Halloween, Hallow's Eve or Harvest Festival

[Guest]

Hi. I know this is kindof late but I had a question:

Is there anything wrong with christians getting together on Halloween to celebrate a "Harvest Festival" esp. when they have games, Jack-o-lantern carving, halloween candy, and everyone dresses up in costumes?

And all of this takes place in a church?

Is this just another way christians substitute a pagan holy day for a christian holiday. Kind of reminds me ofancient Babylon, the feast of the Son of Isis (Goddess of Nature) was celebrated on December 25. Raucous partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving were traditions of this feast. In 350, Pope Julius I declared that Christ’s birth would be celebrated on December 25. There is little doubt that he was trying to make it as painless as possible for pagan Romans (who remained a majority at that time) to convert to Christianity. The new religion went down a bit easier, knowing that their feasts would not be taken away from them.

Just a thought.

[Amelia]

Personally I would like to see our church NOT have any kind of celebration substitute for halloween. The church should be teaching our children why we shouldnt celebrate that day along with not hunting for easter eggs and that santa clause isnt a real person that can see all and be everywhere. We shouldnt have pagan substitutions. Thats just worshiping an idol from the back instead of the front.

[Dr. Shane]

I think this ties into our other thread about why teenagers leave the church. If we don't substitute something for Holloween, what will our youth be doing? Most likely, they will be celebrating it with the world as the world.

October 31 is also the day that Martin Luther broke the ties from the Catholic church so some churches celebrate it as Reformation Day. I like the idea of pumpkin carving. The kids can draw cards with the name of the seven dwarfs and try to carve a pumpkin with such an expression. Costumes are great although I would discourage witches, skeletons, whizards, zombies, etc. Superheros, animals, pricesses and farytales make for good costumes. Instead of giving out prepackaged candy, the kids could make candy at the party. Carmeled and candy apples, chocolate-covered frozen bananas, almondbark-covered pretzels, popcornballs, etc.

[]http://www.clubadventist.com/ubbtreads/attachments/194047-pumpkin_01_sm.gif[/]

[Amelia]

Its all in how you are brought up. And you have to start right from the start or at least when they are still young enough not to remember it later.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I see nothing wrong with a *Harvest Festival* .... back in the '60's my church would designate a Saturday night in the late autumn to hold an auction of foods, handmade items, and misc stuff to raise money for Ingathering. It was great fun for everyone - even us kids, and had nothing whatsoever to do with Halloween - other than the time of year.

I'm not in favor of celebrating Halloween. The day itself is not evil....but the implications of Halloween - *Samhain* to me - are dangerous. It isn't a fairy tale or joke to play around with.

[Stan]

PAM!!! Was wondering how you were doing, you have been missed.

Stan

[Gail]

Each year I mourn the waste of millions of perfectly good pumpkins...

[Neil D]

When it comes to Halloween, I do have conflicting thoughts....

My background causes me to think along Pam's lines...Implications of Halloween with the 3 traditions of the catholic church and the pegan rites AND glorifying/worshiping Lucifer.

There is nothing wrong with a harvest party. Besides that, It's a good substitution for the tradition of scaring everyone out of junk food.

And yet, I do see a fun aspect to Halloween with the costumes...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I've been *lurking* in the background mysts of the forum.

Actually, the past couple weeks have been a bit...uhmmm...*trying* for me, what with Samhain and all - and me still being a new Christian.

[Amelia]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

I'm not in favor of celebrating Halloween. The day itself is not evil....but the implications of Halloween - *Samhain* to me - are dangerous. It isn't a fairy tale or joke to play around with

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Im glad you came out of the myst for a while. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" /> But you are right. The day itself isnt the problem. And a harvest festival isnt really a problem either; as long as its not held on or near halloween nor treated exactly like halloween cloaked in semantics.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rabbi Cohen,

Welcome again to Club Adventist.

From reading your post I gather that you are not too thrilled with this taking place in church or taking place at all. I have to tell you that I personally don't care for these types of worldly gatherings. If we will be honest, most of the time these celebrations have nothing to do with our Lord.

Some may say that they are harmless and that we should not be so legalistic or that we have to have something for the kids to do. Overcome evil with good might be presented as a reason for these celebrations or when in Rome do as the Romans.

Here are my thoughts: If poeple want to get together; do so and do it in the name of and to the honor of the Lord. Candy, chips, soda pop, and other junk food is not the best thing that can be served to honor the Lord. A question comes to my mind, if we are supposed to be the head as God's people, then why do we need to "Do something" on the same day as the world and give the impression that we are not that strange, "Please accept us."

