California Earthquake

[Gregory Matthews]

JimTC:  You, if I understand you, call the Desire of Ages the best book, on the life of Christ, that has been written on this planet.

 

ARE you aware of the large amount of material that were copied from other books and became a part of The Desire of Ages?

 

What do you think of ghose books?

 

 

[JimTN]

Sister White wrote her books in her day and time like other authors wrote their books -- and today's modern rules of copyright were not in existence in the 1800's -- and anyway, since God owns EVERYTHING on this planet, I've always been fine with Sister White "borrowing" things from other authors back there in the 1800's.  It seems that it was a common practice, all authors back then seem to have done it, and it would have been necessary for a person like Sister White who never had an advanced school education.  So if God impressed her to copy certain things, I'm totally fine with it.  Doesn't bother me a bit, because I prefer to focus on the Big Truths -- mainly it seems that she took things of a historical nature to insert into The Great Controversy (not into The Desire of Ages) -- so a person can pay attention to being distracted by petty things like whether or not she got all those boring historical facts correct, or pay attention to the *Big Picture* of the flow of history as it relates to God's Cosmic Awesome Plan of Salvation.  Every book on the planet is going to burn one day anyway, and arguing about who wrote what is just a petty legalistic time-wasting distraction in my opinion.

 

Some of these points of contention I just won't bother with because Sister White is no longer alive and I cannot go knock on her door and ask her about what she wrote here and there.  The Desire of Ages *IS* the best book on the life of Christ ever written -- period!  Not a single book on Jesus written by a non-Sabbath keeper can explain the importance of the 7th day Sabbath as it relates to Jesus or the Bible -- if people listen to and/or read any of the Sunday-keeping preachers in the world, they all fall short -- they lack the Truth -- so again I say that The Desire of Ages is the best book ever written about the life of Christ. 

 

If Jesus drank alcoholic wine, He still never drank enough to loose control or sin.

 

So I guess as long as the Napa wineries post labels on their wine bottles saying, "Please drink in moderation" and ask people just to have one glass with their meals, I guess we can say that they are all witnessing for Jesus just fine!  

 

Yeah right......

[LifeHiscost]

[Gregory Matthews]

Jim:  I find it interesting that you went into a discussion of EGWs use of material that was written by other people and copyright law.  I did not bring that subject up.  You did.  O.K.  I do not have a problem with copyright law and EGW.  Copyright law did not exist in her day as it does today, as you said.

 

But, you said something that interests me more than the issue of copyright. 

 

You tell us that she took, mainly things of historical nature and placed them into The Great Controversy.  That is only a partial truth.  It is true that she did place historical material into The Great Controversy that had been written by other people. 

 

But, it is NOT t rue that she did not place material written by others into The Desire of Ages.  It looks to me like you have no idea as to the amount of material in the Desire of Ages that came from other written material.

 

On another point, it is now known that material written by others was often selected, not by EGW, but by people whom she employed to do such.  Yes, she approved of this material being inserted into her printed materials.  But much of it was selected by others.

 

You refer to being distracted by petty things.  O.K.  Well, is the issue of  the wedding feast and water to wine/grape juice a petty thing or part of the Big Picture?  you tell me.  

 

By the way, are you aware of the historical errors that first existed in The Great Controversy, due to material inserted into it that came from other writers?  Are you aware that during her lifetime, EGW removed such material from succeeding publication of The Great Controversy?   My friend,  EGW said herself that she was not infallible.  If you read the pages I recommended to you in 1 SM, you would have read that.  It now appears that just as she was fallible, so also material that came from other sources was not infallible. 

 

Jim, you have given me a lot to be concerned about in your response.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Jim, I acknowledge your sarcasm in your statement related to the Napa producers of wine witnessing for Christ.

 

 

[JimTN]

If I were trying to get a job working at, say, the White Estate, maybe then I would feel it my responsibility to analyze each and every thing that Sister White ever wrote, edited, and published -- but there is not enough Time on this planet for me to do so, which is why I said I won't get overly caught up in the petty things.  And she is no longer alive, so I cannot go to the source and ask her.  If you can put together a short list of things that have been "borrowed" and put into The Desire of Ages, I would be willing to look at them.  But I'm willing to bet that none of them really pertain to anything drastic or major... 

