Can you by understanding find out God

[Lauralea]

One underlying theme of many doubting Divine intervention or various Biblical miracles including young earth Creation is that because we have not observed something it does not exist. Can we as human beings living in the 21st century A. D. expect to understand all things spiritual or is it reasonable to expect this? 

If we lived 400 years ago and could see much of the technology in use today, such as cell phones, we might think that we were observing witchcraft. If a doctor living in the 1700's was told that heart transplants would one day take place he would be unlikely to believe it. My grandmother, who used to bring her farm produce to town to sell in a horse and buggy, lived to watch men walk on the moon. The scientific findings of today would be beyond belief 130 years ago. So why do we assume we can understand all things spiritual? Do we think our intelligence quotients, even if they are high for our day and time, are higher than those of angels? Can we understand how the good ones work and how they bring help to human beings, or how the bad ones work? Do we think we are as knowledgeable as they? 

Or is there a role for faith in not assuming we can understand all of the technical aspects of spiritual things, because we do not have the knowledge, the background, or at times even the intellect, to understand it all? What we can have is wisdom, the wisdom of trusting God. But knowledge is relative.

[Lauralea]

Yes that is true dgrimm. It requires more than our intellectual understanding. It requires the Holy Spirit and faith as well as the Bible,

[Aliensanctuary]

Rather than imprisoning our minds by the interpretations of religious or scientific dogma, we should keep them open to possibilities beyond what we can currently understand.

[Lauralea]

We should keep them open to things that are in harmony with the Bible even if we do not understand them.  It says to prove all things, hold fast that which is good.

[teresaq]

How long was the earth here "formless and void"? If the combination of evil angels and we humans return it to that state somewhat, what did the original state look like (which of course we have to wait and see the destruction of this earth by natural and unnatural means)?

 

If the bible states the earth was here, "formless and void", does it then state this is not a young earth? Rather, what was created on it was/is "young" comparatively speaking?

[LifeHiscost]

One underlying theme of many doubting Divine intervention or various Biblical miracles including young earth Creation is that because we have not observed something it does not exist. Can we as human beings living in the 21st century A. D. expect to understand all things spiritual or is it reasonable to expect this? 

If we lived 400 years ago and could see much of the technology in use today, such as cell phones, we might think that we were observing witchcraft. If a doctor living in the 1700's was told that heart transplants would one day take place he would be unlikely to believe it. My grandmother, who used to bring her farm produce to town to sell in a horse and buggy, lived to watch men walk on the moon. The scientific findings of today would be beyond belief 130 years ago. So why do we assume we can understand all things spiritual? Do we think our intelligence quotients, even if they are high for our day and time, are higher than those of angels? Can we understand how the good ones work and how they bring help to human beings, or how the bad ones work? Do we think we are as knowledgeable as they? 

Or is there a role for faith in not assuming we can understand all of the technical aspects of spiritual things, because we do not have the knowledge, the background, or at times even the intellect, to understand it all? What we can have is wisdom, the wisdom of trusting God. But knowledge is relative.

:announce:  That deserves a lot of these.

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!

[Lauralea]

How long was the earth here "formless and void"? If the combination of evil angels and we humans return it to that state somewhat, what did the original state look like (which of course we have to wait and see the destruction of this earth by natural and unnatural means)?

 

If the bible states the earth was here, "formless and void", does it then state this is not a young earth? Rather, what was created on it was/is "young" comparatively speaking?

 

 

 

 

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. Gnenesis 1 NIV

 

 

No reason to hit Pause between verse 1 and 2 or 2 and 3. The text as it reads is God made the Earth it was formless and void then God made light for the Earth. Ellen White says God was not dependent on preexisting matter in creating Earth.  And she says the Earth was created in six literal days. Not in vast periods of time. So the Earth was formless and void for less than 1 day.

 

If the bible states the earth was here, "formless and void", does it then state this is not a young earth? Rather, what was created on it was/is "young" comparatively speaking?