What about avoiding the appearance of evil and not having anything to do with the world? What about being a peculiar people unto the Lord? Who needs these celebrations? Is it that critical that we can't just do away with it and not have anything to do with that day but possibly prayer meetings and/or to stay home and hand out tracts if possible? We know what Halloween and it's origins are about.

I enjoy having a good time with people and like to laugh but I truly think that we should leave the world alone and take the spiritual counsel give in the book of Deuteronomy, which basically says among other things, when you go into the land that the Lord will give you have nothing to do with their practices but destroy all their idols and everything associated with them and their worship. Worship the Lord you God.

I guess that's too old fashioned for some and they'd rather be with the times. Placating and assimulating in order to try to fit in or convert others, none of which works, (been there done that too) hence the command of God to shun worldly practices and live godly practices. We are His witnesses, when are we going to be willing to spend and be spent in truly reaching the lost instead of making up reasons to celebrate Halloween under a different name?

Sounds pretty radical huh? God made a radical decision in giving up His Son and Jesus made a radical choice in coming here to suffer abuse and shame for love and mercy. Let's choose other selfless celebrations that will honor our Lord and give a clear and distinct message that we are the children of God in Christ.

There you have it, my 2 cents again.

Norman

BTW None of these comments are directed at anyone here, I am generalizing

[Ron Lambert]

SDA churches tend to have an unusally large number of new converts compared to other Christian churches, and we have to be especially sensitive to the feelings of children of new church members, who probably were raised observing the popular holidays, and were used to looking forward to Halloween as one of the high points of their year. It simply seems prudent to provide them with a more acceptable alternative by giving them a harvest festival type party, and not just leave them feeling deprived because they can't go trick-or-treating dressed up in costume any more.

Ellen G. White, whom many of us look to for guidance in many things, was an ardent advocate of reform in all things, including lifestyle. But she was not as extreme as some people might think. Consider this wonderfully balanced and considerate and pragmatic statement she made:

"In reforms we would better come one step short of the mark than to go one step beyond it. And if there is error at all, let it be on the side next to the people." (Testimonies for the Church, Vol 3, p. 20)

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Ron,

I have to tell you about something that happened to me on Labor day and the day before. I got real sick with Urinary Tract infection, how I don't know. But I do know that while I was laying in my bed weak, shivering and in pain the thought hit me like a ton a reality bricks, I don't care about anything in this world. It made me realized that I only truly desire and crave for the Lord. So this a the context that I speak from. I see the world slowly crashing in upon us and see that it's time for us to awaken to the realities that are around us and will come upon us.

I have no problem with a fall festival, but why have it on the same day as Halloween? Have a prayer meeting and praise God teach the Gospel. That's what we're called to do.

Quote:

---

In reforms we would better come one step short of the mark than to go one step beyond it. And if there is error at all, let it be on the side next to the people.

---

Ron I looked this up and the context of this is health reform. Among other things she said "It is a slow work to obtain a reform in diet." That would better represent the message she was giving.

To take what you quoted and apply it to Halloween is not the best approach to uphold your position. I doubt very much she would say this about such a "holiday". It is a whole lot harder for us to change our diet than it is to refrain from gathering on a day with such dark overtones.

"The Jack-o-lantern is the festival light for Halloween and is the ancient symbol of a damned soul. Originally the Irish would carve out turnips or beets as lanterns as representations of the souls of the dead or goblins freed from the dead." see http://www.jeremiahproject.com/culture/halloween.html

"The Romans adopted the Celtic practices as their own. But in the first century AD, Samhain was assimilated into celebrations of some of the other Roman traditions that took place in October, such as their day to honor Pomona, the Roman goddess of fruit and trees. The symbol of Pomona is the apple, which might explain the origin of our modern tradition of bobbing for apples on Halloween." see

http://wilstar.com/holidays/hallown.htm

(I don't endorse these sites nor am I affiliated with them, I just found this info there)

I am a salesman and I know that with a little persuasion people will let this go with pleasure when they find out about it's origins. Kids adapt to changes better than adults do and so they won't miss too badly. We need to be preaching the Gospel and when it is preached with the power of the Holy Spirit there's nothing that will be held to in this world unless they have no desire for the Gospel at which point nothing you do can help them. We are living in a self pitying culture and only the love of God as it is in Jesus can break through this. We have got to stop compromising and worrying about people's feeling when it comes to preaching the Gospel. We are told that it will be an offense so why try to water it down so that it looses it effect? I'm not advocating shoving a funnel in people's mouths and dumping in a bucket of Gospel when they're not looking. I am begging us to consider our calling and the message of love that God sent in His Son and that we make some attempt at responding to Him other than our human ideas.