 

Lots of people in this church get caught up in trying to understand literally "everything" about prophecy and the Book of Revelation, and they loose sight of the important simple basic things -- being overly caught up in "straining at gnats" can be totally distracting and detrimental to one's spiritual growth. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Jim:  I do not have a problem with EGW using material from other people.  I accept EGW as being used by God to guide the developing SDA denomination. What I have a problem with is you making false statements about her.  NOTE:  I do not believe that you do this intentionally.  I believe you simply do it through ignorance.  That is where I have an additional problem. You come across to me as not having studied her writings and ministry in depth. 

 

As to the Desire of Ages:  Dr. Fred Veltman spent 8 years in a study financed by the General  Conference and the EGW Estate.  His report, which I have, consists, as I recall, of more than 1,000 pages.  HIs report dwelt solely with The Desire of Ages.  It did not consider any other publication.  You tell us that you will consider a short list.  You can not shorten Dr. Veltman's listing into a short list.  You cannot logically suggest that his 8-year study was brief and not comprehensive.  As his study, which was full-time (he did not do it in his spare time) and denominationally financed you can not tell us that Dr. Veltman was some crackpot enemy of EGW.  And you have not done any of this.  But, it appears that you are no informed as to the results of his study.

 

To read his results, one should read what he said.  Any summation of his results is incomplete.  However, I shall attempt to sum them.  He found that The Desire of Ages had a 31% verbal similarity to  material written by someone else and published in other works.  Some of this was direct quotes.  Some of it was not.

 

Dr. Veltman concluded that EGW was NOT a plagiarist and I agree with that conclusion.

 

In any case, your prior statements as to the amount of material included in The Desire of Ages is simply wrong.

[JimTN]

I'm vaguely remember something about Sister White taking things from some book called "The Life of Paul" or something like it -- and when she took things, yes, she re-wrote them -- which again was A-OK to do back in her day!  Truth is Truth, and God lead her to that book -- a book that is "owned" by the God who owns EVERYTHING in the Universe -- the only thing we should be concerned with is that the resulting book The Desire of Ages contains *GOD'S TRUTH*!

 

I studied all this back after I joined the church in 1984 -- and then by the mid-1990's I made my mind up to quit worrying about it and put it out of my mind.  That's why I may not recall all the details, I've moved on to just focusing on the Basic Truths and refused to get sidelined by "petty details" since we can't sit down and talk with Ellen in person.... 

[Gregory Matthews]

Jim, my concern ils not with where you are  on the issue of copied material.  My concern is when, probably due to your lack of interest in the facts, you make statements that are wrong.

 

If you area not concerned about copied material in The Desire of Ages, then do not comment upon it, unless you have studied it enough to know that your comment is correct.

[LifeHiscost]

 

Dear Jim,

 

I've spent the last 40 years agreeing with God about His choice as to Who He wanted to use to help His children in these last days, to prepare His chosen for the last days. I find this verse, a rhetorical question, very appropriate in calming my fears about losing any touch God was willing to give me for substantial stability in a world gone over the edge.

 

Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but He revealeth His secrets unto His servants the prophets. Amos 3:7 KJV

 

I'm past the point of worrying about whether she will do for me what God wants her to do for me. Where ever I've followed her advice as if she were relaying His instructions to me, I've benefited, and in the long haul immensly so.

This also seems appropriate for those who would like to shake my own faith in her integtrity and usefulness as the Lord's servant.

 

"If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead" Luke 16:31

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[bonnie]

 

 

Just asking , Assuming that Jesus did produce fermented wine for the celebration,would He produce something that was not conducive to healthful living? 

Will there be alcoholic beverages in heaven produced by Jesus? If not why not?

In the past a couple of members of C/A have stated they can see having a "beer" with Jesus in heaven. Will we sit at the feet of Jesus with a alcoholic beverage in our hand,provided by Jesus?

