The Harlot of Revelation who rides the Beast

[Samie]

Quote:

Lev 16 details the ministration of the high priest on the day of Atonement. Could you please explain why in the Septuagint "eiserchomai" was used in v2 while v3 used "eisporeuomai", and in v23, both "eiserchomai" and "eisporeuomai" were used in the same verse?

I wasn't born yesterday and all I can say is, huh???

...

[LifeHiscost]

Much obliged for the revealed distinction. As to

Quote:

or that the Author of Hebrews made a horrible mistake that we need to correct.

if the printers, authors or scribes made any mistakes, God, being Who He is (Love), would not allow it to go centuries, particularly leading up to the coming of Christ (the harvest)without assuring that everyone willing to let Him take His rightful rule over the earth and its' inhabitants, find opportunity for full understanding of their full salvation.

"And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares."Mark 13:34 KJV

"But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."

1 Thess 5:1-11 KJV

Our salvation depends more upon Who we know than how much we know.

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[BobRyan]

Is the harlot Jerusalem?

Is the harlot Papal Rome?

Papal Rome seems to have many daughters - denominations who have some doctrines in common with Rome.

If the harlot is Jerusalem - then who/what would qualify as her daughters?

the Catholics say it is the Jews, and Jerusalem is the city.

The Protestants were not so easily mislead on that one.

The Rev 17 entity is Papal Rome as many protestants figured out because the book of Revelation covers important events future to John's day.

The Dark Ages being one of those big important events looming on the horizon.

in Christ,

Bob

[8thdaypriest]

Not sure why we are talking about WHEN Christ entered the Most Holy Place, in this discussion about the identity of the Harlot of Revelation.

I believe that Christ entered the MHP when He ascended to the Father's right hand.

I also believe that He will come before the judgment/court of Daniel 7:9-10 on the very last day of this age.

The High Priest entered the MHP and came out to bless the waiting people of Israel ON THE SAME DAY.

The Day of Atonement was a ONE DAY Fast.

If the Fall Feasts will be "fulfilled in like manner" (EGW) as the Spring, then

Passover was - ONE DAY, The Feast of Firstfruits was ONE DAY, and Pentecost was ONE DAY.

I don't get the whole 170 yrs plus thing.

If you check EGW's "vision" published in "Spiritual Gifts" and in "Early Writings" she says that she was "shown" what happened in heaven on October 22nd, 1844. She wrote that she "saw" Jesus IN the MHP. Then she describes how He is dressed. He is wearing the glorious "daily" garb (blue ephod, tinkling bells on the hem, breastplate, crown). He is NOT wearing the five pieces of plain white linen that was the required garb for the Day of Atonement. I think if anyone had checked with Lev. 16, they might have concluded that October 22nd, 1844 was NOT the longed for fulfillment of the Day of Atonement. I think maybe the LORD was trying to tell them that they got it wrong. Instead they built a whole doctrine based upon an ongoing Day of Atonement, and investigative judgment.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[hch]

Here's the identity of the harlot:

Quote:

ASV Revelation 17:18 And the woman whom thou sawest is the great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth...

YLT Revelation 17:18 and the woman that thou didst see is the great city that is having reign over the kings of the land.'

Which is this city (Greek "polis")? There's only one such city: the Vatican City.

Yes, I can be wrong...

The many translations were interesting.

Going back to the KJV with Strong's numbers inserted:

Revelation 17:18 And <2532> the woman <1135> which <3739> thou sawest <1492> (5627) is <2076> (5748) that great <3173> city <4172>, which <3588> reigneth <2192> (5723) <932> over <1909> the kings <935> of the earth <1093>.

is <2076> (5748) Third person present [is to be or will be]

great <3173> 4b) of things which overstep the province of a created being, proud (presumptuous) things, full of arrogance, derogatory to the majesty of God

city <4172> 1c) the inhabitants of a city [like a church is not the building only but those that are the members.]

king <935> [in Strong's the word is not always differentiated as pleural or singular]

Revelation 13 identifies the earth as a specific place. The USA fits the description as Truman is the only "king from the earth" to have drawn fire down from heaven on Japan in the sight of eyewitnesses.

Thus going back to the KJV with Strong's numbers inserted:

Revelation 17:18 And <2532> the woman <1135> which <3739> you saw <1492> (5627) is to be <2076> (5748) the proud (presumptuous) arrogant, <3173> inhabitants <4172>, which <3588> reign <2192> (5723) <932> over <1909> the king <935> of the earth <1093>.

