Is There Such A Thing As A Pure Seventh-day Adventist?

[Bravus]

How do we decide whether someone is a Seventh-day Adventist?

Does saying so count?

Does going to church and paying tithe count?

Does agreeing with every word of the 28 Fundamentals count?

Is it necessary to complete avoid all caffeine (including in chocolate)?

Is it necessary to be vegetarian, or only to avoid unclean meats?

What about wedding rings? Expensive watches? Other jewelry?

 

Is it necessary to believe in the Investigative Judgement, and that Jesus is currently sitting marking our homework and has been since 1844?

And so on.

Is there any individual human being who can completely, exactly, 100% be said to be a Seventh-day Adventist? 

Who makes that judgement?

 

[Aliensanctuary]

That seems like a good question for one of the hardliners to answer. I think there are still a few of them around.

[Sojourner]

I am not sure that there is neccesaraly anything hardline about it, I would suggest that a Seventh-day Adventist is simply someone who has either been baptised into the SDA or has been accepted as a member of the SDA by confession of faith.

[Liz]

 I think that if you align yourself more with the SDA doctrine and you yourself call yourself SDA then that is what you are. Just like if you align yourself up with Baptist teachings and you yourself call yourself Baptist, then who am I to contradict you?

 

However, when we label someone else as "pure" SDA then maybe we mean they are fanatics and no one wants to be labeled as a fanatic. But I think what we are really saying is because "they" are _______(blank) pick your favorite--vegetarian, no caffeine-drinking-chocolate-eating-jewelry-wearing-smoking-drinking-SDA and "we" are still working on something and "they" seem to have the victory and "we" do not; therefore, "they" must be fanatics.

 

Just my thoughts for right now.

[Sojourner]

 

How do we decide whether someone is a Seventh-day Adventist?

Does saying so count?

Does going to church and paying tithe count?

Does agreeing with every word of the 28 Fundamentals count?

Is it necessary to complete avoid all caffeine (including in chocolate)?

Is it necessary to be vegetarian, or only to avoid unclean meats?

What about wedding rings? Expensive watches? Other jewelry?

 

Is it necessary to believe in the Investigative Judgement, and that Jesus is currently sitting marking our homework and has been since 1844?

And so on.

Is there any individual human being who can completely, exactly, 100% be said to be a Seventh-day Adventist? 

Who makes that judgement?

I will have a go at your specific questions though,

1, Does saying so count? - Yes,

2a, Church Attendance, - Most memberships in community and other groups generally have an expectation of at least quarterly attendance to maintain membership. Common sense largely applies here.

2b, Tithe, - My understanding is that its "reccomended" not compulsory, so no on that one.

3, Agreeing with every word of the "fundmentals". I suspect it depends on how "fundamental" a person might be expected to be. I would come down on the side of your own sense of judgement, in my own case I was formerly a member of the Salvation Army and signed a doctrinal statement to be a member, yet I found that I no longer believed in eteral hell fire which put me at odds with the document that I had signed. I did not resign from it straight away, but over time I realized that I was in conflict over that one doctrine. It so happened that I moved over to the SDA. Had I not done that I am not sure what I would have done to be perfectly honest. I suspect I would have eventually acted on it although it would have been a lot harder to leave just on that one point.

4, Caffeine, Occurs naturally in Green Tea and other things proven good for you. No problem there.

5a, Vegetarian - No, Like Tithing the SDA has no requirement of anyone to be a Vegetarian.

5b, Unclean Meats - I guess you either agree or you do not. still, specifics may vary from person to person though such as eating blood in the meat or being kosher or so forth. I would be a little surprised if someone was a keen pork eater, but would not be surprised if someone took the view that they would eat whatever they are served in someone elses home as opposed to what they might buy for themselves for example. Whilst many will disagree, some suggest that Paul makes such a dispensation in the NT re meat offered to idols and the term "eat whatever" is used in a case like that.

6, Wedding Rings - Rings are scriptural as is Jewelery, so no problems there. Common sense suggests this might be a problem in any church group if it becomes a wealth addiction or issue with materialism.

