Sojourner Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 In Ecclesiastes 3:3 we are told that there is a "time to kill". Is this descriptive of the concept of "Just War"? As an Adventist, do you support the ideal of Just War and accept that there is "a time to kill"? Quote
LifeHiscost Posted August 18, 2014 Posted August 18, 2014 In Ecclesiastes 3:3 we are told that there is a "time to kill". Is this descriptive of the concept of "Just War"? As an Adventist, do you support the ideal of Just War and accept that there is "a time to kill"? Judging from this verse below, I would say yes. However I'm not sure fallen man has the capacity to function as performing a fully just action. "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."Rev 12:7-12 KJV We can be grateful for what the devil knows and that the battle is in the hands of He Who causes no unjustified actions. Quote Lift Jesus up!!
joeb Posted August 20, 2014 Posted August 20, 2014 Yes, I do accept the idea of a "just war" and that there is a "time to kill". As LHC pointed out the first war was in heaven. Jesus Himself was the commander of the heavenly forces. Jesus also gave Moses, Abraham, David and other kings of Israel, definite instructions to go to war. The OT also shows us that there was justifiable killing in the rules given to the COI by Jesus. The Biblical evidence for this undeniable, so to say all war is bad and there can never be a "justifiable war" or a "justifiable killing" has to be untrue according to the Bible itself. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
Steven Chavez Posted May 15, 2015 Posted May 15, 2015 By loving our enemy, sometimes that means to stop him from doing evil with deadly force. Sojourner, I like your picture by the way. I train in martial arts as well and get asked how I can still follow what the Bible says. The Hebrew word used in the 10 commandments means to "murder", or to kill in hate, or with evil in your heart, or to have animosity in your heart towards your enemy. The Hebrew word in Ecclesiastes means just to kill, as in on the battlefield, an execution for an evil crime, or the defence of one's self, family, or freedoms. God bless, and keep up the aikido! Sojourner and Stan 2 Quote
Steven Chavez Posted May 15, 2015 Posted May 15, 2015 Ps: Sorry I was late, I just found this forum cause I was having to make a good argument for justified killing to my pastor's son, I feel like I am ready now. Take care all! Sojourner and Stan 2 Quote
Stewart Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 In my view the only "just war" is a war in which the weapons are not "carnal". Man's way is to overcome evil with force, but God's way is to overcome evil with good. Satan and his angels were certainly "cast out" in the very first war, but I think that God's way of casting out, or evicting, is so far above man's way, as to make it almost unrecognizable. The Spirit of Prophecy describes those to whom heaven is "supreme torture". (GC 670) "It's purity, holiness and peace would be [and was, to the first rebels,] torture to them; the glory of God would be [and was] a consuming fire. They would long to [and did] flee from that holy place." (GC 543) This, in my opinion, is how the casting out happened in heaven. This was "just" eviction, the result of a "just" war. Quote
Stan Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 By loving our enemy, sometimes that means to stop him from doing evil with deadly force. Sojourner, I like your picture by the way. I train in martial arts as well and get asked how I can still follow what the Bible says. The Hebrew word used in the 10 commandments means to "murder", or to kill in hate, or with evil in your heart, or to have animosity in your heart towards your enemy. The Hebrew word in Ecclesiastes means just to kill, as in on the battlefield, an execution for an evil crime, or the defence of one's self, family, or freedoms. God bless, and keep up the aikido! Yes, and the connotation was understood as "You shall not kill (another Hebrew) Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com
Stan Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 Ps: Sorry I was late, I just found this forum cause I was having to make a good argument for justified killing to my pastor's son, I feel like I am ready now. Take care all! Trusting this was humour? D. Allan 1 Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com
Steven Chavez Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 Trusting this was humour? Sort of, this discussion started in august, that's why I said I was late. But as for what I said about my pastor's son, no. I'm good friends with him, he's like a little brother. He challenged me to read an article he sent me about pacifism and then tell him what I thought. So I've been praying and studying and now I believe I'm ready to discuss this with him. Quote
Robert Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) Yes, I do accept the idea of a "just war" and that there is a "time to kill". As LHC pointed out the first war was in heaven. Jesus Himself was the commander of the heavenly forces. Yes, but if there was actual "war" in heaven wouldn't Lucifer and his angels have been slaughtered? Jesus also gave Moses, Abraham, David and other kings of Israel, definite instructions to go to war. Why? Give some examples of Moses and Abraham.... Edited May 17, 2015 by Robert Quote
