Church of Satan- Where do we draw the line?

[Joe_in_RP]

Satanic churches are growing. The newest one in Detroit is one example: http://www.metrotimes.com/Blogs/archives/2014/09/05/the-satanic-temple-will-build-its-first-chapter-house-in-detroit

 

As a Christian nation, what is our responsibility, if anything,  to do about the growth of Satanic churches?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

**snort**

 

the Satanic Temple of Detroit sounds more like a fluffy bunny group of activists who use the "Satanic" name and image for "shock" appeal to get a reaction from people, rather than for any meaningful relationship to Satan..

 

the "Satanic churches" to worry about are *not* the ones that are seen, are loud and are obnoxious; rather, the ones that are *under* the radar are the dangerous ones... most Christians will not have a clue that they are around..  

[Joe_in_RP]

A satanic church in Oklahoma, Is going to hold an exorcism. Not to exercise the devil out of someone, like to exercise the Holy Spirit out of someone.

 

These churches are very real and growing.  As a Christian nation what is our responsibility?

 

As we study the Bible, we see many places where these false worship systems corrupted people. The leaders, Kings were responsible to remove these places.

 

What about now?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

the Holy Spirit cannot be exorcised out of a believer by invoking Satan's powers.

 

Certainly, the "church of Satan" is around... it's been around for years.

 

 We do not live in a theocracy now.  It is not up to Christianity to "remove" people or systems that they see as corrupt, no matter how well-meaning that might be, as long as no laws of the land are being broken.

 

that's my 2¢

[Gregory Matthews]

Joe, you ask what is our responsibility as a Christian nation.  Well, some of us would argue that we are no longer a Christian nation.  In any case, as to our responsibility as a Christian nation, that could have  two (2) aspects:  A nation is composed of people.  Those people may have an individual responsibility.  A Biblical responsibility, as  individuals, may be to proclaim God's truth and depend upon the Holy Spirit.

 

Our responsibility as a nation may be summed up in the 1st Amendment to the Federal Constitution.  That simply says that the government will not give preference to any religion over other religions.  Once it is decided that Satanism is a religion, under the Constitution, it must be  treated on the same basis as other religions.  That is it in a nutshell.

 

Did you  actually read the entire article?  Did you notice that the article stated that the members did not worship Satan as an actual being.  Under Federal law, a religion is not required to  worship an actual being.  So, my point is not that the group is not actually a religion.  I am willing to state that it probably is a religion.  Rather, my point is that one can ask whether or not it is actually a Satanic religion.  That question is valid on a personal basis, even though it is probably not a valid question for the Federal government which is very limited as to it ability to investigate the beliefs of a religion.

 

It should be noted that so-called Satanic religions exist is very different forms with   quite differing sets of beliefs.  Those who follow Anton LeVey differ quite a bit from those who do not follow him.

[Gregory Matthews]

Pam, your 2 cents is actually worth 5 cents.  Do not underestimate yourself.  You are correct.

 

 

[Joe_in_RP]

 

A Biblical responsibility, as  individuals, may be to proclaim God's truth and depend upon the Holy Spirit.

 

May?

Do we have a biblical responsibility as individuals or not?

What about as a church?

What about as a local congregation?

What about as a nation?

 

And I come back to my original question. Where do we draw the line? You seem to be implying we never draw the line.

Which is what I used to believe. I used to believe that because of the First Amendment we never draw the line. But now I have questions about that.

So is there a point, in which we have to draw the line?

 

There is a private club in California, where someone has snuck in and videotaped a mock human sacrifice being offered to a large idol. There are reports that that may not be a mock sacrifice.

 

Last month, two individuals were arrested in Canada for planning a child sacrifice.

 

So now I come back and ask you again, because these people don't seem to have limits. We have limits, our friends have limits, but these people don't seem to have limits.

 

There are a large amount of rumors, about Satanic worship services sacrificing animals and in some cases children. I don't know they are true. But based on those two examples I gave above, I am beginning to wonder if they might be true.

 

Which brings us back to all these questions I have. Where do we draw the line, and what is our responsibility.

[Gregory Matthews]

Joe:  My thesis was that the responsibility of the individual was different from that of the government.  The individuals  responsibility is governed by the Bible.  The responsibility of the government, in this case, is governed by the 1st Amendment to the Federal Constitution.  Those are different.

 

Joe, sometimes I write in a dogmatic manner which turns people off.  Sometimes I write in a less dogmatic manner.  Don't get hung up on my use of the word "may." 

 

I moderate this section.  As such I have considerable powers to control what is posted here.  Since I Moderate here, I attempt to be less dogmatic than I sometimes am so that people who disagree with me may feel free to post here.

[Joe_in_RP]

Satanic Temple to distribute materials to school children in Florida

 

http://rt.com/usa/188148-satanic-temple-materials-schools/

[Gregory Matthews]

Satanic Temple to distribute materials to school children in Florida

 

http://rt.com/usa/188148-satanic-temple-materials-schools/

 

 

Earlier this month, the school system made a decision to let any religious and atheist materials be provided in schools.

