The Apostle Paul and women...

[Ron Lambert]

Let me again quote Genesis 3:6, 7: "She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. THEN the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked;" (NIV)

Some things it is important to note: Their eyes were not opened (signifying loss of innocence) until ADAM ate. The text does not say that Eve's eyes were opened after she ate; but only after Adam ate. The eyes of both of them were opened after Adam ate. We are not guessing about anything here. This is what the text says.

There is one thing in the text that sometimes throws some people. It says that Eve gave some of the fruit to Adam "with her." Some people jump to the conclusion that this means Adam was with Eve, right beside her, when she was tempted by the serpent at the forbidden tree. But that is not what the text really means. It only means that Adam was "with" Eve in the sense that he was her partner. Surely any thoughtful person can see that if Adam had been present, the serpent would have addressed his remarks to Adam, and surely some mention would have been made in the text of Adam saying something, if he had been there.

Now, going beyond what the text explicitly says, but being logical about the way human motivation would likely work in that situation, when Adam saw that Eve had eaten the forbidden fruit, he knew immediately that Eve had violated God's command, and there was a death sentence for that violation. What Adam did, the point where he really sinned, was when he doubted God's goodness and love, and thought that God would not save Eve unless Adam tried to manipulate God by forcing God either to spare Eve, or else kill them both. Thus he probably told himself that his deliberate eating of the forbidden fruit was unselfish, something he did for Eve's sake. He was trying to be Eve's savior. But Adam's supposed self-sacrifice for Eve turned into something less noble when a little later he tried to put the blame on Eve and on God, when he said, "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." (Gen. 3:12).

Also, please note that theologically, Adam and Eve were not co-heads of the human race. Eve was literally made from Adam, so Adam was her head, the same way that Adam is the head of every human being. For this reason too, the human race did not fall until Adam fell. He alone was the head of mankind.

[Robert]

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Also, please note that theologically, Adam and Eve were not co-heads of the human race. Eve was literally made from Adam, so Adam was her head, the same way that Adam is the head of every human being. For this reason too, the human race did not fall until Adam fell. He alone was the head of mankind.

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[Amelia]

Oh thank you Ron. I had never looked closely at that verse in that way before. Food for pondering.

[Neil D]

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Also, please note that theologically, Adam and Eve were not co-heads of the human race. Eve was literally made from Adam, so Adam was her head, the same way that Adam is the head of every human being. For this reason too, the human race did not fall until Adam fell. He alone was the head of mankind.

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Hmmmmm.....I suspect that there are assumptions made here....For example...where does it say that Adam is the head ? I see where he is the first...I see where he was made first...I see where Eve was made from Adam....But as for having authority....or control or governing or being the head.... I think I would like to see that.....

Again, if you see the fall of the human race as an ultimate 'whose fault is it?", then you are most likely to assign some one with control/responsiblity.... However, if you look at the genesis account as a general "this is how our first parents/couple/members of the human race fell", then I think you can see that there is enough blame for everyone, and not just one ultimate person.

I would suggest that Adam was the 'last and only hope " of mankind and he fell because he was love sick... Know any males who get love sick??? I know an extreme mumber of them who have been there and done that...In fact, I believe every male alive has gone done that road to some degree...

[Ron Lambert]

Neal, the following text makes it clear that Adam was the "federated head" of mankind: "For as in ADAM all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22) If we do not understand this, then we cannot understand the basis of salvation, because Christ saved us by means of taking Adam's place as the federated head of mankind. This is how He could ethically take responsibility for our sins and also create a new sinless heritage for the fallen race. Thus Paul calls Christ the "second man," contrasted to the "first man," Adam (see 1 Cor. 15:47).

The term "head" in this case is used in a theological sense. It does not connote authority, but rather responsibility. God created the human race by means of creating Adam. When Adam fell, mankind fell. Jesus had to become the Second Adam in order to save us.

[Neil D]

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... the following text makes it clear that Adam was the "federated head" of mankind: "For as in ADAM all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22) If we do not understand this, then we cannot understand the basis of salvation, because Christ saved us by means of taking Adam's place as the federated head of mankind. This is how He could ethically take responsibility for our sins and also create a new sinless heritage for the fallen race. Thus Paul calls Christ the "second man," contrasted to the "first man," Adam (see 1 Cor. 15:47).