[Tom Wetmore]

Well, Bonnie, he also cooked fish for the disciples and ate with them down by the sea of Galilee and again ate fish in the upper room where the disciples were when he appeared to them after his resurrection to show them he was a real flesh and blood man. Fish is relatively healthy meat, but flesh food nontheless. The last supper, the passover supper included lamb, a very fatty meat which doesn't exude healthful living.   And the cup of wine passed around that table of which they all drank - not very likely freshly squeezed grape juice either.  And on the cross he took a sip of the sour wine mixed with an herbal painkiller they offered him.    Was Paul wrong to suggest to Timothy to have a little wine to settle his stomach?  I seriously doubt heaven will have fermented beverages. But within the realm of possibilities, since we are all forced to speculate on that, I would say that if it does, it will be the best possible and not at all harmful to us.  All the positive and good of it, with the harmful aspects removed, neutralized , just like us.  And  maybe our resurrected bodies will be able to properly assimilate and use alcohol as fuel.  And maybe heaven will have a jazz music festival and railroad trains and talking dogs...  Lovely to speculate and let our minds run wild, even without being under the influence....

 

But once again, since you also apparently did not read what I said in its entirety, I am not advocating drinking alcoholic beverages of any sort.  What I am saying is that you will fail if you are attempting to use Scripture, including the account of Jesus' life here on earth, as proof that drinking alcohol in any amount is a sin or that one must totally abstain from drinking alcohol to be right with God.  Let's use more contemporary medical and scientific resources, of which there are plenty to advocate healthful living without burdening everyone with more weight of guilt that anything unhealthy is a sin, making it a moral issue on which our very salvation depends.  It is about healthful living, not moral living.  With that in mind it is not really an issue then if Jesus partook of what we now recognize as not optimally healthy food and drink or prepared some for others.  He wasn't sinning nor causing others to sin by doing so.  

[bonnie]

Well, Bonnie, he also cooked fish for the disciples and ate with them down by the sea of Galilee and again ate fish in the upper room where the disciples were when he appeared to them after his resurrection to show them he was a real flesh and blood man. Fish is relatively healthy meat, but flesh food nontheless. The last supper, the passover supper included lamb, a very fatty meat which doesn't exude healthful living.  

 

 And the cup of wine passed around that table of which they all drank - not very likely freshly squeezed grape juice either.

We were given permission to eat certain clean meats.I doubt if you can show me where  He had a pork chop or two. So following the example Jesus set,when we have  communion would there be anything wrong with having wine instead of grape juice?

 

 

 

 I seriously doubt heaven will have fermented beverages.

Why not? Jesus started His earthly ministry with the miracle of producing fermented wine from water for a party.

But once again, since you also apparently did not read what I said in its entirety, I am not advocating drinking alcoholic beverages of any sort.  What I am saying is that you will fail if you are attempting to use Scripture, including the account of Jesus' life here on earth, as proof that drinking alcohol in any amount is a sin or that one must totally abstain from drinking alcohol to be right with God.  Let's use more contemporary medical and scientific resources, of which there are plenty to advocate healthful living without burdening everyone with more weight of guilt that anything unhealthy is a sin, making it a moral issue on which our very salvation depends.  It is about healthful living, not moral living.  With that in mind it is not really an issue then if Jesus partook of what we now recognize as not optimally healthy food and drink or prepared some for others.  He wasn't sinning nor causing others to sin by doing so.  

Wrong,I read every word you posted,nor did I suggest you were advocating drinking alcoholic beverages. I simply asked a couple of questions.

I have a hard time believing that Jesus provided fermented wine because He lacked the contemporary and scientific resources we have today..

That would lead me to believe there isn't any reason to avoid alcoholic beverages with moderation. 

[JimTN]

Jim, you have given me a lot to be concerned about in your response.

 

Let see here just what I said that could be so awful.... I basically said that Sister White included "copied" material into The Great Controversy, but not The Desire of Ages..... and you wrote about how >>Dr. Fred Veltman spent 8 years in a study financed by the General  Conference and the EGW Estate.  His report, which I have, consists, as I recall, of more than 1,000 pages.  HIs report dwelt solely with The Desire of Ages.<<

 

OK, where was this 1,000+ page report published?  