From my extensive Bible study that was just published (America, the Obama Nation) I understand the text to be saying:

"And the woman [apostate Protestantism], which you saw is to be the proud (presumptuous) arrogant inhabitants, which reign [power derived of the people being governed] over President Obama of the earth [America].

I too could be wrong, but I did understand enough of the meaning of Revelation 17 to identify the men it was speaking of:

5 are fallen: Popes Pius XI & XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, & John-Paul I

The one that is: John-Paul II

And the one that was to come for a short space: Benedict XVI

With that understanding I tweeted 8 tweets about Benedict concluding that he would not be pope in 2013. (you can check the tweeter archives THE TIME DATED TWEETS ARE THERE] I cannot retweet myself so when he resigned in Feb. 2013, I looked up each tweet and sent them out a second time giving the date of the original so that people could look them up for themselves.

1) Pope Benedict XVI has but a very short time left (9/3/11)

2)#Pope Benedict XVI marks his last year with a Latin America trip that includes a visit to #Cuba (23 March 2012)

3)With Benedict XVI in his last year,

Who’s going to be the new pope? … (3 April 2012)

4) Is Pope Benedict going to be pope in 2013? (29 April 2012)

5) Months ago I tweeted that pope Benedict XVI is a short timer. Now Vatican power play is news! Y u b last 2 know? (28 May 2012)

6)If Pope Benedict’s 8th year is really his 7th, his time ends before May 2013 (7 July 2012)

7) Pope Benedict’s 8th year is really his 7th, because his ascension year was John-Paul II’s last year. Will Benedict XVI’s 7th year B his last (8 August 2012)

8) Pope #Benedict XVI As I read Daniel’s prophecy, 7’s number of completeness. His ascension year (zero) 2005.

He might last till spring 2013? (30 September 2012)

9) Pope Benedict announced this morning (Monday February 11, 2013) that he is resigning as of 28 February 2013.

I do not know everything, but I have been Prayerfully studying Bible prophecy for over 20-years and I am confident that my understanding of Revelation 17 before Benedict's resignation speaks for itself better than most folks understanding of Revelation 17 after Benedict's resignation.

[Kevin H]

Not sure why we are talking about WHEN Christ entered the Most Holy Place, in this discussion about the identity of the Harlot of Revelation.

What I was trying to point out is that there were some serious Bible conferences over in Europe in the late 1700s to the early 1800s. Miller's interpretation came from these conferences. They were excellent studies using the best information available.

However, in the years since Protestants have fallen into either Preterism or futurism, thus having abandoned the train of thought that carried the church through history. Then Seventh-day Adventists, who have held to and continue to share the findings of these conferences have set the findings in concrete as if they had the final word as to what these texts mean.

I wanted to point out that in the mid 1800s we entered a whole new experience in that the ancient world has been rediscovered. We have so much more information that the scholars at these conferences could not even dream of having to study. I was calling that we need to build upon the foundation that they gave us with the new light that we have received from Biblical Geography, history, culture, archaeology and linguistic studies. I was saying that since Seventh-day Adventists are saying that something special happened in the Mid 1800s and we see that something special did happen in the mid 1800s, why don't we take advantage of this instead of keeping our study at the level reached in the early 1800s and not moving on.

[hch]

I was saying that since Seventh-day Adventists are saying that something special happened in the Mid 1800s and we see that something special did happen in the mid 1800s, why don't we take advantage of this instead of keeping our study at the level reached in the early 1800s and not moving on.

That is a keeper

[wendys]

The original question was whether the harlot woman of Revelation 17, the woman with the name Babylon on her forehead, is Jerusalem or Papal Rome. Her daughters do not have that name on their foreheads, but they are of the same family.

The harlot woman of Revelation 17 has a characteristic that few notice. Note that she is to be burned at the end of the chapter, the reason being that she is a harlot and has deceived the world because of it. In the Bible, there is a law about that, which is:

Quote:

Lev 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

Thus, this woman of Revelation 17 is the daughter of a priest and obviously the daughter of another, previous woman. So, she doe not just appear out of thin air even though Revelation 17 makes it seem that way if you do a surface reading.

Now, if you go back to Revelation 12, you will discover that that woman had children, a fact that is obvious from verse 17, which says:

Quote:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Since the Bible is to define its own symbols insofar as is possible, then we should conclude that the harlot woman of Revelation 17 is in fact the daughter of the woman of Revelation 12. Since God is the "husband" of the church in the Bible (specifically that of Revelation 12), then this daughter is the product of the marriage of the church with God, symbolically speaking.