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I hate to be stuborn about this, but I see no words regarding/indicating that Adam had responsiblity for the human race. All I see is that he was first. And yes, his choice affected all man kind thereafter...as all sin does affect others surrounding us when we committ it. But where is his responsiblity as the king of our race? Where is the authority or the headship that indicates ?

Don't get me wrong, Ron... I am not advocating an abandonment of traditional values....But if you are going to say that Adam had the ultimate responsibility for the fall of the human race, I will argue otherwise. And I can present an arguement that shows that there is enough blame to go around for the fall. Genisus shows that both man and woman fell to Satan's temptation and that there was nothing that they could do about it, as Satan played into thier characters to cause them to fall. I will not argue that Adam was humankinds last hope after Eve fell, but I will argue that Adam 'had his eyes wide open when he fell' [NOT!]. Dying for love is a lovesickness that closes one mind just as easily as a deception.

[Tom Wetmore]

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Ron Lambert said:

The term "head" in this case is used in a theological sense. It does not connote authority, but rather responsibility. God created the human race by means of creating Adam. When Adam fell, mankind fell. Jesus had to become the Second Adam in order to save us.

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Actually, if you carefully consider the head references in Scripture, you have to consider them for what they are - a metaphor. Take a look at 1 Corinthians 11:3, Christ the head of man, man the head of woman, God the head of Christ. Elsewhere, Paul of course develops the metaphor further by talking about the whole body of Christ, the church, of which Christ is the head. Now stop and think carefully about the head/body connection, and then apply it to the described relationships in the context of Paul's body parts working together discussion.

Consider first "God as head of Christ" in the context of how Christ described his relationship with the Father. He described them as "one". He said, "I and the Father are one... if you have seen me, you have seen the Father." Likewise, Jesus described marriage as complete oneness - "and the two shall become one flesh, which no one is to separate." Literally that says they become one single living organism. In John 17 Christ most earnestly prayed for complete unity - oneness - for his followers, even as he and the Father were completely in harmony and unity.

What is a body without a head? What is a head without a body? Can one exist or survive without the other? The brain depends on the heart and the heart depends on the brain. Neither can function without the other. They exist together as a unit, a single organism, working in harmony and of one accord. They cannot be separated. So it is with the relationship between a husband and wife, as God designed it and ordained it to be.

You are quite right that the term "head" does not connote "authority". But neither does it really connote responsibility. It is more about unity and oneness and completeness.

Tom

[Robert]

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Tom Wetmore said:

Actually, if you carefully consider the head references in Scripture, you have to consider them for what they are - a metaphor.

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But it is based on a truth! Take for example Romans 5:12

"Therefore, just as through one man [Adam - the head of the human race] sin entered into the world, and death through sin [i.e., "the wages of sin is death"], and so death spread to all men, [why?] because all sinned...."

That phrase, "because all sinned" refers to a past historical event. We sinned "in Adam"! Let me use an example:

Let's take a river. If I stand at the source of a river (where it begins) and pour barrels of arsenic into its crystal clean water, what happens down stream? Right...it contaminates all life.

When God created Adam He was not creating merely one man. The Bible states that, "From one man he made every nation of men." [Acts 17:26] So when the corporate head fell, the humanity that resided in him became contaminated. It came under the curse of the law.

That is why David could say, "I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." [Ps 51:5] Why? It was at conception where he, David, received Adam's fallen life...a life under the curse. And Paul states that we are "by nature objects of wrath." [Eph 2:3]

Where did we receive this fallen life indwelt with the principle of "self"? From Father Adam the corporate head.

"So then as through one transgression [Adam's sin] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's righteousness] there resulted justification of life to all men." [Romans 5:18]

"In Adam" - our corporate head - we come into this world condemned. "In Christ", through faith, we go from death to life. That's because "in Christ" [the 2nd Adam] He has reversed our fallen condition from the 1st Adam. He did this by assuming our corporate humanity under the curse and by His doing & dying He has completely reversed our situation "in Adam."

[Tom Wetmore]

Who said that a metaphor and truth are mutually exclusive?!?! The "truth" of the metaphor is precisely what I was talking about.

But, quite frankly we are not even talking about the same things. And I fail to see what your point is and how it is responsive to what I posted.

Tom