Not taught of men

[joeb]

Thanks, Scott.

Even though this is causing me some angst, I think it's a good thing to be rustled out of complacency and do a gut check. The line between right and wrong, and good and evil in society, spirituality, and politics has become so blurred that I sometimes wonder if most (including myself) can see it at all.

Between what media, society and some "christian" sects tell us is acceptable; and the government monitoring us to make sure we don't make waves, society's standards are being reduced to the lowest common denominator. Some things that used to be totally unacceptable may soon be so protected that it will be a hate crime to speak out against them. "Let's do what makes everyone comfortable and happy - even if it is at the long-term expense of our children's (maybe even the planet's) future. Let's have the security and happiness of Hindu cattle instead of the principled freedom given to us by the Creator".

I'm not on a tea party rant here. I'm all for people having the freedom to do and say as they see fit. If someone wants to howl at the full moon naked while sacrificing chickens, they have a right to do so (except maybe the sacrificing chickens part); just as long as I can choose not to participate and have the freedom of speech to question the practice without being perceived as a "hater".

I'm just sharing some deep personal self-reflection here; hopefully just to get us to think about where we, as a society and group of believers, may be heading.

JoeMo,

I know you're a secret tea party member..... LOL.

There is only one solution to the problem you're having. The solution is to take it to God honestly and in its complete fullness. He knows where you are and what your motives are even if you don't, and He will lead you to where you are supposed to be if you honestly want Him to and will surrender all those things that stand between you and Him.

The battle between God and the devil is a battle for our minds, for what we believe and think controls how we act and whose side we choose to join, so the only way to know we're on the right track is to keep on asking God to keep us there for, as Jeremiah says, our hearts are desperately wicked. Only the constant present of the Holy Spirit can give us the wisdom to recognize the devil's deceptions. Otherwise we're completely outclassed in the wisdom and brains department.

We just cannot trust to our own smarts. Adam had us outclassed in smarts by a long ways, and he didn't have the same inner drive of selfishness that we do, and he and Eve still lost the battle. We sometimes forget that, and that we includes me for I've made that mistake time and time again because it sounds really good to my selfish heart to hear that I'm really smart and can figure this stuff out on my own.

I'm only right when I let God lead me. In all other instances I'm wrong. It's very simple, but oh so hard to accept and keep ever before me.

[Gail]

It's a challenge, isn't it? But I thank God for godly friends who provide us with wisdom and encouragement to keep us in the family

Can you see the value of Scripture in ministering to our soul? It's like that verse in 2 Tim 3:16 that tells us that Scripture is profitable to tell us where we are going wrong, point us in the right direction and keep us heading there.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I'm only right when I let God lead me. In all other instances I'm wrong. It's very simple, but oh so hard to accept and keep ever before me.

How does that square with this promise below?

"…Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Matt 11:29-30 KJV Bold theirs' LHC

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[JoeMo]

Thanks for the advice and encouragement, joeb. God ant I had a talk; and where cool right now. The trick is continuing to rest in Him.

LHC, Amen for that promise of Jesus. It is true that the yoke He puts on us is easy and the burden light. For me, the hard part is ALWAYS believing that promise. When Paul talks about having run the good race, he is talking about the good race of faith. ALWAYS remembering that "Jesus paid it all; all to Him I owe" and NEVER falling for the lie that I have to earn my part of salvation by somehow showing Jesus that I am worthy (whatever that looks like).

[Gail]

Here is a promise of Jesus:

John 14:21, KJV:

"he that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

What commandments is He talking about?

[JoeMo]

Hi Gail,

Quote:

he that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." What commandments is He talking about?

I think it is specifically talking the 10 Commandments and other commands He gave during His earthly ministry (e.g., "love one another"). I would like to add the following verses 23 and 24 from the same chapter:

Quote:

“Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

My question is this - Is jesus saying that one of the conditions for "loving Him" is keeping His commandmants, or that the prerequisite for being enabled or empowered to keep His Commandments is to love Him? I think it is the latter.

[Gail]

Obedience without oneness is pretty dry. I think most of us can relate to that with some experience

[joeb]

Hi Gail,

Quote:

he that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." What commandments is He talking about?

I think it is specifically talking the 10 Commandments and other commands He gave during His earthly ministry (e.g., "love one another"). I would like to add the following verses 23 and 24 from the same chapter:

Quote:

“Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

My question is this - Is jesus saying that one of the conditions for "loving Him" is keeping His commandmants, or that the prerequisite for being enabled or empowered to keep His Commandments is to love Him? I think it is the latter.

I think a couple of questions will help you answer your question.

Is God your or my equal?

Is God the ruler of the universe?

Do we owe Him anything?