Now, according to the story of Revelation 12, the woman first had a son who was caught up to God, which clearly represents Jesus, and then afterwards she had other children, apparently all daughters. Thus, the harlot woman of Revelation 17 came about after Jesus went back to heaven. Since Revelation 12 and 17 both show us that daughters occur when churches split apart over their various belief differences, then the harlot woman of Revelation 17 must arise because of differences in doctrine between her and her mother and the split must occur after Jesus goes back to heaven.

Historically, we know that this happened when Constantine brought the pagans into the church, and part of the church accepted the compromises that were necessary to do this while others within the church did not accept the compromises. Thus, a split developed between them. The compromised group had the support of the state, while the other group did not have that and really was a continuation of the original church. Thus, mother and daughter became a reality because of Constantine. The daughter persecuted her mother thereafter. Today, the daughter claims to be the mother church, which she is to almost all Protestant Churches that exist today. But in reality, she is the daughter of another, earlier church - the original church that came from Jerusalem.

The daughter, the harlot woman of Revelation 17 with the name Babylon on her forehead, is Papal Rome. There is no other reasonable conclusion.

[Samie]

...

The daughter, the harlot woman of Revelation 17 with the name Babylon on her forehead, is Papal Rome. There is no other reasonable conclusion

[8thdaypriest]

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The word "reigneth" is present tense.

The "city" which reigned in John's day was Rome.

[8thdaypriest]

wendys,

Liked your post. Good exegesis.

[8thdaypriest]

I'm going to copy a post I just put up in the thread on Zechariah 14.

Zechariah 14:1-2 reminds me of Revelation, where the 10 Kings (I believe the whole earth will be divided into 10 regions) turn on the Harlot and burn her with fire.

Zechariah 5:5-11 talks about "a woman" carried in a basket with a lead disc cover, by two women with wings like storks. They are carrying "the basket" "To build a house for it in the land of Shinar; When it is ready, the basket will be set there on its base". Zechariah is told the woman "is Wickedness".

Sounds like the Harlot to me, probably with two of "her" "daughters".

[Kevin H]

Now if the woman in Revelation 18 was the daughter of the woman in Revelation 12 John would not have needed to be astonished.

Again, John sees the pure woman who gives birth to the man child. This is Judeo-Christianity. God's church in both testaments. A woman who John is very proud of.

She is chased into the wilderness by the dragon. The story is left without an ending.

Then in Revelation 18 we find a woman riding the beast. (we like to apply the Catholic church to both images and while Revelation 18 supports our doctrines, it is quite a blow to our tradition, have you ever noticed that our tradition ends up saying that here we have the church riding the church?)

Anyway, John said "When I saw HER I was astonished" The reason why John would be astonished when he saw HER is that she is the same woman! The same woman who John saw being chased into the wilderness by the dragon now comes out of the wilderness riding the beast. She has apostatized. She and the beast are now partners.

We are against Sunday laws because there is a mingling of Church state that should not be. Kennedy had to watch his step as a Catholic, and was faithful to the separation of church and state. When Reagan was in (and I have since come to see that Reagan was pressured to do a lot of the things he did so I don't want to blame him) laws that Protestants would have hopped all over Kennedy if he tried to implement, Protestants were now doing with a Protestant President with their blessings. The influence of the "Moral Majority" was pushing government where it did not belong. Today we are seeing the same thing only the religion being pushed is the religion of secularism. The 1980s was a way of seducing the Protestants from their protecting of the separation of church and state and today we are finding the secularists being seduced into the same deception that Protestants fell into in the 1980s.

Also, we have J. D. Rockefeller, who was a strong Christian. We have that beautiful church on Riverside Drive in New York City. Yet Rockefeller's best friend was Nelson Aldrich who was one of the founders of the federal reserve and other organizations of the super rich which is destroying the constitution of the United States as they are moving from the 6th head to the 7th head.

The woman is Judeo-Christianity working with the developing world state.