7, Investigative Judgement - You do have a point there. In that I would suggest this doctrine has evolved over time and now has conflicting material available around about what it actually is. The issue is that according to the SDA when they spoke with Walter Martin on the subject, there is no record of wrongs kept in the heavenly sanctuary for believers, its all been dealt with at the cross, all past, present and future sins for the believers. Yet I am not sure that many older SDA's would agree with that only because I have not met enough of them, nor asked to find out. This then suggests to me that any judgement taking place has to be on behalf of people that are not born again but potentially Godly people that have responded to God without the knowledge of Jesus Christ. I am not keen on enshrining something like that into doctrine however because its more based on supposition at that point than anything else.

[Bravus]

Thanks, all, for your responses. A number of interesting ideas.

I think one potentially interesting one is - what if someone was baptised on the basis of agreement with the 27 Fundamentals, but now there are 28? Is the membership still valid? It's possible the person disagrees with the new one (though there was some rearrangement and rewriting rather than just the addition of one). 

What if those seeking a much tighter, literal recent creationist version of that particular Fundamental get their way and get a rewrite? Will that immediately mean tens of thousands of SDAs are no longer SDAs?

[Bravus]

Hi Liz - yeah, I see that point when I'm driving: everyone who drives faster than I choose to is a crazy reckless loon, everyone who drives slower is an over-cautious impediment! (I try to resist these characterisations on my part!)

Perhaps we can all be gentler on our 'fanatics' and 'liberals'... realising that their positions are only where they are relative to where we are. Someone who is a 'leftist' in American politics is likely a centrist or rightist in Australian politics and is far to the right in Chinese politics!

So perhaps making our own judgements about ourselves, rather than others, is key.

[Bravus]

Also yes, IMO membership of the SDA club is different and less important than membership of the Jesus club. One can be a member of both, but it's far from inevitable, and there are many people who are members of one but not the other.

IMO also, membership of the 'I'm saved' club is even less important, in that it tends to be a bit of a selfish impulse and that it's also not something we can know for sure.

Being someone who simply follows Jesus - does as he did, does as he says - will lead to a good life for us and those around us.

[JoeMo]

I am committed to the Sabbath.  I believe in (and yearn for) the 2nd coming of Christ. I suppose that makes me at least a generic SDA. I have no problem with the spirit of the 28 fundamentals; but I'm not convicted on certain details like the investigative judgement and 1844.

 

I agree with some of the above comments that being a pure SDA is a relative thing.

[LifeHiscost]

 'I'm saved' .... it's also not something we can know for sure.

 

I can understand then, why you wouldn't feel this way below even though they are promises especially for the gentiles as Paul was indicating himself.

 

…7But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised 8(for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles), 9and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.…Gal 2

 

…27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. ...Hebrews 9

 

…8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness . 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us....1 John 1

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Kevin H]

When the community of Washington was being incorporated, the members could not agree on what their church should be. Some wanted a very orthodox church with people preaching who toed the party line. Others wanted a church where anyone who felt that they had a message was free to preach and the members could make up their own minds and be free to worship according to the dictates of their conscience. Therefore they decided to have two churches. One with set beliefs and one where people could listen and make their own set of beliefs based on their understanding of the evidence.

 

While there may have been churches in Seventh-day Baptist communities that may actually have been Adventists keeping the Sabbath prior Washington NH, the dates of their start has been lost and we consider the Washington NH church which allowed a wide range of beliefs to be the first Seventh-day Adventist Church.

 

Then our pioneers came from many backgrounds. What they had in common was that they were kicked out of their churches for their belief in the Advent, and they wanted to form a church where they were free to worship as their conscience dictated without being kicked out. They agreed upon a few landmarks, and were against fanaticism. That was the agreement. This unity in diversity is what our pioneers saw as true Adventism.

[lazarus]

Thanks, all, for your responses. A number of interesting ideas.

I think one potentially interesting one is - what if someone was baptised on the basis of agreement with the 27 Fundamentals, but now there are 28? Is the membership still valid? It's possible the person disagrees with the new one (though there was some rearrangement and rewriting rather than just the addition of one). 