 

When was it published?  

 

What I'm getting at is would I have ever been able to SEE IT back there in the late 1980's or early 1990's?

 

Was it published as a book?  

 

Was it published on the Internet?  

 

I don't think I ever owned a computer until 1995 or so (back when the SDA church had the Compuserve Forum going, which at first was just for the church leaders, then they let others join in).....

 

If Dr. Veltman's analysis of The Desire of Ages was not published in some way that I could have seen it back then, then you cannot hold me "guilty" of making a "false statement" about Sister White and her writings!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

[re:]  >>Dr. Fred Veltman spent 8 years in a study financed by the General  Conference and the EGW Estate.  His report, which I have, consists, as I recall, of more than 1,000 pages.  HIs report dwelt solely with The Desire of Ages.<<

 

OK, where was this 1,000+ page report published?  

 

When was it published?  

 

What I'm getting at is would I have ever been able to SEE IT back there in the late 1980's or early 1990's?

 

I don't think I ever owned a computer until 1995 or so (back when the SDA church had the Compuserve Forum going, which at first was just for the church leaders, then they let other s join in).....

 

If Dr. Veltman's analysis of The Desire of Ages was not published in some way that I could have seen it back then, then you cannot hold me "guilty" of making a "false statement" about Sister White and her writings!

 

Dr Veltman's summary was published in Ministry magazine in October 1990.  In printed format.  In English.  Available in Tennessee.    

 

http://docs.adventistarchives.org/docs/MIN/MIN19901001-V63-10__B.pdf

[Gregory Matthews]

Pam, again you have made a major contribution to this forum.  The article that you referenced was Part 1.  Can you provide us with a Part 2 reference?

 

Now, to respond to Jim:   Pam's cited article above states that Dr. Veltman's work total 2,561 pages.  That work was placed on the Internet by the General Conference.  However, it was buried in a manner that made it hard to find by anyone looking for it.  I accessed it there, downloaded it and printed it off.  One of the interesting things about that document is that it was put into digital text by what I considered to be an uncommon computer program.  In order to read the document and/or print it off in a readable manner, one had to access a software program that translated the digital file into a readable format.  The website where the General Conference had placed this document provided free access to the program required to place the document into readable form.

 

The document placed in the file was not paged from page 1 to page 2561.  Rather, it was paged in a number of sections, each of which was several hundred pages long.  This made it hard to quote and cite a reference.

 

From the background of what I have stated here, probably Pam's citations are most easily available.  They probably will do well as a summary.  However, a summation of probably less than 100 pages simply leaves out a lot of a 2,561 page document.

 

The work that Dr. Veltman did was massive, scholarly and comprehensive--as it pertained to The Desire of Ages, but not to other works.

 

If I can locate an Internet source for that document, I will post it.

 

It should be noted that Dr. Veltman's study only covered 15 chapters in The Desire of ages.   In his work, he studied some 500 publications that were potentially available to BGW.   But, those 500 works did not comprise the total amount available to her. 

 

The General  Conference spent more than $125,000 in financing this project.  Dr. Veltman finished his work  by 1988--not an exact figure.

[JimTN]

Thank you for posting that link -- and this is the 1st time I have ever seen this issue of Ministry. I have heard of the magazine, and I've seen some of the issues -- but I never subscribed to it. Not only have I been "poor" most of my life, but when Ministry ran that color cover of a "New Age" half-naked Christ I was a tad offended and sort of decided I wasn't going to pay any attention to that type of garbage...

As mentioned in the article, most Adventists have only been aware of the copying that went into The Great Controversy -- so it seems that I was (and maybe still am) in the company of the "majority" of SDAs!

It's interesting to read of how The Desire of Ages was put together -- but this article is merely 5 pages of reporting, NOT the 1,000+ pages of evidence.

As stated earlier, the book was written JUST LIKE OTHER BOOKS OF ITS TIME -- and I have no problem whatsoever with Sister White using other books to aid her in writing clearly a masterpiece that probably far surpassed any of those other books!

God lead her to those books, and God guided her as she used them to write The Desire of Ages! Praise the Lord!