TrevorL Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 In Ecclesiastes 3:3 we are told that there is a "time to kill". Is this descriptive of the concept of "Just War"? As an Adventist, do you support the ideal of Just War and accept that there is "a time to kill"? Greetings Sojourner, Although there is a time to kill, the Christian under Christ is commanded to love his enemies and do good to them that hate us. Thus there is not a Just War in the present era, and those that kill go against God and Christ. Kind regards Trevor Quote
LifeHiscost Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 Trusting this was humour? Even if it was it doesn't seem to me to be worth the risk. …35"The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 36"But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37"For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."....Matthew 12 God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Aliensanctuary Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 "And there was war in heaven: ... As LHC pointed out the first war was in heaven. [space] The book of Revelation, I believe, is about the future, not the past. Stranded on Earth, Satan will have nothing else to do but fool as many humans as he possibly can, and, kill as many followers of YHVH as permitted. Quote The Parable of the Lamb and the Pigpen https://www.createspace.com/3401451
Aliensanctuary Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 In our time, wars to stop evil madmen from conquering the world might be more justifiable than war-for-profit or religious hatred or hegemony. Quote The Parable of the Lamb and the Pigpen https://www.createspace.com/3401451
joeb Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 (edited) Yes, but if there was actual "war" in heaven wouldn't Lucifer and his angels have been slaughtered? Why? Give some examples of Moses and Abraham.... Huh? So you deny the plain word of God. The Greek says war. The English says war. Your question is a logical fallacy. Why would God have destroyed Satan rather than just physically expelled him from heaven? By killing him right then He would have destroyed His own chance to win the overall war with Satan for He had not yet disproved Satan's allegations. Why should I give you examples of war that God said to engage in when you know there are many examples already? In addition to Moses and Abraham there are others such as judges and kings of Isreal. Disprove them all. Edited May 18, 2015 by joeb phkrause 1 Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
LifeHiscost Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 The book of Revelation, I believe, is about the future, not the past. 1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.....Revelation 1 Sounds to me like the Revelation is about past, present and future. God is Love! Jesus saves! phkrause 1 Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Robert Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 (edited) Huh? So you deny the plain word of God. War means war, right? Who was hurt? Can you show me one text that states anyone was hurt or mortally wounded in heaven? No, you can't! Why should I give you examples of war that God said to engage in when you know there are many examples already? In addition to Moses and Abraham there are others such as judges and kings of Isreal. Disprove them all. Waiting... Edited May 18, 2015 by Robert Quote
Steven Chavez Posted May 19, 2015 Posted May 19, 2015 Yo, people, chill! If your coming to an open theological board and expecting political correctness.... Get off the theology board. This is an opinion.... OPINION PEOPLE!!! . In regard to my past statements, I believe that pacifism is just an excuse to hide and pretend that we can use the "love your neighbor" verse to not have to preform our God given responsibility to protect innocence and the very life He gave us. I hate to tell you people, but if a guy breaks into my house, I'm not going to ask him if he's going to hurt me and my family, or if he's just going to rob me and leave me in peace. He's going to get a face full of double ought buck shot in the face. What would you do if you had the opportunity to stop your wife being raped? Your little sister? A defenseless old man being beat to death by some punks? A kidnapping in the process? Would all of you people stand idle? If so I'm disgusted! Shame on you! I know in my heart and I believe most of you do to that God expects us to do SOMETHING! If he doesn't, than what should we do? Turn a blind eye to the hundreds of girls being sold as sex slaves within ISIS? The execution of the Kurdish Christians? I want some honest answers. Pray before you answer, as I have. Quote