What if those seeking a much tighter, literal recent creationist version of that particular Fundamental get their way and get a rewrite? Will that immediately mean tens of thousands of SDAs are no longer SDAs?

 

This is interesting because I am quite sure that many SDA's don't even know that there are now 28 and if they do they cannot articulate what number 28 is. In my experience as a pastor I believe we are now in a situation where many church members are less interested in the doctrine/organization and are more interested in the relationships and the experience of church. To many young adults church membership is irrelevant and so now the question is "do I belong here?" The "rules" about church have changed. This has affected Sabbath School, Worship Service, and AY. Consequently, two out of the three that I've just mentioned struggle to exist in most churches. More of our churches in NAD will struggle to exist in future because we think we are still operating under the same rules as we did even 20 years ago.

 

The General conference leadership and the church in general is DEBATING whether to close the door after the horse has already bolted, and is eating hay, in a field, 50 miles away. The women's ordination fight, IMHO,  is simply a symptom of a wider shift has already taken place in the church. My simple answer to Bravus' question is no but what remains is whether the world church leadership will seek to create that reality. If it does it will be messy.

[Aliensanctuary]

Perhaps by considering lists similar to the one Bravus posted, those who have left, or will leave, the organization, especially the youth, realize that there is little in it for them by joining a religious club. Although some churches do their best to entertain, they cannot compete with the amusements and diversions offered by Babylon. Church attendance, to many, including myself, is just a profound waste of time. More and more youth will turn away from churches as they are indoctrinated by the public schools to discard religion, to embrace a Godless story of the beginning of life, and ultimately, to reject the teachings of Christ.

 

I think the Kingdom of YHVH has been bastardized by the churches of the world, all having their lists, likely no two alike. Joining the Kingdom of YHVH, though, involves the sacrifice of selfishness, the full-time dedication to its principles, and a profound reverence for the Creator. The Kingdom of YHVH is not a religion, but a system used to govern the Earth and the rest of the inhabited worlds, wherever they might be. There is a great reward for those who accept the terms of membership, while those who reject it cannot be allowed to perpetuate their Kingdom of Evil forever.

 

Once we understand the Kingdom of YHVH and follow its principles, the demonic fires of persecution will arise to destroy all who belong, but the flames will only add more members. At last, there will be something worth dying for, not some ill-conceived reward of 72 virgins for mass-murderers and suicide bombers, but a great reward for those faithful to the Kingdom, even unto death. Our churches today cannot impress anyone with the majesty of the Kingdom of YHVH, and so they muddle on, the wimpy sermons falling to the ground in front of the members and the prayers bouncing off the ceilings until the Day of the LORD arrives.

[Aliensanctuary]

Although the religions of today are mainly focused on taking in money, including the SDA religion, even Jesus made a number of illustrative references to business and wise investments when teaching about his Kingdom.

 

Any business must be able to control its workers and ensure that they complete their tasks and get along well with each other. Any business should expect that its workers would be loyal to the company and its CEO and terminate those who refuse to abide by its code of ethics or openly disrespect the management. A good business model would likely reward the employees who exceed their goals or make the company more efficient and profitable by adding more customers.

 

The Kingdom of YHVH is actually a business, too, even though many have turned it into a religion complete with myths and magic. In the Kingdom, those employees who are loyal to the death to the CEO and the company, who abide by the company's code of ethics, get along well with everyone, and add more customers will be rewarded beyond human expectations. Those who wish to join the Kingdom of YHVH and become permanent employees must conduct themselves as if they were already hired, even though their current contract is conditional.

 

The Kingdom of YHVH isn't about angels floating around with wings and sitting on clouds, neither is it about petting friendly animals while on a perpetual vacation. The Kingdom of YHVH is about a job in the next life, probably agricultural for most humans in a crop-sharing arrangement. In exchange for land, tools, and perfect health, the tenant pays a tenth of all crops to the masters of the Kingdom in order to support those who work in the control center in the city ("Temple"). Human tenants might very well consider themselves as indentured servants. In exchange for the price paid to get them into the Kingdom, they will work six days out of seven to grow and harvest crops and raise animals to sustain themselves and make a contribution to support management.