No these are all describing what happened to the Earth on Day One of the creation of this planet according to Ellen White and in the most straightforward reading of the verses,, Otherwise the Spirit of God would have been over the waters of a desolate planet for eons. And water completely covered the planet- thus no geological aging due to wind etc. would have take place at all during this time. What does help to explain the older appearance of the Earth is the universal flood. Interestingly, other cultures also describe the flood.

 

If the combination of evil angels and we humans return it to that state somewhat, what did the original state look like (which of course we have to wait and see the destruction of this earth by natural and unnatural means)?

We cannot infer that the state of  the world damaged by humans and evil angels is the same as or similar to before God said let there be light. There were no plants and no food. It was covered with water. We could not live. Since humans will be alive until Jesus comes back it will not be like that. Probably the Flood was the closest this world will ever get to its initial state. And we have God's promise this will never happen again.

 

[teresaq]

I take it you weren't aware of this statement?

 

 

That the expression “bottomless pit” represents the earth in a state of confusion and darkness is evident from other scriptures. Concerning the condition of the earth “in the beginning,” the Bible record says that it “was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.” [The Hebrew word here translated “deep” is rendered in the Septuagint (Greek) translation of the Hebrew Old Testament by the same word rendered “bottomless pit” In Revelation 20:1-3.] Genesis 1:2. Prophecy teaches that it will be brought back, partially at least, to this condition. Looking forward to the great day of God, the prophet Jeremiah declares: “I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down.” Jeremiah 4:23-26. {GC 658.3}

EGW doesn't seem to understand the term "without form and void" the way we have become accustomed to understanding it. It is quite clear we do not know what we think we know and need to study more. I don't believe even the rest of our pioneers (besides EGW) understood the intent of the text to be as it has morphed over the years in coming down to us.

[Lauralea]

I take it you weren't aware of this statement?

EGW doesn't seem to understand the term "without form and void" the way we have become accustomed to understanding it. It is quite clear we do not know what we think we know and need to study more. I don't believe even the rest of our pioneers (besides EGW) understood the intent of the text to be as it has morphed over the years in coming down to us.

[Lauralea]

This is referring to what will happen in the great day of the Lord. It does not refer to humans ecologically destroying the Earth or to what evil angels will do but to what God will do at the second coming. It says right in the text no humans will be alive then and humans will be alive until Jesus comes. Studying the Bible more is very important for all of us I agree but while I had not been thinking of this Bible passage which I know still it is about God acting. The hills will move the sea will boil the sun will shine at midnight the graves will open and it is my hope we will rise in the air to meet Jesus.

[teresaq]

Hmmm, OK. And that has what exactly to do with the earth being "without form and void" both at creation and the second coming? 

 

 

 

Oh, and another text you also may not be aware of.

 

Revelation 11:18

And the nations were angry, ... and (you) shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

But this is looking strongly like another case of the need to be right regardless, so I'll be moving on.

[Lauralea]

Well you asked about how what man and evil angels had done would make Earth like it was on day one. The second coming refers to something God does.

Actually though in another sense this is all an aside to the original question posed on this thread.

 

One underlying theme of many doubting Divine intervention or various Biblical miracles including young earth Creation is that because we have not observed something it does not exist. Can we as human beings living in the 21st century A. D. expect to understand all things spiritual or is it reasonable to expect this?

[Gail]

I like that you have expressed the idea that God is much larger than what we have thus far experienced or explored.

I remember reading a quote from Einstein to the effect that a scientist is limited by the number of questions he can come up with. That really spoke to me of his reality, how small this great man really viewed himself

[Lauralea]

God's knowledge is infinite but ours is finite, not only limited by what has been revealed to us or scientific discoveries, but by our capacity to understand, which is developed by a study of His word.

[JoeMo]

God's knowledge is infinite but ours is finite, not only limited by what has been revealed to us or scientific discoveries, but by our capacity to understand, which is developed by a study of His word.

Amen!  But the study of the Word will teach us nothing without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.  We don't think like God; and He doesn't think like us.  Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.  Without the aid of the Spirit, the best understanding we can Have is human understanding.  We need both the Word (Logos) and Spirit (Rhema) to understand God.

[Lauralea]

Amen!  But the study of the Word will teach us nothing without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.  We don't think like God; and He doesn't think like us.  Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.  Without the aid of the Spirit, the best understanding we can Have is human understanding.  We need both the Word (Logos) and Spirit (Rhema) to understand God.

Yes it is true we need His Spirit to understand the Word. Although we do not think like God in our sinful nature, we were originally created to think like Him, not exactly of course but in His image. I remember reading a quote about how He is seeking to restore His image in us.

[JoeMo]

Lauralea said:

"I remember reading a quote about how He is seeking to restore His image in us."

 

I remember an EGW quote that said something like "when Jesus' image is perfectly reproduced in His people, He will come to take them home."  I personally don't think that will happen until we are "changed" at His Coming.

[Lauralea]

Lauralea said:

"I remember reading a quote about how He is seeking to restore His image in us."

 

I remember an EGW quote that said something like "when Jesus' image is perfectly reproduced in His people, He will come to take them home."  I personally don't think that will happen until we are "changed" at His Coming.

I know it is beyond our comprehension, but He will do a lot of things we cannot understand. Raise the dead, take them without spaceships through Orion in a week, bruise Satan under our feet, bring the City of God down from Heaven... I think I need to cooperate with Him and allow Him to change me through His Spirit and His word.

[Stewart (SDA)]

I enjoyed reading the Opening Post. Thank you very much!

 

It brings to mind a thought about the glory of Jesus.

 

"It is by faith that the spiritual eye beholds the glory of Jesus. This glory is hidden until the Lord imparts the light of spiritual truth, for the eye of reason cannot see it. The glory and mystery of Christ remains incomprehensible, clouded by its excessive brightness, until the Lord flashes its meaning before the soul." (That I May Know Him p.61)

 

The "eye of reason" alone, will never be able to see the glory of Jesus.

 

In the 1700's the French nation deified "Reason". They imagined that "Reason" would be all-sufficient. Reason would save them, and Reason would glorify them, but of course it did no such thing.

 

People in the churches have often gloried in the thought that they could "reason out" the things of God... tight logic and rationale will be enough (so some imagined). But this has never been true. The eye of reason is incapable of seeing/comprehending the deep things of God.

 

Faith is the primary tool whereby we may comprehend the things of God. Yes, reason must be employed, but faith hears the tone in Jesus' voice, and grasps something of the thoughts and intents of His heart.

[Lauralea]

I enjoyed reading the Opening Post. Thank you very much!

 

It brings to mind a thought about the glory of Jesus.

 

"It is by faith that the spiritual eye beholds the glory of Jesus. This glory is hidden until the Lord imparts the light of spiritual truth, for the eye of reason cannot see it. The glory and mystery of Christ remains incomprehensible, clouded by its excessive brightness, until the Lord flashes its meaning before the soul." (That I May Know Him p.61)

 

The "eye of reason" alone, will never be able to see the glory of Jesus.

 

In the 1700's the French nation deified "Reason". They imagined that "Reason" would be all-sufficient. Reason would save them, and Reason would glorify them, but of course it did no such thing.

 

People in the churches have often gloried in the thought that they could "reason out" the things of God... tight logic and rationale will be enough (so some imagined). But this has never been true. The eye of reason is incapable of seeing/comprehending the deep things of God.

 

Faith is the primary tool whereby we may comprehend the things of God. Yes, reason must be employed, but faith hears the tone in Jesus' voice, and grasps something of the thoughts and intents of His heart.

I'm glad you found it useful. So true the eye of reason cannot comprehend the things of God. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, and the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. We need to follow the guidance of the Lord, and while at times this may be similar in some ways to wisdom known on Earth as in the book of Proverbs, often it is not. We need the love compassion and mercy of God, His faith trust and power.