Choose ye this day ---

[BobRyan]

Here is what I believe to be an instructive contrast between two pastors.

You really need to watch this video for at least the first 10 minutes to get the point of this thread

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMiO2iOcLp8

Next we have the SDA pastor of the Auburn SDA church - whose leadership, insight and ideas can be seen to some extent in this short 5 minute clip of an event he promoted at his church after he himself had been the guest speaker at a local catholic church, in the ecumenical spirit of his area.

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-gIIay2IOc

[Gregory Matthews]

For additional information, please see:

http://www.atoday.org/article/2470/news/...e-pope-s-agenda

[CoAspen]

The sling and arrows will never cease, tis the nature of the throwers!

[BobRyan]

While Pastor Appel may have gotten some personal emails -- the links I provided were not "rabid" (to use his words). The first link is that of Elder Ted Wilson and the talk he is giving is before the video that was made of the Auburn church - so no need to be so sensitive about it.

And the second video is just of the Auburn church - nobody else is talking - so unless you really don't like that Auburn church - still nothing to get squeemish about - unless you have something to hide.

The AToday article is a bit wrong-headed and as usual - unbalanced. The message that Elder Wilson gave - even before that video of Auburn - now speaks volumes as it is the very point that he makes for the church that is being buried by all the fluff being poured into the problem by AToday.

The classic logical fallacy of "be a liberal or be mean spirited" is not at the reality we have to deal with in real life.

Ellen White speaks of the much predicted ecumenism of the future as "joining on such points of doctrine as they hold in common". So that means no Catholic Priest coming to an SDA church and promoting purgatory or praying to the dead and no SDA pastor going to a Catholic church and discussing the mark of the beast or the antichrist.

And of course the pastors involved in this pastor-swap preaching circuit were keeping to that foundational rule for ecumenism - just as was predicted.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

AToday said

Quote:

Appel never expected his persecutors to be fellow Adventists.

“People all the way up to the GC have been pressuring to have me fired,” Appel said. “Some have sent threatening letters to the GC, union conference and conference … just rabid attacks.”

...

He also refuses to say anything bad about his critics. “Their hearts are in the right place. They are sincere,” he state

interesting text.

in Christ,

Bob

[CoAspen]

Yes, bears repeating......The sling and arrows will never cease, tis the nature of the throwers!

[Tom Wetmore]

While Pastor Appel may have gotten some personal emails -- the links I provided were not "rabid" (to use his words). The first link is that of Elder Ted Wilson and the talk he is giving is before the video that was made of the Auburn church - so no need to be so sensitive about it.

And the second video is just of the Auburn church - nobody else is talking - so unless you really don't like that Auburn church - still nothing to get squeemish about - unless you have something to hide.

The AToday article is a bit wrong-headed and as usual - unbalanced. The message that Elder Wilson gave - even before that video of Auburn - now speaks volumes as it is the very point that he makes for the church that is being buried by all the fluff being poured into the problem by AToday.

The classic logical fallacy of "be a liberal or be mean spirited" is not at the reality we have to deal with in real life.

Ellen White speaks of the much predicted ecumenism of the future as "joining on such points of doctrine as they hold in common". So that means no Catholic Priest coming to an SDA church and promoting purgatory or praying to the dead and no SDA pastor going to a Catholic church and discussing the mark of the beast or the antichrist.

And of course the pastors involved in this pastor-swap preaching circuit were keeping to that foundational rule for ecumenism - just as was predicted.

in Christ,

Bob

Speaking of being a bit wrong-headed and unbalanced...

A 5 minute edited clip with written commentary superposed over the video. How long was the whole service? Almost an hour and a half. Edited out is much of the explanation of the context that AToday reported.

Bob, did you watch the whole thing or at least a majority of it as you suggested be done for the unedited video of Ted?