Robert Posted May 19, 2015 Posted May 19, 2015 (edited) Yo, people, chill! If your coming to an open theological board and expecting political correctness.... Get off the theology board. This is an opinion.... OPINION PEOPLE!!! . In regard to my past statements, I believe that pacifism is just an excuse to hide and pretend that we can use the "love your neighbor" verse to not have to preform our God given responsibility to protect innocence and the very life He gave us. I hate to tell you people, but if a guy breaks into my house, I'm not going to ask him if he's going to hurt me and my family, or if he's just going to rob me and leave me in peace. He's going to get a face full of double ought buck shot in the face. What would you do if you had the opportunity to stop your wife being raped? Your little sister? A defenseless old man being beat to death by some punks? A kidnapping in the process? Would all of you people stand idle? If so I'm disgusted! Shame on you! I know in my heart and I believe most of you do to that God expects us to do SOMETHING! If he doesn't, than what should we do? Turn a blind eye to the hundreds of girls being sold as sex slaves within ISIS? The execution of the Kurdish Christians? I want some honest answers. Pray before you answer, as I have. Matt 2:16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: 18 "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more." What did God do when Herod had all male infants two and under slaughtered while trying to murder Christ as a infant? Did He stop these murderers? Edited May 19, 2015 by Robert Quote
Members phkrause Posted May 19, 2015 Members Posted May 19, 2015 Sounds to me like the Revelation is about past, present and future. Exactly LHC Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Steven Chavez Posted May 19, 2015 Posted May 19, 2015 Yes he did, Herod died a sad miserable death. Justice was done. The Roman where killed in Pompeii and destroyed by people just as was prophesied in the old testament. You still haven't answered my question. What would YOU do if your wife/family/innocent was endangered and the only option was to kill or let them kill the innocent. Matt 2:16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: 18 "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more." What did God do when Herod had all male infants two and under slaughtered while trying to murder Christ as a infant? Did He stop these murderer Quote
Steven Chavez Posted May 19, 2015 Posted May 19, 2015 There is also genocide in the bible deemed righteous by God. What about utterly destroying the enemy as David and Solomon did? If the bible says not to kill in the commandments, what if the other 9? Was there a time the Lord ever has instructed us to break any of them? How about worshiping other gods? How about committing adultery? Did He instruct us to covet our neighbor's goods? I'm thinking you all agree with a big resounding NO!!! So why then would he instruct us to kill in so many parts of the bible, to defend ourselves against peoples that oppose us? To utterly destroy them? Was he telling us that the law doesn't matter? No, the bible says not to murder, this verse and the the commandments use two different words in Hebrew. This meaning just plain killing, the other meaning to kill in hate. Quote
joeb Posted May 19, 2015 Posted May 19, 2015 War means war, right? Who was hurt? Can you show me one text that states anyone was hurt or mortally wounded in heaven? No, you can't! Waiting... Still questioning the plain word of the Bible.... Just like you question Paul when he said Abraham was justified when he believed. The plain word you make complex and twist it until the words are meaningless. That's exactly how the Jews of old acted. So long, Robert. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
joeb Posted May 19, 2015 Posted May 19, 2015 Yo, people, chill! If your coming to an open theological board and expecting political correctness.... Get off the theology board. This is an opinion.... OPINION PEOPLE!!! . In regard to my past statements, I believe that pacifism is just an excuse to hide and pretend that we can use the "love your neighbor" verse to not have to preform our God given responsibility to protect innocence and the very life He gave us. I hate to tell you people, but if a guy breaks into my house, I'm not going to ask him if he's going to hurt me and my family, or if he's just going to rob me and leave me in peace. He's going to get a face full of double ought buck shot in the face. What would you do if you had the opportunity to stop your wife being raped? Your little sister? A defenseless old man being beat to death by some punks? A kidnapping in the process? Would all of you people stand idle? If so I'm disgusted! Shame on you! I know in my heart and I believe most of you do to that God expects us to do SOMETHING! If he doesn't, than what should we do? Turn a blind eye to the hundreds of girls being sold as sex slaves within ISIS? The execution of the Kurdish Christians? I want some honest answers. Pray before you answer, as I have. What you're seeing here is the culmination, sometimes, of years of interaction. Sometimes patience just runs thin after being answered with obfuscation after obfuscation. You'll soon see who will answer you honestly and who won't. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
Steven Chavez Posted May 19, 2015 Posted May 19, 2015 What you're seeing here is the culmination, sometimes, of years of interaction. Sometimes patience just runs thin after being answered with obfuscation after obfuscation. You'll soon see who will answer you honestly and who won't. Thank you for the kind words Quote
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