So I don't see where I committed any big "crime" here by not being aware of her copying -- by any chance am I in trouble for saying that God should have corrected her (but didn't) in regard to her writing that the wine Jesus made at the wedding was the pure juice of the grapes? It seems I was reprimanded for it, and how Sister White often wrote things that were "just her opinion" and not inspired directly from God... which I've also known about...

So what's going on here?

What's the big crime I've committed, eh?

[Stan]

Actually there has been a lot of vindication of the claims against her over the past few years.  It has really become a non issue

[Gregory Matthews]

Jim:  I am attempting to find the document on the Internet.  Right now I am searching  adventistarchives.org    to see if it is there.

 

You ask:  What is your big crime?

 

I do not call it a crime.  However, you made a definitive statement that limited the material in the EGW writings primarily to The Great Controversy and went on to say that The Desire of Ages was not included.  That statement was in error.

 

I do not consider your statement to be anything more than ignorance.  However, in the years since Veltman  published his work in 1988 much more information has become available and published in a number of reputable books and other publications about this issue.  People who are interested in the development of the SDA Church and the ministry of EGW are well aware of these issues.  This is of such common knowledge that I could not allow your statement to stand.  You were simply wrong, not dishonest. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Stan,. as you have said, I consider it to be a non-issue.

 

Howeer, it is still an issue with some SDAs and with non-SDAs who hear of this.

 

In response to them I believe that they accurate facts.   I believe that the work of Dr. Veltman goes a long way in settleling the issue.  We do not have anything to fear from the truth.   We have much more to fear from falsehood, even when made by honest people in ignorance.

[Stan]

Seems to me a djconklin did a lot of research and vindication.. Robert Pickel did a book in response to some of the claims by a former SDA Clergy...

[Gregory Matthews]

I have found the full document.  It is in the digital format of .djvu  The GC Archives provide you with a plugin that enables you to read the djvu format.  You will not be able to read it without that plugin.

 

You may find it at:

 

http://docs.adventistarchives.org/documents.asp?catID=sortby=1&showdateorder=true

 

In short the full document is available to anyone who wants to go to the work to access it.

 

To read the full URL above read each of the following and place them together:

 

https://docs.adventistarchives.org

 

/documents.asp?calld=

 

sortby=1&showdateorder=true

[Gregory Matthews]

Stan, yes, others have  written books on this issue.  Some of them well done, others not.  But, in any case, no one has ever approached the depth of Dr. Veltman and no one has ever done such a comprehensive job, even though in 8 years, he only looked at 15 chapter of The Desire of Ages.  HE sets the gold standard for this issue.   Anyone who studies this issue must consider Veltman's work.

[JimTN]

Well, this sort of is an example of what I said I like to avoid -- I appreciate hearing about the work Dr. Veltman did, and I really do have a teachable spirit, I'm glad to finally learn it -- but seeing that this material never really surfaced to be a major announcement throughout Adventism, that proves that it is "secondary" to the trully IMPORTANT things that I wish to occupy my mind with! I won't call it "petty," because it has its importance -- but it is way too time-consuming (the idea that anyone should wade through 2,561 pages of this stuff is NUTS), and at its core it is "argumentative" (good grief, I'm going to force 2,561 pages on my brain cells to figure out if Ellen was "guilty" or not guilty??)...

Yeah, it's great that someone did it -- but I really don't want to waste too much of my time on this.

I already know the verdict -- she was inspired and wrote the best book on the planet about Jesus!

People need to pay attention to what is *IN* the book, and not get overly caught up in worrying how it got there.

[phkrause]

 

 

 

Just asking , Assuming that Jesus did produce fermented wine for the celebration,would He produce something that was not conducive to healthful living? 

Will there be alcoholic beverages in heaven produced by Jesus? If not why not?

In the past a couple of members of C/A have stated they can see having a "beer" with Jesus in heaven. Will we sit at the feet of Jesus with a alcoholic beverage in our hand,provided by Jesus?

I personally don't believe he produced fermented wine at the celebration or wedding. For the exact reason that you bring up! "Healthful Living." I also don't believe that alcohol will be served in heaven!! For the same reason.