Think of the message to the Laodiceans (us) Rev 3: 14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot."

Jesus knows our works; that which we do to try and fulfil our calling. We are doing them, but they are done without the Spirit, just our own selfish works, ideas and programs. We must choose to let the Holy Spirit guide us and preach the Gospel through us if we want to be used by God.

To summerize: I believe we as God's people should be looking to God and preaching the Gospel in the power of the Spirit. There's really no time to be playing church. Stop making excuses and stop compromising with the world.(Not talking to you Ron, but to all) It's just too dangerous at this time in earth's history. In a very short time conditions will change and it would be to our advantage to be ready. God is wooing us to take His love seriously so we can be transformed and be true ambassadors.

Norman

[Paul Beach]

Margaret Gray responds:

First of all, people have a history in their lives - things that they remember from their childhood or early practices that make them feel more comfortable.

Oftentimes, the tendency is to substitute apples for oranges, or simply revert to the old way that they've always done things.

There is much positive family, etc. activity that takes place on this day - such as fun gathering candy, carving pumpkins, etc.

It's kind of like when Paul said there were some things he wouldn't do because it would be a stumbling block to people, like eating food that had been offered to idols even though it wasn't bad food. Most people joining the church don't come from a witchcraft background, and so it would not be a big deal for them. But if somebody came from a background of Voodoo, then there could be some problems.

It depends on where the folks is at. So while Mrs. Gray does not particularly like Halloween, she does not judge those who innocently enjoy the festivities. That is the approach that the apostle Paul took on these kinds of things.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Does God just *wink* at those who participate - even only marginally - in Halloween activities?

This might be a really bad analogy, but if you see someone drinking poison, and *you* know it's poison because you've experienced it, would you not want to warn that person? Warn everyone?

(I know....I'm coming from a not-very-common perspective....)

[Ron Lambert]

Norman, Ellen G. White did apply this same liberal-with-people attitude to the observance of ostensibly pagan holidays. Consider these excerpts from Adventist Home pp. 482-3 concerning Christmas trees:

Quote:

---

"Shall We Have a Christmas Tree?"--

God would be well pleased if on Christmas each church would have a Christmas tree on which shall be hung offerings, great and small, for these houses of worship. Letters of inquiry have come to us asking, Shall we have a Christmas tree? Will it not be like the world? We answer, You can make it like the world if you have a disposition to do so, or you can make it as unlike the world as possible. There is no particular sin in selecting a fragrant evergreen and placing it in our churches, but the sin lies in the motive which prompts to action and the use which is made of the gifts placed upon the tree.

.

The tree may be as tall and its branches as wide as shall best suit the occasion; but let its boughs be laden with the golden and silver fruit of your beneficence, and present this to Him as your Christmas gift. Let your donations be sanctified by prayer.

.

Christmas and New Year celebrations can and should be held in behalf of those who are helpless. God is glorified when we give to help those who have large families to support.

.

A Tree Laden With Offerings Is Not Sinful.--

Let not the parents take the position that an evergreen placed in the church for the amusement of the Sabbath school scholars is a sin, for it may be made a great blessing. Keep before their minds benevolent objects. In no case should mere amusement be the object of these gatherings. While there may be some who will turn these occasions into seasons of careless levity, and whose minds will not receive the divine impress, to other minds and characters these seasons will be highly beneficial. I am fully satisfied that innocent substitutes can be devised for many gatherings that demoralize.

.

Provide Innocent Enjoyment for the Day.--

Will you not arise, my Christian brethren and sisters, and gird yourselves for duty in the fear of God, so arranging this matter that it shall not be dry and uninteresting, but full of innocent enjoyment that shall bear the signet of Heaven? I know the poorer class will respond to these suggestions. The most wealthy should also show an interest and bestow their gifts and offerings proportionate to the means with which God has entrusted them. Let there be recorded in the heavenly books such a Christmas as has never yet been seen because of the donations which shall be given for the sustaining of the work of God and the upbuilding of His kingdom.

---

[Ron Lambert]

Let me note something about pagan symbolism. Many of the symbols, such as the fir tree (sometimes seen sprouting from a tree stump) that paganism employs, are really attempts to hijack symbols of the true religion of Christ. While to some pagans the fir tree rising from a stump represented a son of Nimrod, long before that the same symbolism was employed as a Messianic symbol pointing toward Christ. So I would say, if paganism can hijack symbols of the true religion, why cannot true religion take back those symbols and return them to their original significance?

You can read about many such symbols that paganism hijacked in the book The Two Babylons, by Alexander Hisslop (available at Amazon.com).

Martin Luther wrote many spiritual songs for singing in churches, using the melodies of popular drinking songs. You would never know--or care--about the origin of such songs' melodies today. The U.S. National Anthem, "The Star-Spangled Banner," uses a melody very slightly adapted from the British drinking song, "To Anacreon in Heaven." I have heard performances of the latter (which has definitely pagan words, singing praises to various pagan deities), and the difference is only one or two additional notes at the end of each line, that the national anthem omits (improving the melodic line, in my opinion). I think it is safe to say that the national anthem far outshines the pagan drinking song from which it was derrived.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Ron, I think you're missing my point. The days we live in are evil. I don't condemn people for what they do but I am concerned about getting the message out that God given to us. You really can't compare Halloween to Christmas even though they have pagan origins. Halloween is something that should not be played with period. We need to educate our new people and the old who have never learned about it. Just do a study about it or ask someone who has been involved. Then read the book of Deuteronomy.

The type of thinking that you have on this subject is what our church has sought to promote for the longest time and it does not work.

Got to run I'll finishe later

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Ron just got back,

What I meant by the type of thinking you have or use in this instance is the get as close to the world as possible and then try to convert them. That just doesn't work. What people are yearning for is the true revelation of the character of God. Without that they will continue to seek after pagan (or man made comforting practices that lead away from God) so they can feel better.

I had a friend who wanted a sports bike but didn't feel right about getting it. So he opted for a sport touring bike, then a few months later he traded it in for the sports bike. His reasoning was that he would be able to reach other sports bike riders. He told me one day that he could find anyone that was intersted in talking about the Lord. (No kidding) Well he got rid of that bike in a year or so and went to an all out 1000cc sports bike. He ended up crashing with it and is no longer in church. He has left his wife and has a girlfriend with who he has a child. Meanwhile his ex wife is still going to church.

This is the result of the "be as close to the world as possible and then try to convert them" theory. It happens over and over. The best practice is to start preaching the Gospel and bring it to the lost and they will tell you that they don't want to be involved with wordly practices if they are taught properly. But it is in most cases, we the older members who are the ones who bring in these lame ideas instead of looking at ourselves and asking God to forgive our backsliding and then teach the new converts all things that Christ asked us to teach and preach in Mattthew 28: 18 - 20

Again I'm not directing these comment to anyone here

got to run,

Norman

[Dr. Shane]

I don't see there is anything magical about any day - not even the Sabbath day. The significance isn't in a 24 hour period of time. Look at the Sabbath for example. The eskimo in Alaska is not keeping the same 24 hours holy as the african in Kenya. The significance is that both are bringing glory to God through obedience to Him.

There is nothing wrong or evil about October 31. It is no different than any other 24 hour period of time during the year. The sun comes up and the sun goes down.

There is a lot of truth in the saying that "Idle hands are the devil's workshop". If the church does nothing for its members on October 31, its members are going to be tempted (and many will be drawn into) the world's way of celebrating Holloween. However if the church provides an activity which glorifies God it can turn what the devil meant to be evil into something good. Just like the story of Joseph being sold into Egypt.

The idea that celebrating on October 31 is wrong borders on embracing the evil that we oppose. By not celebrating on October 31 we recognize the false religion that honors it as being legitimate. We say, "We will not celebrate on that day because we do not want to honor your god". But their god (the devil) does not dictate to us which days we hold celebrations on and which ones we don't. The truth of the matter is that each day of the year is a pagan holiday in some religion. Celebrating birthdays is pagan. Hand shakes are pagen. Wearing white to a wedding is pagan. If all my neighbors are throwing a party to the devil, why is it wrong for me to throw a party to the Lord?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I agree, there's nothing wrong in celebrating ON a day. It's what is being *celebrated* that is important. However, the following statement kinda bothers me:

Quote:

---

By not celebrating on October 31 we recognize the false religion that honors it as being legitimate. We say, "We will not celebrate on that day because we do not want to honor your god."

But their god (the devil) does not dictate to us which days we hold celebrations on and which ones we don't..

---

You are right: the pagan gods don't dictate to Christians when to hold celebrations. The gods don't need to. We just blithely and unwittingly accept the pagan timetable and custom, then convince ourselves we're *really* doing it for the Lord, then stick our heads in the sand.....or so it seems to me.

[Dr. Shane]

The timetable we get from society. The fact that society may get it from a pagan tradition is of no concern of mine. In the society in which I live, October 31 is celebrated. Little children go trick-or-treating, stores are decorated, many go to haunted hayrides and houses, many clubs have costume parties, etc. Like it or not, society chooses holidays and Christians can ignore them, join them or create their own alternative celebrations.

BTW: I do not want to be misunderstood to state that all pagans are intentionally worshipping the devil. I believe few are. My point was that false religions are a perversion of the true which is a result of the devil.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

It does all boil down to choices we each make. I'd just like to see people make *informed* choices, is all. Rightly or wrongly, I care about people and dont wish to see anyone on the path that I trekked.

:::steps out of thread:::

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Shane, I read what you've written and I have to say some of your reasoning puzzles me. Since I can't persuade people into seeing what I'm trying to say I'll just go to the Bible and then ask you some questions. But before I do that I want to say that I know that it's not the 24 hr period that is the problem. It's what is represented and what that day was used for.

This is Moses repeating what the Lord told His people before they entered the land He promised them.

Deuteronomy 7:24 And he shall deliver their kings into thine hand, and thou shalt destroy their name from under heaven: there shall no man be able to stand before thee, until thou have destroyed them. 25 The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God. 26 Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.

So let me ask some questions:

What if those who were destroyed had child sacrifices and all types sexual rituals with them and others on a certain day. Now let's take what you've said and start to celebrate our own (not God given) festival so that the nations around us will not think us strange and so that those who have just joined God's people won't be tempted to celebrate the real meaning of that day. Do you think God would have said, "That's ok, it does matter it's just a 24hr period"

With the thinking you suggest they could have taken the gold or silver and said to Moses, "Hey, it's only gold and silver there's no evil in it." But God says no don't even like it, but detest it, it's abhorrent and a cursed thing.

But God, why should I let them dictate to me what I should do? By doing that do I validate their religion?" And God would say, “Yes you would and that's one of the reasons I don't want you to have anything to do with it.”

Quote:

---

If all my neighbors are throwing a party to the devil, why is it wrong for me to throw a party to the Lord?

---

Avoiding the appearance of evil would be one good reason and being a stumbling block to another Christian is another. The question should be, why is it right and is it pleasing to God?

Now I will generalize. It appears to me that as God's people many of us have lost the ability to see the common from the uncommon the holy and the unholy, we rationalize many things to make sure we don't offend or that we fit in or that other's who have just joined us won't feel strange. But I still say that we should stick to preaching the Gospel and that when it is done in the power of the Spirit, these pagan holidays will have no allure to the children of God.

Quote:

---

But their god (the devil) does not dictate to us which days we hold celebrations on and which ones we don't.

---

God could have destroyed Satan as easily as casting a pebble into a lake. God did not and let the circumstances dictate His actions because He did not want to be misunderstood and have the other angels served Him from fear. Therefore, in this sense, it is a good thing to let the enemy's works or practices dictate our behavior. We are to be selfless as God is selfless and as lambs brought to the slaughter. Not selfish and claiming that we have rights.

Quote:

---

Wearing white to a wedding is pagan.

---

I'd look into that one

Rev 19: 7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

Quote:

---

The truth of the matter is that each day of the year is a pagan holiday in some religion.

---

This may be so but not all days have such darkness linked to it.

Quote:

---

Celebrating birthdays is pagan.

---

I say let's get rid of that too Let's change it around so that the BD person gives a gift to the Lord as a thank offering.

If you must do something then my solution to all this: Oct 22-31 celebrate the Lord's going into the Most Holy Place by giving special studies on the sanctuary services and the day of atonement on the 31st. Just leave off the partying on the 31st. Or just have a simple but meaningful prayer meeting on the 31.

I hope I have cleared up my position, if not well I guess there's not much I can do

In Christ,

Norman

[Dr. Shane]

The Israelites were told not to eat meat offered to idols. The reason was because by eating the meat that was offered to idols, they were participating in idol worship. However Paul clarified that if someone offered meat to a believer, they needn't worry about if it had been offered to idols. It was only when they knowingly partook in eating the meat that had been offered to idols that they were considered to be worshipping the idol.

In the same way, we don't need to worry about the history of various celebrations in our culture today. Only a small, tiny fraction of those that celebrate Holloween are actual devil worshippers. Most are just trying to relax, enjoy themselves and get rid of a little stress. There is nothing any more evil with any specific day than there is with meat that had been offered to an idol. It is when we knowingly participate in the false religion that our behavior is offensive to God. Celebrating the Reformation or the end of a harvest on October 31 is not knowingly participaing in witchcraft.