[wendys]

If she were the same woman, then why is it that Revelation 12 tells us that the woman goes into the wilderness and is hidden there for 1260 days? And according to you, we have the woman at the same time fornicating with the kings of the earth? There is a problem with that interpretation. The only way to resolve that is for there to be a split in the church, which in fact DID happen. The true church that existed before Constantine continued on and was persecuted by the false church, the church that is the daughter of the true church because of its apostasy. John was astonished because he saw her riding the beast, but her condition is that she was drunk and had been persecuting. He was astonished because of her drunken state. He well knew that the woman represents a church, for that symbolism is introduced in both the Old and New Testaments, and a church should not be drunk on the blood of the saints. It does not make sense to say that he saw the same woman for the woman of Revelation 12 is never said to apostatize but is faithful for the whole 1260 days and never said to apostatize after the 1260 days either. Revelation 12 tell us that the woman was persecuted for 1260 days AND it tells us that she has children. The woman of Revelation 17 also has children, which we know are the daughter churches, so given that history shows a split, the conclusion I draw is the correct interpretation of this symbolism.

The woman rides a beast on the 7 heads. She does not ride on the back. During the time of the body of the beast, she is part of the beast because the body of the beast represents the combination of the woman fornicating with the kings of the earth, or, on other words, church + state for the purpose of persecution of the saints. The 7 heads are the 7 kings that come after the 1260 days and they are the popes of the Catholic Church. The woman represents the whole church, which includes the popes, but because it represents other things besides the popes, it is a different symbol so that she can ride it and still make sense.

[wendys]

I am going to add one more point to my previous post. The woman of Revelation 12 clearly begins as the Old Testament Church, the Jewish Church. Nowhere in the Old Testament is she described as being the daughter of a priest. But in Revelation 17, the woman there MUST be the daughter of a priest because being burned is the law only for the daughter of a priest. No other woman was sentenced that way by law that I know of anywhere else in the Bible. Thus, the woman in Revelation 12 is not the daughter of a priest while the woman of Revelation 17 is the daughter of a priest. She is the daughter of the original church that is married to Jesus, who is God, and he (Jesus) is the symbolic husband of the church. Thus, the two women cannot be the same woman no matter how much a person may wish them to be the same woman. It is impossible for her to be both the daughter of a priest and not be the daughter of a priest, so they cannot be the same woman.

[Samie]

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The word "reigneth" is present tense.

The "city" which reigned in John's day was Rome.

Using your reasoning, "was cast" is past tense, and therefore you are saying the throwing into the lake of fire is not future:

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[Samie]

...

The daughter, the harlot woman of Revelation 17 with the name Babylon on her forehead, is Papal Rome. There is no other reasonable conclusion.

[wendys]

Samie,

Apparently I did not make it clear enough. Popes did not exist in John's day.

just because the angel said "one is" does not automatically mean it was in John's day. John was told he was to see things of the future, so if the "one is" is in John's day, then a whole lot of the history of this beast is in John's past, not his future. Given what the angel told John in Rev. 4:1, that does not make much sense. He therefore had to be talking about the future, not John's present day.

[Kevin H]

Wendy: At least you are studying and there are some things I agree with although things at least to me, appears to be speculation built on traditions that are built on the Bible.

The beast sits on the 7 mountains. While we tend to jump on it meaning the 7 hills of Rome, and there is a lesser application there so that is not a wrong interpretation. However there is a bigger interpretation that has only been discovered in archaeology. The concept of the Sacred mountains. The beast has elements to the nations in Daniel 7. Thus I cannot agree with your interpretation that the 7 heads are the 7 popes. Also, while the Holy Roman Empire suffered a deadly wound with the American and French Revolutions. The arrest of the Pope in 1798 did not effect the papacy. There were scholars of many faiths studying the Bible at that time and theorized that the arrest of the Pope was going to be a deadly wound to the pope. Then the churches began falling into Preterism and Futurism and giving up what they had developed. What we teach is where they have left off. Sadly we have mostly built tradition and speculation and at best only preserved what they did. However, the papacy did NOT receive the deadly wound in 1798. But by the time history revealed this speculation and expectation to not work out, the scholars had traded in their work for the theories of Preterism or Futurism.

One book which has continued to build on their work is George McCready Price "The Time of the End" I would strongly recommend that book to everyone reading here.

For Adventists who want to have a strong study beyond the typical Daniel and Revelation seminar, for ministers and teachers who want to advance their D&R teachings, and even for those of you here, such as Wendys who want to count the pope's heads and the length of time that John Paul lived from 9/11 etc. to at least see what you are up against. http://www.amazon.com/Time-End-George-Mc...+mccready+price

I also strongly recommend the chapter in the SDABC "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy" and the book "Before Philosophy" by Henri Frankfort and others. http://www.amazon.com/Before-Philosophy-...fore+Philosophy

http://www.adventistbookcenter.com/seven...to-malachi.html

I wish that Every Adventist interested in Prophecy would read these 2 books and that article.