Ellen White says that when we desire to do the right thing and then act on that desire we are empowered to obey, and not before. It's like the cripple at the pool of Bethesda. He didn't have the power to get up and walk until he obeyed Jesus command. He could have doubted his ability to obey the command, but he accepted by faith that Jesus wouldn't tell him to do anything he couldn't do without Jesus. So, he got up and walked by faith.

[Gail]

How about walking in unity?

If Jesus is our Lord and Master, it does sound like that entails some obedience.

[Gail]

In any case, when there is a Lord and Master that does imply submission. Obedience doesn't have to be nasty, does it?

[joeb]

In any case, when there is a Lord and Master that does imply submission. Obedience doesn't have to be nasty, does it?

Not unless a person thinks that all obedience a child gives toward its parents is indicative of coercion and force.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Is God your or my equal?

No God is greater

Quote:

Is God the ruler of the universe?

Of course He is

Quote:

Do we owe Him anything?

Yes, but the debt is impossible to repay. All He asks us for is our trust and love. If we give Him that, His commands become our empowerment.

[Gail]

Quote:

Yes, but the debt is impossible to repay. All He asks us for is our trust and love. If we give Him that, His commands become our empowerment.

Now there is some food for thought!

[scott.t]

What do we owe God? He created us with flaws. Built us to fail, then is disappointed when we do so.What do we owe him?

Scott

[Gail]

What do we owe God? He created us with flaws. Built us to fail, then is disappointed when we do so.What do we owe him?

Scott

According to Genesis, he didn't create us with flaws. But certainly now we struggle against hereditary weaknesses. It brings to mind the Scriptures that talks about the body that Christ took on when He came to earth (Hebrews something)

[JoeMo]

Quote:

He created us with flaws.

If He created us with any "flaws", it's that He gave us a free will as a gift. That meant we could do whatever we chose to do. However, choosing wrongly had (and still has) consequences. The flaws we now have are the consequences of both nature and nurture over the centuries. That's why we needed a Savior; otherwise, we didn't stand a chance. We got what we needed in Jesus.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

He created us with flaws. Built us to fail, then is disappointed when we do so.

Scott

I partially agree with the above.

Adam and Eve were the only ones who were created having no flaws. And, technically, they were the only humans who were actually "created"... the rest of us are products of procreation of Adam and Eve's offspring. To say that God created a baby to be acephalic or to have other issues, is not correct, imho. God allowed those conditions to happen, but He didn't *design* or *create* them.

Even Jesus was born with human frailties and weakness...He was no 9 ft tall Adam with super physical strength.

But as such, He set a standard for the rest of us...to show us that Satan's monkey wrenches thrown into humanity could be overcome...

leastways, that's how I see it...

[joeb]

Quote:

Is God your or my equal?

No God is greater

Quote:

Is God the ruler of the universe?

Of course He is

Quote:

Do we owe Him anything?

Yes, but the debt is impossible to repay. All He asks us for is our trust and love. If we give Him that, His commands become our empowerment.

So, because we can't fully repay the debt we don't make an effort to do what we can? I find that line of thought very flawed.

A child can never fully repay his parents, but does that mean he makes no effort show his appreciation and do what he can to repay the debt through loving obedience towards his parents?

[scott.t]

Originally Posted By: scott.t

What do we owe God? He created us with flaws. Built us to fail, then is disappointed when we do so.What do we owe him?

Scott

According to Genesis, he didn't create us with flaws. But certainly now we struggle against hereditary weaknesses. It brings to mind the Scriptures that talks about the body that Christ took on when He came to earth (Hebrews something)

How much of where he came from did Jesus know while on earth? Did he remember his time in heaven before he came to save us?

Of the billions of people that have been born and lived, and none of us have been perfect, I would say we are born flawed.Who is responsible for us being born? If God is in control of the whole universe, then he is responsible for how we are born or initially created.Why create us with these flaws or weaknesses?

Sorry for the job like questions. I am very curious however of other peoples opinions of what we owe God when we did not even request being created.

Scott

[scott.t]

Please do not take my questions as combative or disrespectful. I post very little, but read many of the topics and have great respect for many of the people that post.

Scott

[LifeHiscost]

What do we owe God? He created us with flaws. Built us to fail, then is disappointed when we do so.What do we owe him?

[joeb]

Quote:

Is God your or my equal?

No God is greater

Quote:

Is God the ruler of the universe?

Of course He is

Quote:

Do we owe Him anything?

Yes, but the debt is impossible to repay. All He asks us for is our trust and love. If we give Him that, His commands become our empowerment.

Is this not a repayment for the debt we owe Him?

He first loved us and asks us to love in return. Does that not imply a repayment of the debt of love we have towards Him?