 

Even though much has been said about magic and miracles in the Bible, there is no magic anywhere in the universe, only technology, perhaps millions or billions of years old, so advanced that we have little clue about how it works. We can dump the religions, or change them at least, to reflect what the Kingdom of YHVH really is.

 

Join the Kingdom of YHVH today.

 

Recruiters are standing by to take your call.

[CoAspen]

   

[Gail]

Bravus, where is your heart? That is where home is. Does your heart long for Jesus, or for the church, or for the world, or for nothing? One can be many things on the outside but God knows your heart.

[Bravus]

My heart longs for two things - my family and the truth. That's it: pretty simple!

I'm afraid that much of what would constitute being a 'pure SDA' no longer appears to me as truth. I'm sure I'll get beaten with the Scripture stick for that, but it is what it is. 

 

I've probably said it before, but 'is it or isn't it?' questions are tedious and pointless to me. 'Is it or isn't it art?' or 'Is it or isn't it science?' - they're about definitions, and since people have different definitions these debates can never be resolved.

Is s/he or isn't s/he an SDA? is a similarly bootless argument. My own inclination would be to leave it between the person and God.

If someone is human they deserve my full love and respect. If someone is a good person, I want that person around me. The brand matters not a whit.

[Bravus]

I should explain - I said these kinds of questions are boring, but started the thread with one!

My point was that tightening the by-laws of the club is counterproductive. Jesus' attitude was 'go out to the highways and byways and compel them to come in', not 'find arcane rules to keep them out'. Deciding that others don't get to be in the club because they are not like us is the direct opposite of what He stood for and stands for. 

[LifeHiscost]

How do we decide whether someone is a Seventh-day Adventist?

Who makes that judgement?

 

…16So Jesus answered them and said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17"If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself. 18"He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who is seeking the glory of the One who sent Him, He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.…John 7

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Bravus]

Seems to be a bit of a 'live issue' at the moment: http://atoday.org/adventists-name.html

[Gail]

 My own inclination would be to leave it between the person and God.

 

Can I extend to you the same leeway?  

 

It is interesting that in times of persecution the commonalities hold a group together. In times of relative ease we don't have that glue. As the dynamics change and people in society change their world views the church can expect to deal with it.

 

Indeed, this week I was in a conversation where the topic was, Why have faith at all?

[LifeHiscost]

 

Indeed, this week I was in a conversation where the topic was, Why have faith at all?

One thing seems to be sure. If one has a happy experience in their relationship with Christ, there is no shortage of those who will exert a lot of energy trying to prove the reasoning to be wrong, whether or not it's based on the Word. Considering what happened to all of God's (Jesus') followers, I would suggest there is a dark force behind the efforts.

 

…11Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.…Ephesians 6

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Haldog]

I think this is inconsequential. Am I saved is what matters and I have that blessed assurance. Jesus doesn't care what label I or someone else puts on me, only that He found me. He is in me and I am in Him.

[anto]

Well I wouldn't qualify if the criterion was all of those things combined, but they let me in the door each Sabbath so I keep turning up - most Sabbaths anyway.

I expect the way my beliefs diverge from the official FBs might give some concern to our pastor but so far he hasn't said anything to me about finding somewhere that might be a better match.  

If it comes to that I will stop going there, I don't want to upset anyone, but in the meantime I appreciate being able to take part in our weekly discussions and hear my friends passionately professing their faith and love for Jesus.  I always come away feeling uplifted by the experience.  The rest of the week most of the people I mix with are unbelievers and I really look forward to my once a week breath of fresh air.  

I have tried other churches  and they're OK too but the SDAs, my local one at least, has something the others don't have.  Maybe it's just because I've got to know the people there and enjoy their company, they're the first church I went to after opting out of atheism nine years ago.  Back then the FBs seemed fair enough, given that I was very new to religion, but over the years I've come to question the odd one or 2.

[mensk]

Tell us Bravus, what makes you, just you specifically, a Seventh Day Adventist?