talisman or other representation was the actual god. In Scripture, though, there are links made to the idols. God addresses people who worship idols that are made of wood or stone, that cannot speak, see, nor hear. Yet I still have a nagging doubt that the adherents thought that the wood or stone themselves answered their prayers.

So... What is the key to understanding the Biblical link between the two?

[JoeMo]

Quote:

The Children of Israel had serious problems in their relationship with God when they made a god of the "Ark". Instead of recognizing that the power of God came from His presence, His very person, they used the ark as a "talisman" to have power in battle and it sorely failed them.

That is the point. When we put a deity in a box of wood, stone, or precious metal, it is easy for some to attribute the power of the deity to the object representing the deity. The statue of the Philistine god Dagon had no power. The being it represented had power over a whole nation of people.

The Ark had no inherent power. It was the deity who directed the building of the Ark who has the power. The temple had no power. It was the deity who designed it that had the power. The cross has no power. The deity who died on it has the power.

[M. T. Cross]

I see just about everyone on here is a new Knitter.

What does that mean? It not a term I have ever heard before.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: Gerhard

I see just about everyone on here is a new Knitter.

What does that mean? It not a term I have ever heard before.

I think it has something to do with "NASA nasal sounds" (in Post #694606).