And then there is your blatant misrepresentation of what EGW has to say on the matter. She never even uses the word 'ecumenical" or "ecumenism", although the latter does appear as a title to one of her manuscripts, even though there isn't anything in that manuscript about ecumenism. That which you put in quotes, leaving the impression that it was a direct quote of EGW, does not appear anywhere in her published writings. But even worse what you represent as her counsel is the exact opposite of what she actually says. She explicitly says that we should not introduce our distinctive beliefs first, but rather that the "truths that we hold in common should be dwelt upon first, and the confidence of the hearers obtained." And her counsel was in the very context of meeting with those of other churches. She also counsels that our ministers should meeting with and fellowship with the pastors of other denominations.

[Gregory Matthews]

Bob Ryan said:

Quote:

So that means no Catholic Priest coming to an SDA church and promoting purgatory or praying to the dead. . .

Do you believe that the above happened?

Do you have any documentation that it happened?

If the answer to the above it a "no," I question the integrity of your statement.

The only situations under which a Roman Catholic priest, in the U.S., would come into a SDA congregational service and promote that above would be a situation in which a person sitting in the congregation, asked the priest to explain that teaching.

No, you did not say that the priest did that. But, unless you believe that the priest did do that, there was no reason to make the above statement.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

. . . "joining on such points of doctrine as they hold in common". . . .

I will second what Tom said: I have searched the published writings of Ellen White. According to the search engine, the phrase that you placed in quotes, above, does not appear in any of her writings.

By placing quotation marks around that above phrase, a reasonable person would believe that you are saying that EGW used the above phrase. That can not be documented. It casts doubt over your entire post.

[Gregory Matthews]

Tom said:

Quote:

. . . She never even uses the word 'ecumenical" or "ecumenism", . . .

Again, I have done a search of Ellen White's published writings. She never uses either the word "ecumenical" or the word "ecumenism."

However, she does use the word "or" more than 38,000 times. But, Tom should not be understood to say that she did not use the word "or."

:)

[Naomi]

The sling and arrows will never cease, tis the nature of the throwers!

So true!! .... and, whose nature does that reflect????

[Gregory Matthews]

The video of the SDA Service, contains at the end an alleged quote for the 1988 edition of The Great Controversy. I cannot copy it, so I will not attempt to reproduce it. However, the alleged quotation consists of 44 words.

Those 44 words are individually selected from a much larger paragraph that is contained in the actual book.

Here is what is actually contained in the book, as published.

Quote:

Says Howard Crosby: “The church of God is today courting the world. Its members are trying to bring it

387

down to the level of the ungodly. The ball, the theater, nude and lewd art, social luxuries with all their loose moralities, are making inroads into the sacred inclosure of the church; and as a satisfaction for all this worldliness, Christians are making a great deal of Lent and Easter and church ornamentation. It is the old trick of Satan. The Jewish church struck on that rock; the Romish church was wrecked on the same; and the Protestant is fast reaching the same doom.” {GC88 386.3}

Note the differences between what was said in the video clip and was actually said in the published EGW Book. Note also that in the book, it is not Ellen White who was speaking, rather EGW cited a man whom she named as Howard Crosby.

In the video selection, the44 words are individually put together without any indication that material has been removed. This in not considered appropriate.

In addition, the video replaces the actual words, "Church of God," with the word "Christian."

This is inappropriate. Perhaps one might think that the phrase "Church of God" is equal to the word "Christian." That is not important. In order to get the sense of what an author actually said, one must accurately quote the author.

As recorded in the video, a reasonable person might believe that they were written by Ellen White. They were not. They were written by Howard Crosby. He should have been given the credit. He was not. People could be deceived by that.

The bottom line is: The actual statement in the GC has a different focus (ball, theatre, nude & lewd art) than did the video--Easter and Lent.

If this is symptomatic of the overall video, then one must consider the overall video to be lacking.

[CoAspen]

People may disagree with the .org, and that is okay, but when misquoting, innuendo and misrepresentation take place we can really only think of one person whose method follows that pattern. Reading in Genesis we find the name, the originator of such a methodology. Such tactics honor that individual and not God.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

. . . "joining on such points of doctrine as they hold in common". . . .