 

 

Joe, here is the issue:  The School Board decided to allow religious materials to be distributed to school childre.  So, it cannot now discriminate.  It has to   treat all equally and without preference.

 

The School Board could have said:  "No distribution of any materials allowed."  That could have been legally sustainable.  But, it chose not to do such.  So, it opened the door to such materials to be distributed.

[LifeHiscost]

Joe:  My thesis was that the responsibility of the individual was different from that of the government.  The individuals  responsibility is governed by the Bible.  The responsibility of the government, in this case, is governed by the 1st Amendment to the Federal Constitution.

How does that square with this?

 

1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. Romans 13:1-2 

 

I would like to suggest that just as the Israelites chose an earthly king, over direct rule by God through the prophets, so mankind in general and the U.S. in particular will receive the just outcome of their own foolish avoidance of the just Ruler of the universe.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!      

[LifeHiscost]

 

Which brings us back to all these questions I have. Where do we draw the line, and what is our responsibility.

When I'm concerned about my personal responsibility, this serves to be my best Guide if I can tell there is a difference.

 

"We must obey God rather than men." Acts 5:29    Soon we will be asked to serve man's injunctions on penalty of death. Whether we know or not one way or the other will be largely based on our knowledge of the Word's promises. As one person said, "We have two lions in us. The lion we feed is the Lion Who will come out strongest.

 

Lion of Judah="Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome...."

 

roaring lion=   Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walking about, seeking whom he may devour.   1Pet 5:8

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Joe_in_RP]

Gregory

I understand your position. There are many who think American Christians are under attack.

I can look down the road, and see that if this is allowed to continue, on a national scale, it's going to be a big problem.

It's possible that it's a big problem already. There may be far more this going on than what's being reported in the media.

From a practical standpoint, I suspect people like you, may want to change your opinion, after a period of time.

All over the world we see places where a rival faction, will start to attack and kill people. Many first world countries have historically denounced such organizations. They have sent soldiers to stop such organizations. They recognize if this evil was allowed to continue many people would die, so they took action to prevent this.

I am told, that the problem with a war, on peaceful loving people, is that they are very slow to realize the seriousness or the danger that the enemy forces present.

By the time they recognize the danger, many people have lost their life. There are many casualties.

I don't have all the answers, but I can look to the future and see where this is going. I'm pretty sure that inaction is not the right choice.

Which brings me back around to this question I am struggling with, where do we draw the line?

[Gregory Matthews]

Joe, what you suggest, in my opinion, is setting the SDA church up for becoming the focus of  such attacks.

 

Yes, we may believe that such will eventually happen.  I do not want to be engaging in activities that bring the about earlier than it otherwise would happen.

[JoeMo]

I'm with both Pam and Gregory with this.  It's not the satanic churches that the media follows that are a concern; it's the ones we don't hear about.  The first amendment states the government will neither inhibit nor encourage the establishment of any religion.

 

You want to do something?  Pray that God manifest Himself is a direct and powerful way to these people; and vanquish the evil spirit within them.  This is a war; but it's a war against spiritual powers and principalities - not a war against other people. Spiritual wars are won or lost by spiritual attack.  That being said, be careful what you ask for. Forces of evil can fight back.

[pierrepaul]

There is always a line drawn in 1st amendment free exercise issues. Many years ago leaders of the Church of the Most High Goddess were convicted on prostitution charges and their 1st amendment free exercise arguments failed to persuade the courts. Most attempts to cover narcotics use under free exercise protection have failed. For more than a century polygamy has failed to be protected under the free exercise clause (this may change in the next decade or so). I doubt ritual animal sacrifice would get free exercise protection. The free exercise clause will not exempt you from income taxes. For the "free exercise of religion" concept to have any meaning, one must first circumscribe the concept of "religion". This very act of defining for constitutional purposes what is and is not religion, will perforce have the effect of excluding certain belief systems from the ambit of "religion".

 

Also keep in mind that when the 1st amendment was adopted, it was only to restrict the powers of Congress to legislate in the field of religion. It was contemplated that the states would remain competent to legislate in the field of morality and to regulate religious practice within their borders. The "bill of rights" was drafted in absolute language because it was never intented to create a class of issues over which no public body could legislate. The states retained plenary "police" powers. There was no doubt in the 1790s that the federal Congress would be powerless to forbid satanism, spiritualism, witchcraft, polygamy, ritual animal sacrifice, ritual prostitution, forced marriage, honour killings or even human sacrifice. This caused no concern for them, as the states laboured under no such restrictions, and thus no constitutional "hole" was created where no governmental authority could act.