Anyway; The sacred mountains are that every nation had their own sacred mountain. To the Greeks it was Mt. Olympus. To the Hebrews it was Mt. Zion. In Babylon where it is flat they tried to build their own sacred mountain, the Tower of Babel.

Thus a bigger and more Biblical interpretation of the 7 mountains are, rather than the lesser application to Rome, one place with 7 hills, but to 7 empires.

Anyway: Deuteronomy 4 gives two possible histories for the Hebrews. One is if they lived in the land, were faithful and nations would have either joined or rejected them and the end of the world would come. If unfaithful they would get curses and finally go into exile where the Messiah would come and bring them home in a second great exodus. (other texts fill in more details)

Hezekiah had a reformation. After his illness emissaries from Babylon came. Had Hezekiah showed them his true riches; his God, his reformation could have spread through the world and about a century later good king Joshua could have started his reign. However instead of showing his true riches, he just showed them his stuff. And instead of the gospel being spread to the world, the news of that stuff went back to Babylon. And instead of good king Joshua becoming emperor of the world, the world began being ruled by others in his place, or in Greek the word for "In Place of" is Anti. So we entered the first of 7 great empires who ruled over where most of God's chosen people lived in place of good king Joshua. The first was Babylon, followed by Medio-Persia, Greece, Rome, the Holy Roman Empire (including Papal Supremacy), the deadly wound where there were independent countries (this head has all the horns and the crowns are on the horns), and the deadly wound to be healed by the world uniting under economic cooperation with the merchants of the earth (the great business and financial corporations) are ruling the earth.

The beast is any organized group that replaces Christ in our lives. The heads of the beast are the 7 empires who ruled the majority of God's people from the fall of the house of David until the restoration of the rule of the Son of David. But sadly we are going to find with the 7th head that too many in the church are going to be not only cooperating with the beast but riding the beast.

[8thdaypriest]

Israel - the "woman" - split into two "nations".

The 10 Northern tribes split off, and became thoroughly pagan.

Jeroboam set up two temples at Dan and Bethel, where he set up golden calves to worship.

He set up Feast days on days OTHER than those appointed by the LORD.

I guess you could say that Israel (the 10 tribes) was a "daughter" of the WHOLE nation of Israel (12 tribes).

Judea - at least under Hezekiah - followed the ways of the LORD.

Yes - she was later corrupted by paganism.

Isn't this eerily similar to what happened to the "church".

She split into a "pure" woman, and a "harlot".

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I wish that Every Adventist interested in Prophecy would read these 2 books and that article.

May I also recommend "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church" by Marvin Rosenthal.

[wendys]

Kevin H,

Two questions.

1. Please show me the Bible text which says that the beast sits on the 7 mountains.

2. Please show me a beast in Daniel which has heads on it with kingdoms that occur in sequence.

[wendys]

8thdaypriest,

Perhaps you could look at it that way. But, the whole nation was not a priest. And the nation of Israel, as the church, is the symbolic "wife" of God, so the ten tribes really does not fit with the woman of Revelation 17 who must be the daughter of a priest for her to be burned for her harlotry.

[hch]

Kevin H,

Two questions.

1. Please show me the Bible text which says that the beast sits on the 7 mountains.

2. Please show me a beast in Daniel which has heads on it with kingdoms that occur in sequence.

It is refreshing to read logical bible study instead of so much speculation.

[8thdaypriest]

Quote:

I wish that Every Adventist interested in Prophecy would read these 2 books and that article.

May I also recommend "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church" by Marvin Rosenthal.

I have read Rosenthal's book. It really got me thinking and searching. I am now convinced that the righteous (in Christ) will be removed from this earth BEFORE the 7 last wrath plagues are poured out.

Rahab and family were removed from Jericho BEFORE its complete destruction.

The trumpet plagues are only warnings. They are NOT universal. Which is why I believe that IF Mrs White was "shown" the plagues, she was looking at the effects of the trumpets, because she wrote "these plagues are not universal." She just thought they were the 7 last plagues.

If she had simply written down what she was shown, instead of placing her interpretation (many times influenced by others) on the visions, then we would not have the contradictions that keep cropping up.

I believe that Satan will use the 7 Trumpet judgments to deceive the people of earth into believing that they ARE in fact the 7 last plagues. Every man on the street knows that there will be 7 last plagues. After the Trumpet plagues, his counterfeit "Christ" will "sit in the Temple" demanding "worship".

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint