Recent Book on the Trinity

[8thdaypriest]

Rachel, I intend to write more in response to your post as I raises a number of issues that deserve a response.  But I felt that I should make an immediate response to your comment that Leroy Froom was a President of the General Conference.  You are in error.  For a complete listing of the 20 persons who have been Presidents of the General Conference of SDAs see the following.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidents_of_the_General_Conference_of_Seventh-day_Adventists

 

If I understand your time-line correctly, at the time you stated that Froom was President, James L. McElhaney was actually President.

 

In your error, you have illustrated an important point:  People who state a factual error may still make valid statements which should be considered.

 

Neither you nor EGW was/is free from error.  The fact that an error is found in something that either of you has written does not negate the value of what you may say.

 

Well,  I intend to have more to say on your post.

Thanks Gregory, 

I dug out the copies of those letters.  Had to get out my magnifying glass to read the headers at the top.  Appears that LeRoy Froom was Secretary of the Ministerial Association at Takoma Park, Washington, when he wrote to Lacey in August and in September of 1945. 

 

I certainly would never claim to be free of error. 

 

Blessings,

Rachel

[8thdaypriest]

Re Gregory's post #49 in this thread.  

Very well written.  I can agree. 

The Bible must be out standard. 

 

The apostles themselves were wrong concerning the nearness of Christ's return.  They all thought it would be very soon, within one generation. 

I don't throw out their writings because they got that one wrong. 

[Gustave]

I have high respect for you also Gregory. 

 

Please could you explain more clearly - WHAT Adventists believe concerning the Trinity. 

 

Am I wrong in thinking that they believe our God is 3 co-equal, co-eternal divine Beings?  One of the 3 incarnated, and at THAT POINT became "the Son of God".  He was NOT "the Son of God" BEFORE He incarnated. 

 

Baptists and Catholics believe that God is ONE divine Being, who manifests as three. 

 

 

Incorrect & heretical theology.

 

John 3,16

For God so loved the world, that he GAVE his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God SENT not his Son INTO the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 

The "Father" was The Father PRIOR to The Son Incarnating into human flesh....

...This is why Scripture speaks OF The Father 'SENDING' His Son INTO the world.

...Which means Christ WAS THE SON BEFORE HE GOT HERE!

...Which defaults that God the Father was God the Father BEFORE He Sent Christ into the World.

 

 

...What you just said above 3 divine Beings which eventually adopted these familial positions explains much.

 

i.e. There is one big shot God - who after Michael the archangel put a meat suit on - then became 'The Father'...

...Because you can't become a father UNTIL you sire offspring.

...& that's what the whole God the Father & God the Son thing mean "in SDA theology".

 

 

NICE! NOT!

[Kevin H]

When Jesus asked "Who do people say that I am" and "Who do you say that I am" Jesus told Simon Peter that he was blessed because it was not flesh and blood that told him, but the spirit.

 

One major truth about God that is often overlooked is his unassuming nature. Jesus does not grab us by our shirt collar and say "Look, this is what you are to believe" and give the reasons to believe. He let his disciples discuss and argue (would try to get them off from arguing who was going to hold which offices in the kingdom of God). Jesus did not say to his disciples "Look, I'm the messiah and let me tell you why!" but like how he did not answer John the Baptist's question directly but just apparently ignored them then said "Tell John all you have seen."

 

When Lucifer began raising questions about God and questioned if God was creator God could have just created the earth suddenly and powerfully in a way that raised no doubt. Instead he created earth but left it without form and void and let the angels and created beings experiment things for themselves, the results ending up chaotic, and they discuss and finally make decisions as to whether to join the rebellion or not. Once this was done and people made a choice based on faith  then God's spirit moved over the void, formless chaos and said "Let there be light!."

 

Ancient Yahwehism had two denominations. One lead by the priesthood of Aaron and was focused on the tabernacle in the middle of the camp and temple, where God could be in the mists of his people. Their worship was very solemn "be still and know that I am God" ritualistic, strong general conference. They put more emphases on the fall holidays, Yom Kippur a day of fasting and prayer. The other lead by the priesthood of Moses and was focused on the tent of the meeting outside of the camp because God was so holy that he would consume the people if he lived among them. Their worship was very lively praising the Lord with harp and tambourine and dance. Less ritual, more focused on the spring feasts and spending the feasts with your family rather than in a house of worship and more congregational with a weak General Conference. Yom Kippur was a day to celebrate that our sins were as far away from us as the east is from the west. This was why King David had two high priests. One was from each denomination. So even here you don't see God with just one set of uniformity, but there were two denominations (and even they were further broken down into northern and southern forms) so God's people still had a flexibility and room to grow. Study the differences and contradictions between Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and the Deuteronomic books and the priestly books. Both had problems and both had strong points and both became our Bible.

 

Also, in the Bible God would explain things to people in terms that they understood, even if we would not consider their views incorrect. God lead the people. Early in the Bible was not the belief in monotheism, but in the belief that Yahweh was the most high God. Later that developed into Yahweh being self existent and the creator of the other gods. This grew into Isaiah realizing that if God was himself the only self existent and the creator of the other gods, then the other gods were not gods at all but parts of creation and Yahweh the only God and thus we got Monotheism. But that grew. Even the doctrine of no human sacrifice grew and you see development of this doctrine in the scriptures. But it did not change by God giving a demand by the prophets, but by the people growing and realizing that it was something that God never intended.

 

The New Testament had the church of Peter, of Paul and of John. Were it not for John holding them together and seeing both as valid, the church would have split between Peter and Paul long ago. Study the differences and contradictions between Mark and Luke.

 

Early Adventists had the trinity as an optional doctrine, and it was a minority doctrine. The majority were not Trinitarian. First of all it was not a point of the early church to be officially anti Trinitarian. Both camps were welcomed, but one was more outspoken. God did not send Mrs. White a vision correcting the mistake. She and James were willing to listen to both sides of the issue. At the end of his life James said that he was starting to find the arguments for the trinity more convincing than the arguments opposed to the trinity. But God lead us and one of the ways God lead us was through allowing us the see the results of our choice. When you don't hold the trinity, you tend to make one aspect of the trinity as God in God's wholeness. In most cases it is God the Father, God as power and authority. When this happens then we tend to become like the one we worship and admire, and when we worship the Father only, we tend to focus on the power and authority. It leaves room for very powerful authoritarian figures in our leadership telling us what to do and what to believe. And the result was that we started preaching the law the law the law until we were as dry as the hills of Gilboah. Unlike other churches which continue in this error and are continuing to have a very strong leadership with the members being told what to do and they have to obey, we realized that this was a problem and that this problem needed a solution. The solution was to change from the God the Father being God in total, to realizing that we needed the trinity. And that was when Mrs. White began guiding us into Trinitarian views.

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel asked about Christ being subject to his Father (God the Father).  That was due to the incarnation.  It was at the Incarnation that Christ became a Son and subject to the Father.

 

The OT verses that speak of the "Son of God" are speaking of the coming relationship of the Incarnation at which time God in the person of Jesus Christ would take on human nature in  reality and become the Son of God the Father and subject to God the Father.

[Gustave]

Rachel asked about Christ being subject to his Father (God the Father).  That was due to the incarnation.  It was at the Incarnation that Christ became a Son and subject to the Father.

 

The OT verses that speak of the "Son of God" are speaking of the coming relationship of the Incarnation at which time God in the person of Jesus Christ would take on human nature in  reality and become the Son of God the Father and subject to God the Father.

 

 

I'm sorry, that's NOT right Gregory...

..The Son was the Son before He got here.

...Because The Father "sent" His Son.

 

You are NOT someplace BEFORE you get there....

...You are also WHO you ARE before you get to where you're going!

 

 

1 John 3,8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

 

"MANIFESTED", according to Strong's means: "to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way".

 

And specifically of a person: "expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear"

 

 

Was Martha a proto Catholic or Eastern Orthodox heretic when she said in John 11, 27:  "Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, WHICH should come into the world".

 

 

1 John 4,10                                                                      

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son [ BREAK ] into the world, that we might live through him.

 

Gal 4, 4

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

 

John 20,21

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

 

1 John 4,14

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

 

 

I think SDA's would be better off if they renounced Ellen White's teaching on the Trinity as heretical...

...If they want they can keep thinking of her as a prophet about their other beliefs but NOT THE TRINITY.

[8thdaypriest]

When I see a command from Scripture that I am to worship the Holy Spirit (as a third divine Being), that's when I will do it. 

 

"The Father and the Son alone are to be exalted"  (Youth's Instructor July 7, 1898).

 

"There is One God, the Father, of Whom are all things,

and One Lord Jesus Christ, through Whom are all things. (I Cor. 8:6).

 

I believe that God - the Father and Source of everything that exists, "is Spirit" (and omnipresent).  He also can appear sitting on a throne.  But he "is One". 

 

I believe that God beget another being out of Himself.  That second Being - that offspring - was exactly like Himself. 

He also was Spirit, but could appear, (which He did in angelic form). 

 

Adventist doctrine teaches that God the Father is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.  So also is the Holy Spirit.  So also was the Son prior to His incarnation.  If One Being is all powerful, all knowing, and everywhere present, then WHY would there need to be another?  Could not that One have done all things?  The answer is no.  He could NOT become a helpless infant, and then sleep in death while at the same time upholding all things.  To create and then to redeem by means of death, there would have to be two divine beings. 

 

When the second being incarnated, He divested Himself of all divine power. 

After He returned to "the Father's right hand", His divine power was restored to Him.

He could then be omnipresent once again - as "the Spirit of Christ", and "Christ in me".

 

Respectfully,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

There is strong indication from mrs. White's writings that she believed Christ was begotten from the Father prior to His human incarnation.  She states that Proverbs 8:22-30 are Christ's own words concerning Himself, His preexistence, and His relation to his Father.  If Christ was literally begotten from God the Father then He has not always existed, in which case God cannot be a Trinity as the word is currently defined by SDAs.  (See PP34, 1SM 247, ST 8/7/97, RH 7/9/95, RH 6/10/90, DA 25, 1SM226.)

 

Proverbs 8:22

"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,  ["In the beginning was the Word."  This WAS "the beginning".]

Before His works of old.

23 I have been established from everlasting,  [The word translated "established" is otherwise translated "pour" or "poured out"].

From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.

24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,  ("brought forth" #02342, which can mean "born")

When there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth;

26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primeval dust of the world.

27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there,

When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,

28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,

29 When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command,

When He marked out the foundations of the earth,

30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;

And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, (NKJ)

 

If these are Christ's words concerning Himself, then we have a time frame indicating that He was "brought forth" BEFORE the creation of this world.

We also have an indication that Christ became the agent of His Father in creation.  From the beginning, He carried out the will of His Father. 

 

If God exists outside of time, and Christ was begotten in eternity - before time existed, then I can agree that the Son of God existed from eternity.

But I would still maintain that He is and always has been - the Son.

And the Father has always been "the head of Christ" and "the God ... of Christ". 

 

And I see no third divine being in this passage.

 

Respectfully,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

 

I realize that this a parody on wisdom.  But Paul (who referenced the OT continually, wrote that Christ became for us "the wisdom of God" and "wisdom from God" (I Co. 1:24 and 1:30).

[8thdaypriest]

"The mystery of the Trinity is the central doctrine of Catholic faith.  Upon it are based all the other teachings of the Church"  (Handbook for Today's Catholic, pg.12).

 

Adventist pioneers J.N. Loughborough, J.N.Andrews, Uriah Smith, George Butler, A.G.Daniells, E.J.Waggoner, M.E.Cornell and in fact almost all of the founding fathers of Adventism rejected the doctrine of a Trinity as pagan in origin.  James White called it a "Romeish doctrine".

 

Now - I guess you could say that their Trinity (of One Being who manifests as three) is not the same as the Adventist Trinity (of three Beings co-existing together),

but in either case - God the Father did NOT give His Son to become human,

because in the Adventist view, He was NOT a son UNTIL He became human. 

 

Respectfully,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Gustave]

"The mystery of the Trinity is the central doctrine of Catholic faith.  Upon it are based all the other teachings of the Church"  (Handbook for Today's Catholic, pg.12).

 

Adventist pioneers J.N. Loughborough, J.N.Andrews, Uriah Smith, George Butler, A.G.Daniells, E.J.Waggoner, M.E.Cornell and in fact almost all of the founding fathers of Adventism rejected the doctrine of a Trinity as pagan in origin.  James White called it a "Romeish doctrine".

 

Now - I guess you could say that their Trinity (of One Being who manifests as three) is not the same as the Adventist Trinity (of three Beings co-existing together),

but in either case - God the Father did NOT give His Son to become human,

because in the Adventist view, He was NOT a son UNTIL He became human. 

 

Respectfully,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

 

On August 7, 1861 Ulysses S. Grant was promoted to the rank of Brigadier General...

...On February 6 of 1862 General Grant leads his men in the capture Fort Henry.

 

Point: Ulysses S. Grant WAS a General  "prior to arriving" at Fort Henry & initiating Military contact with the Confederacy!

 

Under the Arian SDA theological construct Michael the archangel was a "potential Christ", a "Christ in the making"....

...And didn't actually become 'The Christ' until He passed the trials & demonstrated He didn't sin & eternally cease to exist.

...Evidently the same twisted Arian rubric is applied to His familial relationship to God The Father.

 

The "mystery of the Trinity" IS the central Doctrine of ANY Orthodox Christian system.....

...& outside of that there is only heresy.

[8thdaypriest]

Gustave,

 

I believe that Michael (one like unto God) was the name of God's Son, prior to His incarnation into human nature.

 

I believe that He appeared in the form of an angel, in order to represent God to angels. 

 

He did NOT have to "pass any test" before incarnating and taking "the nature of Abraham" (human nature).

 

I believe that Jesus could have sinned - rebelling against the will of His Father - God.

 

The Son of God "emptied Himself" of divine power BEFORE incarnating.  As a human He overcame evil by depending upon the Spirit of His Father. 

 

That is just a statement of my belief. 

 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Ron Amnsn]

The "mystery of the Trinity" IS the central Doctrine of ANY Orthodox Christian system.....

...& outside of that there is only heresy.

 

Where is that "central Doctrine" taught in Scripture?

[Gustave]

Gustave,

 

I believe that Michael (one like unto God) was the name of God's Son, prior to His incarnation into human nature.

 

I believe that He appeared in the form of an angel, in order to represent God to angels. 

 

He did NOT have to "pass any test" before incarnating and taking "the nature of Abraham" (human nature).

 

I believe that Jesus could have sinned - rebelling against the will of His Father - God.

 

The Son of God "emptied Himself" of divine power BEFORE incarnating.  As a human He overcame evil by depending upon the Spirit of His Father. 

 

That is just a statement of my belief. 

 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

 

1) The meaning is: "Who is Like God?"

 

It's a rhetorical question with the answer being "NO ONE IS LIKE GOD"

 

I would like to know where you got your understanding that the name means that Michael "IS LIKE GOD".

 

In any event what you said defaults into Christ WASN'T God...

..Which is EXACTLY the point Arius, James and Ellen White made.

 

2) You misunderstand what I'm affirming & that is, according to Ellen White ( and the entity feeding her information ), that Jesus WASN'T the Christ until He finally became the Christ at the moment of His death on the Cross because at any moment up until then Michael in a meat suit was liable to sin and loose his salvation - which would have resulted in this creature christ eternally ceasing to exist.

 

3) Of course you believe that - because Arius promulgated it and because the entity providing Ellen White with spiritual information promulgated it.

 

4) According to Scripture Christ ETERNALLY had this mind - which is the reason Scripture gives for Christ Incarnating in the first place.