 

As expected, state legislation was often repressive and did not respect human rights - the most egregious example being legal slavery. While smaller bodies politic tend to be more responsive to local needs and conditions than the distant federal authority, small local bodies more easily fall into the hands of kooks and nuts. It took the secession crisis, civil war, recontruction, the 13th, 14th and 5th amendments and revived judicial activism circa 1920-1950 to "incorporate" the bill of rights against the individual states under the 14th amendment due process clause. Until then the civil war amendments were understood only to protect the rights of a US citizen qua citizen, thus forbidding slavery. Beyond that, the states retained all their pre-civil war powers, including the right to regulate the press and to legislate in the field of religion.

[Gregory Matthews]

Pierrepaul:  There is much of value in what you posted.

[LifeHiscost]

Satanic churches are growing. The newest one in Detroit is one example: http://www.metrotimes.com/Blogs/archives/2014/09/05/the-satanic-temple-will-build-its-first-chapter-house-in-detroit

 

As a Christian nation, what is our responsibility, if anything,  to do about the growth of Satanic churches?

This also seems he, the accuser, is very active and rapidly spreading his mayhem.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/police-woman-beheaded-oklahoma-workplace-144459291.html

Police: Woman beheaded at Oklahoma workplace

OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — A man fired from an Oklahoma food processing plant beheaded a woman with a knife and was attacking another worker when he was shot and wounded by a company official, police said Friday.

Associated Press

29"Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 30"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.… Mark 13

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[joeb]

May?

Do we have a biblical responsibility as individuals or not?

What about as a church?

What about as a local congregation?

What about as a nation?

 

And I come back to my original question. Where do we draw the line? You seem to be implying we never draw the line.

Which is what I used to believe. I used to believe that because of the First Amendment we never draw the line. But now I have questions about that.

So is there a point, in which we have to draw the line?

 

There is a private club in California, where someone has snuck in and videotaped a mock human sacrifice being offered to a large idol. There are reports that that may not be a mock sacrifice.

 

Last month, two individuals were arrested in Canada for planning a child sacrifice.

 

So now I come back and ask you again, because these people don't seem to have limits. We have limits, our friends have limits, but these people don't seem to have limits.

 

There are a large amount of rumors, about Satanic worship services sacrificing animals and in some cases children. I don't know they are true. But based on those two examples I gave above, I am beginning to wonder if they might be true.

 

Which brings us back to all these questions I have. Where do we draw the line, and what is our responsibility.

Joe,

 

I would say that we have a responsibility as individuals.  That responsibility is to become as much like Christ as is possible, which to me means becoming as close as possible to Him.  Then we will rightly represent Him in all that we do, and when we do people will see the love of God in us and want to know why we are who we are.   

 

I don't think we as Christians have a right to stop someone from worshiping the devil through legislation, or through force of any kind.  God doesn't do that, so what makes us think we would have a right to do that.  We must respect a person's right to choose to worship whom they will as much as God does.  He draws people to Him through love.  He doesn't use force to make people worship HIm or stop people from worshiping the devil.  Force is what the devil uses to control people, and we can know if he uses it, that God does not.  

[Gregory Matthews]

Joeb:  Amen!

[Joe_in_RP]

I don't think we as Christians have a right to stop someone from worshiping the devil through legislation, or through force of any kind.  God doesn't do that, so what makes us think we would have a right to do that.  We must respect a person's right to choose to worship whom they will as much as God does.

 

 

 

Really

What about this:

 

Bible VersionsNIV2 Kings2 Kings 232 Kings 23:6-16

2 Kings 23:8..16 (New International Version)

 

 

8 Josiah brought all the priests from the towns of Judah and desecrated the high places, from Geba to Beersheba, where the priests had burned incense. He broke down the shrines at the gates--at the entrance to the Gate of Joshua, the city governor, which is on the left of the city gate. 

 

10 He desecrated Topheth which was in the Valley of Ben Hinnom so no one could use it to sacrifice his son or daughter in the fire to Molech.

 

 

15 Even the altar at Bethel, the high place made by Jeroboam son of Nebat, who had caused Israel to sin--even that altar and high place he demolished. He burned the high place and ground it to powder, and burned the Asherah pole also.

 

16 Then Josiah looked around, and when he saw the tombs that were there on the hillside, he had the bones removed from them and burned on the altar to defile it, in accordance with the word of the LORD proclaimed by the man of God who foretold these things.

[Gregory Matthews]

Civil governmnet does have the right to stop people from sacrificing children to any god.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

 

15 Even the altar at Bethel, the high place made by Jeroboam son of Nebat, who had caused Israel to sin--even that altar and high place he demolished. He burned the high place and ground it to powder, and burned the Asherah pole also.

 

 

just a note:   an Asherah pole has nothing to do with human sacrifices

 

[Stan]

Pam, your 2 cents is actually worth 5 cents.  Do not underestimate yourself.  You are correct.

 

 

 

I say at least a quarter...

[Joe_in_RP]

This is why I do not want to post here.  I lay out several Bible texts making the point that God has his people destroy satanic things. There are many additional text I could've used.

Then someone will pick one little part or another, ignoring the whole argument.

If you want to play that way, fine.

But I will not.