I will second what Tom said: I have searched the published writings of Ellen White. According to the search engine, the phrase that you placed in quotes, above, does not appear in any of her writings.

By placing quotation marks around that above phrase, a reasonable person would believe that you are saying that EGW used the above phrase. That can not be documented. It casts doubt over your entire post.

It appears that the quote (actually a paraphrase) comes from "EllenWhite.Info":

"When the leading churches of the United States, uniting upon such points of doctrine as are held by them in common, shall influence the state to enforce their decrees and to sustain their institutions, then Protestant America will have formed an image of the Roman hierarchy, and the infliction of civil penalties upon dissenters will inevitably result."

SOURCE

EllenWhite.Info is under the umbrella of AdventWeb Ministry, of which there are a number of primary members. Bob Pickle appears to be the person in charge of EllenWhite.Info. See HERE

[JoeMo]

I would rather go to the Auburn Church than ascribe to Ted Wilson's philosophy. Ted makes it sound like one is either an SDA or is doomed to perish at the end of the age. He talks about what is wrong with the church rather than what is right with it. He presented a quote by EGW talking about separating the people of God from the churches. There are people in other "churches" besides Adventism that are people of God.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

It appears that the quote (actually a paraphrase) comes from "EllenWhite.Info":

No.

The citation is in the 1988 edition of THE GREAT CONTROVERSY and it is on the page cited. One can access it either on-line or in the EGW CD.

However, the actual citation has been modified and changed in a manner that is not appropriate.

It is as I stated that it was.

[Tom Wetmore]

Even looking at the context of the actual quote, I am not so sure that what EGW is talking about is the spin put to it here. That chapter of the Great Contoversy is mostly speaking of the apostate church joining forces with the civil powers to enforce its agenda. The suggested path of apostate Protestantism uniting together is also with the added element of joining up with the civil powers to further and enforce their agenda, Sunday laws for example. Today we might see it as other religious issues being pushed in the political arena.

That seems quite different from what EGW says elsewhere regarding the value of our ministers getting together in fellowship and prayer with clergy of other faiths and the importance of meeting anyone of other faiths on that common ground first, saving for later the teaching of our distinctive beliefs. The finding of common ground as outreach seems more like what was happening in the Auburn Church.

As far as the worry over having clergy from others speak in our church and our ministers reciprocating, it should also be emphasized that this was not a sabbath service. It was a Wednesday evening meeting. But even so, I couldn't forget that EGW herself often preached in Sunday keeping churches, even on Sunday during their regular worship services. I suppose to this independent ministry she was out of line...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I'm totally confused. I read what I thought people wrote. Then I read that's not what they wrote, but when I look back to see what they wrote, it's what I thought they wrote in the first place. But then they write that what they wrote was right, but not what I read, which was also right.

[Tom Wetmore]

Well now I'm confused!

[LifeHiscost]

When the leading churches of the United States, uniting upon such points of doctrine as are held by them in common, shall influence the state to enforce their decrees and to sustain their institutions, then Protestant America will have formed an image of the Roman hierarchy, and the infliction of civil penalties EGW 1911 GC 445.1

When the leading churches of the United States, uniting upon such points of doctrine as are held by them in common, shall influence the state to enforce their decrees and to sustain their institutions, then Protestant America will have formed an image of the Roman hierarchy, and the infliction of civil penalties upon dissenters will inevitably result....{LDE 131.1}

The enforcement of Sundaykeeping on the part of Protestant churches is an enforcement of the worship of the papacy....{LDE 131.2}

Quotes from Official Ellen White website, for what it's worth.

God cares! Jesus saves!

[JoeMo]

I know you think you know what you thought I said; but what you thought I said isn't what I think I said, I think...

[BobRyan]

"When the leading churches of the United States, uniting upon such points of doctrine as are held by them in common, shall influence the state to enforce their decrees and to sustain their institutions, then Protestant America will have formed an image of the Roman hierarchy, and the infliction of civil penalties upon dissenters will inevitably result."

SOURCE